By the hundreds. Esp those AI set to defender, unfortunately the AI is stupid. Some factions particularly the Centauri have a better time of it as their mine detection ships are part of the battle line. The Vorlon lose their drones quickly as the new mine blast outranges their weapon. I'll have to look at tweaking across all races. But then clearing mine fields should be hard work! It would need a lot more testing to determine where there is an actual problem, drones are cheap after all and so fast they still manage to clear several mines each before dying.

CannonShells are not abilities though they apply Buffs, are not frigates and we have only one instance where we have needed a new one previously to this. I can't find the entity file in the latest DB but it is in game.

I haven't given you Death Cloud Ability D yet and used a work around in the finish conditions buff tab to get what a wanted so it may or may not be needed. We are getting close to completing the ship abilities. Planet modules and star bases except for EA haven't really been addressed so if it is an easy fix is probably worth doing.

Assuming research priority 0 = don't research, then that would explain why the Vorlon most games just sat there, almost all their research was priority 0.000000. Shadow weren't much better. Next scrub the abilities... augh!

TobiWahn,

Following the advise of the AI forum discussion I set isAutoCastOnByDefault to TRUE in every instance except where the ability was passive or both AiUseTime and aiUseTargetCondition where both set to Invalid. I recommend extreme caution when importing these changes and recommend additionally making a second database just to be sure we don't inadvertently repeat the ability issue from our earlier efforts. Assuming Delnar_Erskine is correct in his posting these changes should improve AI use of abilities. I'll send this and the research priority reset as it's own commit just to minimize potential unintended consequences.

Will be remedied in the next build

My apologies to those who have tried to play the Shadow or Vorlon up to this point. Neither race has received the attention both deserve and neither are as of yet well organized or balanced. It will take time to balance them against each other and that achieved to strike the correct scale against the other races. When we are done playing either will result in an easy game and playing against them should be hard. Our mod makes no pretentions of fairness, some factions are better than others at various points in the tech tree progression.

I deem it impossible to have a completely balanced game. But we try (well, Darvroth does )

Long day of balance testing due to sick kids and missed work.

Results thus far: Edit: Previous balance work focused on a narrow mechanic (like effectiveness against fighters), or even fighter vs. fighter and assumed the assigned logistic point total for each ship was close to accurate. Testing with a wider net that was a patently false assumption. Some ships were undervalued, some over valued. I'm attempting to strike a balance as advances in the tech tree alter the relative balance as the game progresses. As a general rule later game ships are better than earlier game ships with the same log value.

Haven: Shockingly best corvette currently in the game. Wide field of fire means in can engage (multiple) targets while turning.

V Drone: Almost the worst corvette and that was after I increased the DPS and reduced the logistic points. Narrow field of fire means lots of time not shooting and even when it does, a single attack run is only five pulses (or near enough). Expect lots and lots of attrition, but heh they are cheap. The high rate of fire coupled with low damage keeps the targets shield mitigation at or near max which doesn't help. Conversely, a single high damage hit on the V Drone means mitigation is minimal and due to its very low hull, simply pops. That is ok in my mind as the V Destroyer does about the same to every other frigate. The V Drone does very well in some settings (Mmmmm, fighters!)

Centauri have some dark horse frigates that were able to toe-to-toe with the Minbari, Shadow and Vorlon using logistic point totals as the benchmark.

Shadow Stalker and Vorlon Destroyer are (now) reasonably balanced against each other (and it isn't 1:1) but are butchers against everything else. Still need lots of testing here.

There are some very frustrating AI behaviors that I'm finding it hard to balance for.

Example: frigateRoleType "AntiModule" overrides all other scripts, if there are enemy modules the ship is aggressive, if there aren't it sits there and stupidly dies. This holds even when canOnlyTargetStructures is FALSE. 

Example: weapon range has an impact on how the ship behaves in combat (keeps it's distance or closes to slug it out) and I haven't cracked the nut. This matters a lot as most ships have a mix of long range and shorter range weapons.

The Shadow Carrier is scary, frightening and the stuff of nightmares and that was just one ship. It singly handedly slaughtered every group of similarly log pointed frigates I threw at it. This strongly hints I'm not yet near the log point balance.

The Shadow Scout was probably the most undervalued frigate in the game. I increased the log total from 10 to 15 and it still continues to slaughter similarly pointed frigate groups. Clearly more testing is required.

As a side note I keep finding typos and strange data markers in the entity files (and the DB) that point to late night bleary eyed modding; some of these errors are clearly mine...

I'm noticing a lot of tail chasing as many ships lack stern guns. This is particularly pronounced when speeds are well matched and is leading to some irritating AI behaviors. Many fighters are also so speed bound. My recommendation is to increase the maxSpeedLinear of all fighters by 10% which preserves the balancing work of earlier efforts by maintaining the existing speed ratios. This also has the benefit of nipping many tail chases in the bud so to speak.

It is apparent numbers matter, a lot. Moreover the AI prioritizes capital ships so the Elder races with their uber tough death beam wielding capital ships are vulnerable to fleets with many more ships. Showing up with a few caps and support ships against the Elder races is a swift path to join your ancestors. Show up with a hoard of frigates and you have an excellent chance of winning though not without casualties. The Vorlon destroyer and the Shadow Stalker deal out damage as well as or better than many other races capital ships so those ships in numbers are really, really tough to beat. The best option at that point is to wear them down and hope you can replace losses faster than they can.

I need to investigate fighters more carefully, I'm not observing that much of an impact. Bombers with their antiMedium attack do still back some punch. More to follow.

Comments on fighters:

- Fighter speed is as important as weapon damage. Frigates of all races have a maxSpeedLinear that range between 300 - 650. Most have maxSpeedLinear 500. This means that a fighter that is slower than 500 has no reasonable chance to catch the majority of frigates. The strafing attack sequence of fighters requires covering more distance per attack than the typical frigate combat maneuvering. The faster frigates tend to be corvettes, scouts or are purpose built strike ships. The slower frigates are utility or are older Younger race designs. Taken together a fighter must be able overtake escaping frigates and still retain enough speed to conduct strafing runs. SoaSE strike craft have maxSpeedLinear 2700.000000 for comparison.

- Due to weapon range and strafing maneuvers most fighters have only a single firing opportunity per strafing run, some fast firing like the Minbari have more firing cycles per strafing run but the number varies on the attack angle relative to the target movement and the overall difference in speed between the target and the attacker. A faster fighter may have fewer firing cycles per strafing run but will make more attack runs overtime. Generally fighters spend most of their time maneuvering and not actively attacking and do significantly less damage than the DPS would otherwise indicate.

Weapon damage is generally ANTIVERYLIGHT though there are some exceptions. Most fighter gun damage does minimal damage against the majority of frigates and even less when strafing attacks are considered. Missile attacks are generally ANTIMEDIUM and are far more effective against frigates. By way of example:

Eight squadrons of EA Nova against 3 Centauri Kutai took 15 min and 8 sec to destroy all three frigates and the Kutai can't engage strike craft.

Eight squadrons of EA Aurora against 3 Centauri Kutai took 5 min and 57 sec to destroy all three frigates, the main difference is the speed advantage of the Aurora.

Eight squadrons of EA Badgers against 3 Centauri Kutai took only 58 seconds essentially two passes per frigate, one with missile and guns and the second with just guns while the cooldown time for the missile weapon ticked down. The key difference here is the Badger is equipped with an ANTIMEDIUM missile DamagePerBank:FRONT 30.000000 against the LIGHT armor of the Kutai.

Currently there is not a significant speed difference between bomber and pure gun fighters, SoaSE has a significant delta ~1200 maxSpeedLinear. The EA have five generations of fighters, the Narn, Centauri and Minbari 3 each and the Vorlon and Shadow only one fighter each. I'll run a bunch of iterations on speed and weapon damage variations from the current base and make a proposal on balance.

And here I thought we'd finished balancing fighters 2 years ago...

Modders,

I've hit a snag the EA Avenger sits there stupidly and dies under every scenario, it does not fire any weapon except when expressly directed to attack a target then will resume its passive posture once that target is destroyed. It will also sit passively while it is attacked even if the attackers are in its weapon range:

entityType "Frigate"
defaultAutoAttackRange "GravityWell"
defaultAutoAttackOn TRUE
prefersToFocusFire TRUE
usesFighterAttack FALSE
autoJoinFleetDefault TRUE
canBomb FALSE
typeCount 2
frigateRoleType "AntiFighter"
frigateRoleType "Carrier"
statCountType "FrigateCarrier"

m_weaponIndexForRange 0
firingAlignmentType "Default"
TargetCountPerBank:FRONT 1
TargetCountPerBank:BACK 1
TargetCountPerBank:LEFT 1
TargetCountPerBank:RIGHT 1
canOnlyTargetStructures FALSE

formationRank 2

It has the same basic set up as the other race FrigateCarrier, while they are aggressive, it is passive. Any assistance pointing me to the why would be very appreciated.

I know I ran into this with Retribution at one point... it was with a capital ship that had nothing related to carriers. I forget why, though. What are the weapon specs?

It **might** be the frigateRoleType. The EA Avenger only has a frigateRoleType of Carrier, which in Sins are all unarmed, so just sit around spawning strike craft.

Shadow, Centauri, Narn carriers have secondary frigateRoleTypes of Heavy or AntiFighter, which might explain why they're eager to engage in combat. However the Minbari's Morshin carrier only has a roleType of Carrier like the Avenger - does that just sit there too?

apologize up front for the wall, but you asked...

NumWeapons 3
Weapon
 WeaponType "Projectile"
 damageEnums
  AttackType "CAPITALSHIP"
  DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
  DamageApplyType "BACKLOADED"
  DamageType "ENERGY"
  WeaponClassType "PLASMA"
 DamagePerBank:FRONT 190.000000
 DamagePerBank:BACK 0.000000
 DamagePerBank:LEFT 0.000000
 DamagePerBank:RIGHT 0.000000
 Range 2600.000000
 PreBuffCooldownTime 6.000000
 CanFireAtFighter FALSE
 SynchronizedTargeting FALSE
 PointStaggerDelay 0.000000
 TravelSpeed 3600.000000
 Duration 0.000000
 fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire"
 WeaponEffects
  weaponType "Projectile"
  burstCount 4
  burstDelay 0.200000
  fireDelay 0.000000
  muzzleEffectName "Weapon_PsiCapitalPlasmaMedium_Muzzle"
  muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 0.210000
  muzzleSounds
   soundCount 3
   sound "WEAPON_PSICAPITALPLASMAMEDIUM_MUZZLE"
   sound "WEAPON_PSICAPITALPLASMAMEDIUM_MUZZLE_ALT1"
   sound "WEAPON_PSICAPITALPLASMAMEDIUM_MUZZLE_ALT2"
  hitEffectName "Weapon_PsiCapitalPlasmaMedium_Hit"
  hitHullEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_ENERGYMEDIUM_HITHULL"
  hitShieldsEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_GENERICMEDIUM_HITSHIELDS"
  projectileTravelEffectName "Weapon_PsiCapitalPlasmaMedium_Travel"
Weapon
 WeaponType "Projectile"
 damageEnums
  AttackType "ANTILIGHT"
  DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
  DamageApplyType "BACKLOADED"
  DamageType "ENERGY"
  WeaponClassType "PULSEGUN"
 DamagePerBank:FRONT 120.000000
 DamagePerBank:BACK 120.000000
 DamagePerBank:LEFT 0.000000
 DamagePerBank:RIGHT 0.000000
 Range 1600.000000
 PreBuffCooldownTime 3.000000
 CanFireAtFighter TRUE
 SynchronizedTargeting FALSE
 PointStaggerDelay 0.000000
 TravelSpeed 3600.000000
 Duration 0.000000
 fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire"
 WeaponEffects
  weaponType "Projectile"
  burstCount 8
  burstDelay 0.020000
  fireDelay 0.000000
  muzzleEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunMedium_Muzzle"
  muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 1.000000
  muzzleSounds
   soundCount 3
   sound "WEAPON_TECHCAPITALLASERMEDIUM_MUZZLE"
   sound "WEAPON_TECHCAPITALLASERMEDIUM_MUZZLE_ALT1"
   sound "WEAPON_TECHCAPITALLASERMEDIUM_MUZZLE_ALT2"
  hitEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunMedium_Hit"
  hitHullEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_ENERGYMEDIUM_HITHULL"
  hitShieldsEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_GENERICMEDIUM_HITSHIELDS"
  projectileTravelEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunMedium_Travel"
Weapon
 WeaponType "Projectile"
 damageEnums
  AttackType "ANTILIGHT"
  DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
  DamageApplyType "BACKLOADED"
  DamageType "ENERGY"
  WeaponClassType "PULSEGUN"
 DamagePerBank:FRONT 0.000000
 DamagePerBank:BACK 0.000000
 DamagePerBank:LEFT 120.000000
 DamagePerBank:RIGHT 120.000000
 Range 1600.000000
 PreBuffCooldownTime 3.000000
 CanFireAtFighter TRUE
 SynchronizedTargeting FALSE
 PointStaggerDelay 0.000000
 TravelSpeed 3600.000000
 Duration 0.000000
 fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire"
 WeaponEffects
  weaponType "Projectile"
  burstCount 8
  burstDelay 0.020000
  fireDelay 0.000000
  muzzleEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunMedium_Muzzle"
  muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 1.000000
  muzzleSounds
   soundCount 3
   sound "WEAPON_TECHCAPITALLASERMEDIUM_MUZZLE"
   sound "WEAPON_TECHCAPITALLASERMEDIUM_MUZZLE_ALT1"
   sound "WEAPON_TECHCAPITALLASERMEDIUM_MUZZLE_ALT2"
  hitEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunMedium_Hit"
  hitHullEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_ENERGYMEDIUM_HITHULL"
  hitShieldsEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_GENERICMEDIUM_HITSHIELDS"
  projectileTravelEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunMedium_Travel"
m_weaponIndexForRange 0
firingAlignmentType "Default"

I thought it might be the same so I added frigateRoleType AntiFighter, which didn't help. I extended the primary weapon range to a known good distance, no joy. I changed the formationRank, nope. I threw every flavor of fighter and lots of frigates at it (as I tested the fighter adjustments) and it continued to sit there. I made it part of a fleet, no good. I adjusted the tactical settings from hold, through local, wide and gravity well, nope. I tried abilities on and off with no change in behavior.

The Minbari Morshin is very aggressive and it has a long range beam weapon. I have no idea why the Avenger just sits there. Any other iideas?

Try setting this to False.

prefersToFocusFire TRUE

I don't see anything wrong in the weapons but I am checking up on the Developer videos I recorded for my project (the many hundreds of hours). This is the only change I documented in this while I ran into the bug before continuing work in another cut. So I don't know if it actually fixed it or not.

Reloaded to test and it worked like a champ with no additional alteration. So I have no idea which if any of the tweaks made the difference. Frustrating.

Sounds like half the things I do in Retribution.

I played around with it for the first time today and so far I really like this mod.

I did notice that some techs (Like the vorlons "Creative Minds") read "research cost decrease" but will actually increase the costs of research.

Thank you on behalf of the team. Two things, not all techs are positive, by design some will for a while decrease some attributes as part of the overarching story arc that is B5. Second, the research trees were cobbled together relatively early in the mod process and are undergoing review and upgrade.

The more I dig through the Vorlon and Shadow the more I find broken links between research, abilities, ships and planetary modules. Not even close to a re-envisioning but both factions should play a lot better with the next release.

TobiWahn,

As I dig through the Shadow research tree fixing things (but not a wholesale adjustment) I notice there is no trade center, nor resource factory yet there are lots of trade impacting techs. I plan unless otherwise directed, to strip out the trade adjustments and make other balancing adjustments. Specifically, I'll increase the value of the capital ships to the Shadow though not in a direct combat fashion beyond what is already in place. The one huge exception are all the shield techs that also have to be stripped out and rebalanced with replacement adjustments.  Oh what fun... Vorlon are mostly done, just need to add the Rebellion specific techs; Shadow are...a work in progress.

TobiWahn,

 Found another problem with the DB. The Frigate flag ship has statCountType "CapitalShipBattleship" and frigateRoleType "Invalid" which is not in the DB. I can do up the rest of the entity files but I suspect that is a key AI feature. If I encounter any other unique additions I'll let you know.

I've been messing around in vanilla Sins to try to get the AI to use their Flagships aggressively, but to no avail. This includes changing their frigateRoleType to "Heavy", even adding a second frigateRoleType of "Lrm". statCountType shouldn't make a difference: the AI ignores it and the game only uses it for the post-game score screens. As far as I know, the way the AI handles any units marked as flagships (set by entityBoolModifier "IsFlagship") is hardcoded into the game.

The reason AIs concentrate on capital ships is that they overvalue capital ship strength. When auto-attacking, they will (usually) attack the most vulnerable ship with the highest perceived strength value, hence why they focus fire on capital ships before Lrm's. The AI's odd way of retreating from a winning battle due to the appearance of a capital ship happens for a similar reason.

Thanks, will be in the next DB update. But you can enter the values by hand instead of selecting them from the list in the meantime.

Thanks to you all for your continued support and contributions. I've had a very nice vacation, but since I came back (last weekend) my day to day job kept me from working on the mod. Another 6+ hours today, hope I find the time to finish the raider carrier next weekend. Then on to the next model.

Interesting, thanks!