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Explaining what Elemental is to people

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Explaining what Elemental is to people

from JoeUser Forums
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During the past couple weeks of heavy *playing* Elemental (as opposed to just coding) I’ve come to the conclusion that Elemental is very different than any strategy game I’ve played before.  It’s different in a very very good way. But that is going to be a challenge for “marketing”.

The Technical Game play Difference

In my view, Elemental is simply the natural evolution of PC strategy gaming IF PC games were being made explicitly for the PC still as opposed to cross platform.  Nearly every new title that comes out these days either is made to be cross platform (i.e. for consoles) or it’s using a licensed engine (that is cross platform).

Being a PC-exclusive game with a PC-exclusive engine means that we can assume that we have at least 1 gigabyte of memory to play with  (the Xbox 360 tops out at 512MB and it has to share that with video textures). 

So for this discussion, toss out the debates on the latest video cards versus what’s on a console and all that. Let’s consider the ramifications of having a gigabyte of memory to play with.  What does that mean in terms of GAME PLAY?

  1. It means that I can have lots of unique looking units. This matters because the player, at a glance, can distinguish one unit from another.
  2. It means I can upgrade units in game and have them visually look different. This matters again because, players need to be able to see that this unit is different from that unit without having to click on something.
  3. It means you can have a much wider range of creatures in the game.  Think about that for a moment. Consider any recent games you’ve played. How many different types of creatures were there in it? Even in an RPG. How many?  Not many right? That’s because it requires a lot of memory to juggle lots of different creatures. 
  4. It means you can have a lot of different types of buildings that are visually different.  How many times in recent years have you played an RPG and entered a building or dungeon that was identical in nearly every way to every other dungeon or Inn or whatever? Why was that? Were they lazy? Was it budget? No. That’s not the question. The question was, was that game ALSO available for a console? Yes. It was memory.

BTW, none of this should be considered console bashing. I love my Xbox 360. It’s wonderful for many types of games. But you could not make Elemental for it. Even if you had a $20 million budget you couldn’t make Elemental for the console. It’s not technically possible on the current generation of consoles. 

If I made a game that required a touch screen, that wouldn’t make the iPad a better gaming platform than the console or PC. It just means that particularly game really needed a touch screen.  Elemental requires a PC because of its inherent design. That might change some day but not right now.

The effect on strategy games

In every 4X game I’ve played, the start is pretty much the same. You start building cities/colonies/whatever, harvest resources, build stuff, then exterminate stuff to get more resources and repeat as you explore and expand out. (4X).

Elemental is a fantasy strategy game. In it, you’re in that D&D world you and your friends used to play in. You’re in the land of the Elder Scrolls. You’re playing in Britania, Middle Earth, etc.  But with ONE big difference: You’re not an adventurer anymore.  You’re the King (or queen).  Your attitude towards adventurers (who are IN Elemental btw) may change forever once you see them accidentally unleash a greater demon to rampage across the land.

Now, as a hook (the marketing guys love “hooks”), this is cool but it’s meaningless without players feeling like they’re playing in an RPG world. An RPG world is not simply generic strategy game X with magical units. It should feel like a fantasy RPG world.

At the start of Elemental, like the start of any great RPG (imo) it’s about YOU. Not some abstract kingdom but you are in the game. Beta testers know this.  What beta testers haven’t got to see yet is the importance of recruiting, especially early on, people (i.e. individuals) who have their own backgrounds and histories and most importantly, skills.

Similarly, players have quests they can go on, can get married, have children, arrange marriages, etc.  Now, in an RPG, this is not unheard of.  In Fable, my character got married, had children.  The difference here is that these children will grow up and be able to lead armies or go on adventures on their own.

NOT innovation, just the logical evolution of strategy games

Being able to have a rich fantasy kingdom (or empire) with interesting unique characters, armies, dragons, economics, diplomacy, quests, etc. isn’t some “new” idea. This is where PC strategy games were already heading to or would have if “cross platform” design hadn’t started coming into play.

Starting in Beta 2, beta testers will begin to help us mold the game towards its public release and then, over the next year, two, or three, let is continue to evolve as new concepts and ideas are considered.

251,595 views 152 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

I want the living world to operate under consistent and logical rules.  Doesn't matter if it's fantasy rules, or 'realistic' rules, or whatever.

For example, many of the early D&D modules would have a room of goblins next to a room of umber hulks next to a room of skeletons, etc.  What did the goblins eat?  How did they survive the umber hulks?  etc.  Such inconsistencies/impossibilities/unrealities strain my credulity and takes me 'out' of that world -- the world looks phony, contrived, and like no thought was put into it.

Giving the goblins a food source, living quarters, etc. isn't hard.  Putting the umber hulks a ways away, with tunnels off to wherever they're from, with the goblins trying to fend them off, isn't hard.  Tying the skeletons to an old tomb that predates the goblins, that the goblins have blocked off and use to guard an approach to the goblin's lair isn't hard.

Columbia Game's Harn stuff is a good example of logical/'realistic' adventures/worlds.

The logic/consistency/rules don't have to be complex or overly explained.  Pretty much just don't make the world illogical, add a bit of logic, and our imaginations fill in the rest.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 18
The objective is to make a strategy game that feels like it's playing in an RPG world.  An RPG world does not mean SimFantasy.

Well, maybe I'll be able to mod in some SimFantasy elements on a landscape level. I would love to experience the passage of time in form decay and growth. Or maybe i should attempt rolling in some ecology models - all those trolls want is food, drink, shelter, and maybe some sport with the peasantry ;)

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Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

That sounds Amazing, Frogboy. Hey, wait a minute, you're some marketing guy pretending to be Frogboy aren't you? hehe J/K.

Elemental is truly a groundbreaking game both in terms of design and in technology. I believe after the Smash Hit that Elemental will be you'll be seeing a lot of "clones" popping up all taking advantage of a 64bit environment trying to be as grand as Elemental, but they'll fail, miserably.

What you and the Stardock team have done by having such open lines of communication with your actual players has been a truly unique experience that I'm sure will show as a example to the rest of the industry and what can be accomplished when designers and the player community truly work together. Elemental's success is guaranteed.

Excellent work one and all.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm with Raven X. Every now and then a game comes along that is special, that really takes things to a whole new level.

Pyramid and Zork on the old TRS-80

Ultima II on the Apple

on the PC there are so many - Archon, Master of Magic, Wing Commander (the game I upgraded to a 286 to play!), Civilization, Everquest (these are some of mine, I am sure everyone has their own list)

This game is looking to be the first game in years to join my list of games that just made me go "WOW!" and that I could literally find myself playing at 2:00 in the morning and wondering where the time went. And at 46 years old, it takes something to keep me up til 2:00 a.m., let alone not realizing how late it is...:P

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Let me preface this by stating that I love Stardock and I'm committed to buying Elemental.

I don't think it's fair to say that Elemental is the evolution of strategy games.

I think it's one direction in which strategy games could go, but I don't think it's the one that they should. I've always favored strategy games with relatively few rules (i.e. games that are relatively predictable) and relatively few roleplaying elements. In other words, games that feel like games rather than games that feel like fantasies. I realize that's not the direction that Stardock wants to go with Elemental, and I respect that other people (the majority of the posters on this tread) have different tastes, but I want to offer an alternative perspective on strategy gaming.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting zigzag, reply 30
Let me preface this by stating that I love Stardock and I'm committed to buying Elemental.

I don't think it's fair to say that Elemental is the evolution of strategy games.

I think it's one direction in which strategy games could go, but I don't think it's the one that they should. I've always favored strategy games with relatively few rules (i.e. games that are relatively predictable) and relatively few roleplaying elements. In other words, games that feel like games rather than games that feel like fantasies. I realize that's not the direction that Stardock wants to go with Elemental, and I respect that other people (the majority of the posters on this tread) have different tastes, but I want to offer an alternative perspective on strategy gaming.

 

I think you are missing part of the beauty of Elemental. The modding can let this game be taken in any direction. I seem to recall Frogboy stating that this game will eventually be so mod-able that you'll be able to make even non TBS games. Almost nothing to this game will be locked down in the engine code.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree that elemental looks to be turning into something unique... but I also agree with the living world crowd, that an actual, common sense living world would change this game from something special to something epic.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Leo, reply 31
I think you are missing part of the beauty of Elemental. The modding can let this game be taken in any direction. I seem to recall Frogboy stating that this game will eventually be so mod-able that you'll be able to make even non TBS games. Almost nothing to this game will be locked down in the engine code.

No, I understand that. And I think that's great!  :)  I really do appreciate when developers are as interested as Stardock in supporting modding communities.

The point I was trying to make was that Elemental's core gameplay is only an evolution from a particular perspective. One, which I happen to disagree with.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Denryu, reply 29
And at 46 years old, it takes something to keep me up til 2:00 a.m., let alone not realizing how late it is...

Wow..you know Den, from your posts I always thought you were younger then that. I knew you were an adult and had some experience and everything, I just didn't think you were that old. Freakin old farts...geez. hehe J/K brother ;) Awesome games list as well. You named off some of my All Time Favs too.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Demiansky, reply 24

My point to Brad isn't to antiquate the player.  My point is to make the player feel like he/she is actually part of something that is active and alive, rather than something that just looks active and alive on the surface.

The thing is, does the player has any way to differentiate both cases? If she sees a pair of wandering trolls, is she able to know that they are raiding because there's a shortage of food or whatever "reason"?

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting strager, reply 20

Why did the trolls leave their lands? I don't think having an apparent motivation (even in an RPG) is any sort of basic requirement for a "living" world.


 

Why DID the trolls leave their lands?

 

Everyone knows Trolls migrate whenever there is a forum that hasn't been settled yet. Of course the bigger the forums the more trolls that migrate.

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

There is an idea for the game, Call them Forum Caves and thats where trolls come from!!!

Hell have you author put in the book where the hero has to go into the Forum cave's where he is assulted by the Forum Trolls. Well not Assulted as much as insulted repeatedly about his skill and gear and why he is doing this or that. You can even add the comic releif troll called Fanboy.

Fanboy is the runt troll that gets pciked on and beat up by the Forum Trolls. And the entire time he follows our hero around licking his boots, fawning over his ideas, and complimenting his Thrust and parry.

 

 

Wow that kinda took on a life of it's own. :beer:

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top
  • PC-exclusive game  :O
  • PC-exclusive engine :O  

OMG!  8O

 

This sounds absolutely great!   Turnbased fantasy strategy will once again have a great chance at becoming "GAME OF THE YEAR!" and "RUNNER UP TO GAME OF THE YEAR!"

 

Last time that happened was in 1995 and 1996 when Heroes of Might & Magic I & II were released. After that, TBS became less and less popular (natural development?  As some genres becomes MORE popular, some genres lose popularity) and eventhough Age of Wonders was good, it was very far from being a critically acclaimed game that EVERY PC gamer knew like Heroes of Might & Magic II. <-- That game is legendary to me. Thinking of buying it from GoG. But 10$ is too much for that old game....ridicoulous amount for a 1996(!) game.

 

I'm convinced that Elemental will be the BEST Turn Based Fantasy Strategy game so far and WILL end up on 1st, 2nd or 3rd place of strategygames released this year.

 

 

I have to add that Demianskys idea of a living world sounds great and would add a great deal of character to the world.

Trolls trollin growing and expanding (or whatever Elemental trolls do), Bandithuts that often send out bandits to raid your caravans and other targets where they can steal gold and resources but staying well clear of armies and cities.

Then we got Goblinlairs that takes some time to muster up a Goblinhorde but once they got 100 Goblins they go out and wreck havoc!           Can't ofcourse forget The Kings Tomb or Dark Castle that spawn Undead that deal with dark magic and killing every living creature ^^

 

Just having monsters in dungeons that wait for a player to come kill them have worked well so far, but it's time to take the genre forward just like you're saying Brad ;)

Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting VicenteC, reply 35

Quoting Demiansky, reply 24
My point to Brad isn't to antiquate the player.  My point is to make the player feel like he/she is actually part of something that is active and alive, rather than something that just looks active and alive on the surface.
The thing is, does the player has any way to differentiate both cases? If she sees a pair of wandering trolls, is she able to know that they are raiding because there's a shortage of food or whatever "reason"?

Thats why you have those little cues they had in dem old games.

Little box pops up and says "Harsh winters have driven a tribe of furries into your lands looking for a warm fire and horny villagers". Its a great place to put concept art aswell. Then you name them "Curious Furry Girls" (or "Raiding Trolls" in your not so fun example).

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

# It means you can have a much wider range of creatures in the game. Think about that for a moment. Consider any recent games you’ve played. How many different types of creatures were there in it? Even in an RPG. How many? Not many right? That’s because it requires a lot of memory to juggle lots of different creatures.
# It means you can have a lot of different types of buildings that are visually different. How many times in recent years have you played an RPG and entered a building or dungeon that was identical in nearly every way to every other dungeon or Inn or whatever? Why was that? Were they lazy? Was it budget? No. That’s not the question. The question was, was that game ALSO available for a console? Yes. It was memory.

 

Just don't get carried away. It is better to have 20 meaningful different creatures and or buildings, than just to put in there so many different units/monsters/buildings that user has no chance to know them all.

A good example were this was done the wrong way is the late Heroes of Might and Magic series. There you had lot of monsters, many which you could just recruit in external dens and in total they had no real big impact on the game and was just enforcing a huge amount of micromanagement.

 

I would like so see a game with a deep gameplay, but just multiplying the creatures/buildings is most often just hiding the missing story behind a number....

 

"Who they 10000 different monsters in there game", but the underlying mechanism will show you in the end that the 9990 of those monsters are just slight variations of the first 10 without adding any benefit to the game.

 

I think some time ago you mentioned Sid Meyer:

"Keep it simple"

So I hope you find the right balance.

Reply #41 from Stardock Forums Top

The P&P rpg Birthright could be a good inspiration fot Elemental, i think : http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Main_Page

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting CPCvwr, reply 41
The P&P rpg Birthright could be a good inspiration fot Elemental, i think : http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Main_Page

Birthright is the most awesome setting ever published for AD&D :) The mix of RPG and realm ruling was great, a pitty it doesn't have many chances of been revived again :(

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Aractain, reply 39

Little box pops up and says "Harsh winters have driven a tribe of furries into your lands looking for a warm fire and horny villagers". Its a great place to put concept art aswell. Then you name them "Curious Furry Girls" (or "Raiding Trolls" in your not so fun example).

This looks more like the text of a random event than an "the world is alive" explanation... Maybe it would be enough for that.

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

 

Quoting Raven, reply 34



Quoting Denryu,
reply 29
And at 46 years old, it takes something to keep me up til 2:00 a.m., let alone not realizing how late it is...



Wow..you know Den, from your posts I always thought you were younger then that. I knew you were an adult and had some experience and everything, I just didn't think you were that old. Freakin old farts...geez. hehe J/K brother Awesome games list as well. You named off some of my All Time Favs too.

Heh. :D My father is 55y old, and he is a big Civ4 fan. [His favourite is the Orbis mod for FFH2.] I think that he will buy EWoM as well. :)

 

Quoting CPCvwr, reply 41
The P&P rpg Birthright could be a good inspiration fot Elemental, i think : http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Main_Page

Btw, there is an old strategy game which was based on the Birthright campaign setting. Here is the wiki link if you want more infos about it. It's a shame that it was a bugfest basically. :rolleyes:

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

I have a question, Well we still be able to control our heros/adventurers in the game or will they just be run by the AI? For example in AOW:SM the player is actully the leader of his empire and usally you don't leave your capital city to adventure unless you really wanted too but the down side to this is that if your not in a city with a mage tower then you cannot cast spell throughout your whole kingdom. So you use your heros and armies of coarse to run around for you.

I would hope that we at least get the option of controlling our adventureres. This was pretty fun to do in AOW:SM really got into the Hero delelopment.

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

The thing is, does the player has any way to differentiate both cases? If she sees a pair of wandering trolls, is she able to know that they are raiding because there's a shortage of food or whatever "reason"?

Yeah, I understand what you are saying and it's a good point.  But the purpose for giving monsters these kinds of motives isn't to simply make them more convincing as characters.  The point it is to make them dynamic.  Rather than giving them a script to just wander around aimlessly with no purpose, give them a script that gives them objectives.  What's more, you might be able to send rangers or spies to identify what that "mob's" purpose is and even open up quest possibilities.

For instance...

If your adventuring techs are high enough you send in rangers to investigate the trolls which wander perilously close to your cities.  They report back that the trolls are great in number, agitated, and severely malnourished.  You then have the option of delivering food to them or doing nothing.  If you deliver food to them, it's likely that you can convince them to head on over to your neighbor's kingdom to find better foraging grounds.  There's also a "smaller" chance that they, instead, become larger and more treacherous or, also, they might join you.

Even if you don't build quests around it, there are other interesting possiblities.  Trolls might just be migrating and happen to be passing close to your city.  Identify properly that they are just migrating and you can choose to leave them alone.

So you can see what my "living world" proposition adds to the game.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 45
I have a question, Well we still be able to control our heros/adventurers in the game or will they just be run by the AI? For example in AOW:SM the player is actully the leader of his empire and usally you don't leave your capital city to adventure unless you really wanted too but the down side to this is that if your not in a city with a mage tower then you cannot cast spell throughout your whole kingdom. So you use your heros and armies of coarse to run around for you.

I would hope that we at least get the option of controlling our adventureres. This was pretty fun to do in AOW:SM really got into the Hero delelopment.

You will be able to control all of your units, including the champions.

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 44
 
Btw, there is an old strategy game which was based on the Birthright campaign setting. Here is the wiki link if you want more infos about it. It's a shame that it was a bugfest basically.

Yeah, the game was pretty crappy :( Birthright.net is a great resource to start learning about Birthright, and the community is full of people who know a LOT about medieval economy, society, history,...

Once you get the feeling of the setting, if you want to enjoy it more you can join one of the forum games that are running right now, for example, there are some open spots for regents, guilders and priests in "Empire's Twilight" (http://legacyofblood.org/empiretwilight/).

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top

heh yeah when multi-platforming came into the gameing industry the PC was almost forgoten thats why this will be the most epic PC game in millions of years to come...i like the idea that  you can create your own world i would be able to create a world like for a week or 2 then play it for a year or two(how big is the max size of the map coz if you can choose a HUGE size i would make my own world that would be cool having your own world and stuff always wanted to do that hmm making the world "round" should be a option so if a unit gets to one part of the map and crosses the boarder of the map he will be on the other side coz well the world is "round" not square)

Reply #50 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Demiansky, reply 46

The thing is, does the player has any way to differentiate both cases? If she sees a pair of wandering trolls, is she able to know that they are raiding because there's a shortage of food or whatever "reason"?
Yeah, I understand what you are saying and it's a good point.  But the purpose for giving monsters these kinds of motives isn't to simply make them more convincing as characters.  The point it is to make them dynamic.  Rather than giving them a script to just wander around aimlessly with no purpose, give them a script that gives them objectives.  What's more, you might be able to send rangers or spies to identify what that "mob's" purpose is and even open up quest possibilities.

For instance...

If your adventuring techs are high enough you send in rangers to investigate the trolls which wander perilously close to your cities.  They report back that the trolls are great in number, agitated, and severely malnourished.  You then have the option of delivering food to them or doing nothing.  If you deliver food to them, it's likely that you can convince them to head on over to your neighbor's kingdom to find better foraging grounds.  There's also a "smaller" chance that they, instead, become larger and more treacherous or, also, they might join you.

Even if you don't build quests around it, there are other interesting possiblities.  Trolls might just be migrating and happen to be passing close to your city.  Identify properly that they are just migrating and you can choose to leave them alone.

So you can see what my "living world" proposition adds to the game.

I think the idea here is that all creatures in the world have motivations.  Whether it's humans and love/greed/hate/etc, animals and natural instinct (mating/food/whatever), or monsters and territorial expansion/random mayhem, all creatures wandering the world have a reason for what they're doing, even if those reasons only make sense in their own mind. 

Very few, if any, games truly model the behavioral decisions of the world.  If Trolls show up at one of my cities and start attacking travelers or caravans, I'd like to know why they're there, even if that reason is just "Trolls are aggressive beyond the point of self preservation." 

A good example would be dragons.  In some fantasy settings dragons are essentially very powerful animals.  If that's the case in Elemental, then they should behave like animals with an animal's instinct (fight or flight, mating, hunting for weaker creatures in the food chain).  However, if dragons are more like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance dragons, in that they have personalities, goals, and egos, that should show through in their actions in the game.  Can you bargain with them?  Will a show of force drive them from your lands?  If dragons are supposed to be intelligent beings and one just randomly shows up and start destroying on of my outposts, it has to fit with their game lore and motivations.  If my kingdom is exceptionally powerful, would an intelligent being risk my wrath just to destroy one of my outposts?  Why that outpost?  Why take the risk? 

This doesn't have to be overly complex, but it should be consistent and make logical sense.  If dragons are intelligent and I found an outpost near the mountain they call home, that may very well be enough reason for them to attack. 

Continuing the dragon example, if I never founded that outpost near the dragon's mountain, but a tribe of trolls decided to settle nearby, would the dragon react?  Is it for some reason okay with trolls moving into its territory, but not humans?  How does that powerful, intelligent creature react to the world around it when I'm not in the area? 

It'd be nice to see a setting where everything not PC or NPC version of the PC (computer sovereigns) wasn't just "random dumb monster.  Bandits, animals, and monsters should have some basic motivations in the world.  Not every throwaway creature is "aggressive beyond the point of self preservation."