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Explaining what Elemental is to people

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Explaining what Elemental is to people

from JoeUser Forums
Elemental_1274384621

During the past couple weeks of heavy *playing* Elemental (as opposed to just coding) I’ve come to the conclusion that Elemental is very different than any strategy game I’ve played before.  It’s different in a very very good way. But that is going to be a challenge for “marketing”.

The Technical Game play Difference

In my view, Elemental is simply the natural evolution of PC strategy gaming IF PC games were being made explicitly for the PC still as opposed to cross platform.  Nearly every new title that comes out these days either is made to be cross platform (i.e. for consoles) or it’s using a licensed engine (that is cross platform).

Being a PC-exclusive game with a PC-exclusive engine means that we can assume that we have at least 1 gigabyte of memory to play with  (the Xbox 360 tops out at 512MB and it has to share that with video textures). 

So for this discussion, toss out the debates on the latest video cards versus what’s on a console and all that. Let’s consider the ramifications of having a gigabyte of memory to play with.  What does that mean in terms of GAME PLAY?

  1. It means that I can have lots of unique looking units. This matters because the player, at a glance, can distinguish one unit from another.
  2. It means I can upgrade units in game and have them visually look different. This matters again because, players need to be able to see that this unit is different from that unit without having to click on something.
  3. It means you can have a much wider range of creatures in the game.  Think about that for a moment. Consider any recent games you’ve played. How many different types of creatures were there in it? Even in an RPG. How many?  Not many right? That’s because it requires a lot of memory to juggle lots of different creatures. 
  4. It means you can have a lot of different types of buildings that are visually different.  How many times in recent years have you played an RPG and entered a building or dungeon that was identical in nearly every way to every other dungeon or Inn or whatever? Why was that? Were they lazy? Was it budget? No. That’s not the question. The question was, was that game ALSO available for a console? Yes. It was memory.

BTW, none of this should be considered console bashing. I love my Xbox 360. It’s wonderful for many types of games. But you could not make Elemental for it. Even if you had a $20 million budget you couldn’t make Elemental for the console. It’s not technically possible on the current generation of consoles. 

If I made a game that required a touch screen, that wouldn’t make the iPad a better gaming platform than the console or PC. It just means that particularly game really needed a touch screen.  Elemental requires a PC because of its inherent design. That might change some day but not right now.

The effect on strategy games

In every 4X game I’ve played, the start is pretty much the same. You start building cities/colonies/whatever, harvest resources, build stuff, then exterminate stuff to get more resources and repeat as you explore and expand out. (4X).

Elemental is a fantasy strategy game. In it, you’re in that D&D world you and your friends used to play in. You’re in the land of the Elder Scrolls. You’re playing in Britania, Middle Earth, etc.  But with ONE big difference: You’re not an adventurer anymore.  You’re the King (or queen).  Your attitude towards adventurers (who are IN Elemental btw) may change forever once you see them accidentally unleash a greater demon to rampage across the land.

Now, as a hook (the marketing guys love “hooks”), this is cool but it’s meaningless without players feeling like they’re playing in an RPG world. An RPG world is not simply generic strategy game X with magical units. It should feel like a fantasy RPG world.

At the start of Elemental, like the start of any great RPG (imo) it’s about YOU. Not some abstract kingdom but you are in the game. Beta testers know this.  What beta testers haven’t got to see yet is the importance of recruiting, especially early on, people (i.e. individuals) who have their own backgrounds and histories and most importantly, skills.

Similarly, players have quests they can go on, can get married, have children, arrange marriages, etc.  Now, in an RPG, this is not unheard of.  In Fable, my character got married, had children.  The difference here is that these children will grow up and be able to lead armies or go on adventures on their own.

NOT innovation, just the logical evolution of strategy games

Being able to have a rich fantasy kingdom (or empire) with interesting unique characters, armies, dragons, economics, diplomacy, quests, etc. isn’t some “new” idea. This is where PC strategy games were already heading to or would have if “cross platform” design hadn’t started coming into play.

Starting in Beta 2, beta testers will begin to help us mold the game towards its public release and then, over the next year, two, or three, let is continue to evolve as new concepts and ideas are considered.

251,831 views 152 replies
Reply #76 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 72
Quoting VicenteC, reply 70
Despite that being the IDEAL solution. Writing what amounts to individual AI's for each creature, or even just the "big impact" units would be most likely impractical.

The reason being, would all Dragons behave the same? What would make a Mountain dwelling Dragon different from Forest dwelling Dragon? It would have to be something or a Red Dragon is Fire and a Blue Dragon is Ice... And that distinction is merely, and rather obviously, cosmetic....

I agree it's not practical to have all game entities doing that, I was just addressing the script point.

Reply #77 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting VicenteC, reply 76

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 72Quoting VicenteC, reply 70
Despite that being the IDEAL solution. Writing what amounts to individual AI's for each creature, or even just the "big impact" units would be most likely impractical.

The reason being, would all Dragons behave the same? What would make a Mountain dwelling Dragon different from Forest dwelling Dragon? It would have to be something or a Red Dragon is Fire and a Blue Dragon is Ice... And that distinction is merely, and rather obviously, cosmetic....
I agree it's not practical to have all game entities doing that, I was just addressing the script point.

Understood. I guess I found myself thinking back to the Quest idea thread that had the Player actually working in concert with a Dragon, who has lost her Egg.

Assuming we would interact via "text based" or scripted means, does not necessarily take away from the 'living" aspect or make it any less reasonable that doing so is actually even possible. That is the beauty of Fantasy I suppose. We can actually talk to Dragons.

It is the step up to the next level of interaction that interests me.

If we hold up, or renig on our "deal" concerning the Egg, what happens next? How does it transpire, when does it happen and who is affected, other than the obvious "doers" of the deal.

Assuming the deal went badly for the Dragon this time. Will the Dragon assess the current situation, out numbered, even for a Dragon, and go home pissed off but waiting, wreathing and biding her time?

Then one day she shows up on some remote battlefield, lands in the middle of both armies, has a look around, then SCORCHES the shite out of your side with fire and then simply flies away, leaving the remnants of your army to be mopped up by the non-scorched side, with a satisfied smile with the knowledge of recently having produced another Egg back at her NEW secret Lair...

Such are the dreams of some gamers I guess.

 

Start11 - Customize the Start Menu and Taskbar in Windows 10/11.
Reply #78 from Elemental Forums Top

Wasn't the first priority "Fun" and not to try to create "The Thirteenth Floor"? The player may have fun seeing a totally immersive world. The DM surely won't find it so amusing to spend tons of hours (for free of his free time) to just detail that random goblin you could encounter in a dungeon. Especially considering the tendency of players to wander off limits and the DM needing to improvise to adapt to the situation (unless he railroads the players).

Anyone wants to play Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth?;P

Reply #79 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting markieness, reply 4
If any game had written on the back of the box: NOT A CONSOLE PORT it would vastly increase my buying chances

It's not just for PCs. PS3 games that arent Xbox ports tend to be better too.

I think people understand that games built specifically with its platform in mind tend to be better because of it, and its definitely worth making sure they know this is the case.

 

 

 

 

Actually ANY GAME that is not a port turn out to be better.  Gears of war rocks on the 360 because it was built for it, can utilize the graphic tricks without worrying about what the PS3 can't handle (like dynamic lighting properly).  Where as GOW 3 is awesome on th PS3 because it can focus on that system, tap into the Cell processor to get all those baddies on screen at one time.  Platform specific games are also easier to develop since you don't have to know the architecture of more than 1 platform.

Reply #80 from Demigod Forums Top

I've always wondered, can you eventually make your heroes more powerful then yourself?

Reply #81 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting VicenteC, reply 76

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 72Quoting VicenteC, reply 70
Despite that being the IDEAL solution. Writing what amounts to individual AI's for each creature, or even just the "big impact" units would be most likely impractical.

The reason being, would all Dragons behave the same? What would make a Mountain dwelling Dragon different from Forest dwelling Dragon? It would have to be something or a Red Dragon is Fire and a Blue Dragon is Ice... And that distinction is merely, and rather obviously, cosmetic....
I agree it's not practical to have all game entities doing that, I was just addressing the script point.

That's what OOP is for.

You inherit the tendencies of most dragons [horde treasure, eat maidens, and burn villages] and then add special cases
Mountain [eats chidren 1st, maidens 2nd, likes to poop in stony areas instead of open fields]
Forest [hordes bones 1st, treasure 2nd, burns merchant convoys 1st, villages 2nd]

etc...

Reply #82 from Elemental Forums Top

"etc..."

There you go. That is the stuff were really after.

Reply #83 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting cephalo, reply 73

Quoting Tormy-, reply 69

Beta1 [alpha], was an engine test, nothing more. The devs are "monitoring" the ideas subforum, so you shouldn't worry at all.

I would say that it became that after it was over... now beta 2 must accomplish what beta 1 had originally set out to do, which was to 'find the fun'. Now that has to be done with 3D assets? Maybe I'm just confused about what the plan was. As it is we don't have a fun game to impliment. I say, now that many of the showstopper bugs have been ironed out, we can finally begin the discussion of the game's design. Can we bring in the 3D engine before that happens without spending the whole budget and being forced to release? Haha that is sooo not my business. I'll have to leave it to the experts.

 

The 3-D assets are already in the internal build, and as stated earlier it would actually be MORE expensive to keep the 3-D graphics OUT of the next build. (meaning that, its too time consuming to code the graphics out of the game by this point) ... So really, we will get the "raw" and unaltered version ... which happens to have all of the graphics (minus editors, we still won't get editors at this point)

 

As for "spending the budget" even though the move to bring in the internal (3-D) build for the testers was done as a Time/Money decision, Elemental has no investors ... ergo no fixed budget ... ergo they are going to wait until their product is decently ready for launch.

Reply #84 from Elemental Forums Top

The point of a living world is to have a game that does not totally revolve around the player - the player can influence it, or leave it alone. Most games aren't like that - you'll have the leaders of the various factions, and that's it. Stuff happens because one or more leaders/factions make them happen. This is the same as having a machine that, in and of itself, does nothing but can be tweaked and moved and adjusted by the various players. The machine itself just sits there and looks pretty.

In a living world, the machine moves and functions on its own. Things happen that aren't within the player's control, or any player's control. For example, after a particularly harsh winter, a troll cave finds itself lacking enough food. This cave happens to be right outside your lush, green, easily farmable territory. So the trolls are then told something along the lines of this..."You have X food, you need 2X food. Thus, go find the missing X." The trolls leave, some wander into your territory, find the remaining X food, and takes it back to their cave. It happens, not because the player decided to make it happen, but because it was necessary for the trolls to survive.

THAT is what would make Elemental even better. The trolls had a need, and they acted upon it. Now that can easily start a chain reaction...say they took food from an area that normally goblins use for food. Now you have X less food, after a harsh winter - the goblins will seek to find the food they need. They come across the trolls with lots of food. As they've been told to get food, they try to take it. The trolls resist. War between the trolls and goblins begins - all of this happening while the player was doing something else.

I don't think it has to be hard to implement, either. Someone - I can't remember who right now - made a comment earlier about giving each lair a radius. If each lair also had a 'food requirement' then as long as there is enough food in the radius, the lair dwellers will be content. Events like a harsh winter (reducing the kingdom's food) will lessen the amount in the radius. Since the radius can't have enough food, the lair dwellers are told "get out of here and get some food!" and they do just that, by whatever means.

But now, back to the goblin-troll war. Imagine yourself 5 turns later, with a small group of scouts patrolling near the lairs. They come upon a battle, with the goblins on one side and the trolls on the other. You have no idea what's causing the conflict, but there they are, duking it out. And now you have several options...

Help one side - killing the goblins or the trolls, the hated enemy of one group, could have a benefit. Say I kill all of the goblins. As the trolls hate the goblins too, each dead goblin raises their disposition to my faction by a small amount, and eradicating them all puts me at a nice level. So I wander near the trolls, a troll elder walks up to me and says, "Hey, we like you now, but we still need X food. If you help us get X food, you'll be our friend." You give them food, and now you are friends with a cave of trolls.

Stand by - One side will wipe out the other, or it'll be an eternal stalemate. Whichever it is, there are options from here...if the trolls win, then you - the Sovereign - suddenly have a cave of hungry, battle-hardened trolls. Or perhaps the battles with the goblins were so difficult that only a handful of trolls remain, their lair radius is reduced and their food requirements for survival are also reduced (to compensate for less trolls)

Erase both - Kill them both off, and take the lands for yourself.

Now think about that happening your first game. Come the next game, both factions (conveniently at the same location) need food again, so they team up to take food from you. The game after that, the goblins randomly wandered into another direction looking for food, and team up with that goblin tribe on the other side of the mountains, wipe out the trolls, find another tribe, and now you have a bunch of goblins in control of a pretty large area, all of them wanting food, and all them them wanting to take it from you.

Then comes that band of adventurers, who take down one lair and conveniently buy your troops enough time to fend off the other two (because two goblins tribes are not as powerful as three). You look at the adventurers, offer them permanent jobs (or whatever you can do to reward them) and now you have new champions leading your armies against the goblin menace.

You can kill them all off, but perhaps your armies are too weakened to finish the goblins. You go back, lick your wounds, and get to prepare to finish the goblins off some day down the road, while they rebuild their own armies. Maybe you get distracted and, twenty turns later, the goblins wipe a city off the face of the map. Or perhaps instead your troops meet them and end the battle twenty turns later, then, because you're stronger, go to finish off the goblins.

Tell me THAT would not be an epic game.

Reply #85 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, we know that at least Leaders and NPC adventurers will live of their own accord, but yes, I would hope their are smaller factions as well. Nothing like exponential growth Independents ... but Certainly a Slower Logarithmic Scale of Growth ... influenced by actions of them and other actors of course (with actors including players, adventurers, wild beasts, other independent factions, and other lairs)

Reply #86 from Sins Forums Top

Tell me THAT would not be an epic game.

Called SimFantasy. :P

Reply #87 from Elemental Forums Top

I wouldn't go so far as to consider it a Sim game. Sim games seem to involve randomness as the main feature - if X happens, you must do Y or Z. In this case, with Elemental, the player doesn't have to do anything and can just let the game world continue to develop of its own accord. Sit back and just build your nation in peace, or actively try to control various lair dwellers to help your cause. Heck, it'd be interesting if the player could somehow lessen the food in a region, guide the (following my example) goblins towards the trolls, let them hate each other, erase the goblins and subvert the trolls. And then proceed to do this frequently, building up an army of indigenous creatures to augment your own soldiers.

What I am proposing is all about options - the more options that come about, the better. I don't want to play a game of Elemental and just have it be the exact same as every other game that exists out there. I want each game to be unique, totally different, and I want the 'what if' choices to exist. "What if I had taken out the trolls instead of the goblins?" "What if that adventuring group hadn't staved off the invasion of the third lair? Would my troops have been strong enough on their own?" "What if I had destroyed that lair earlier? Would the whole thing never have happened?" "What if I had formed an alliance with that channeller up north? Would s/he have been able to help me? Would it have mattered?"

Reply #88 from Elemental Forums Top

Is there an actual game called SimFantasy?

Reply #89 from Elemental Forums Top

Found nothing on google. So I'm gonna say probably not.

Reply #90 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 88
Is there an actual game called SimFantasy?

Nop there is not...of course. :w00t:

Reply #91 from Elemental Forums Top

- On Frogboy's post: really cool. Wonderful that SD is making a game only for PC, using that fact to the max. Can't wait to see what might come out of it.

- I have to agree with Cephalo that now the next beta still has to accomplish to find the fun - and I don't mean for the total gaming experience (with graphics etc) but really for the basic mechanisms. What is worrying at this point in time is that we still don't know much about e.g: the factions, magic, basic mechanisms like diplomacy, dynasty, espionage (does it even exist?), races etc. But it now starts to feel like the game will be rolled out as is and there will only be some tweaking to be done (too late now for any major changes?). So, let's hope we'll be happy with what we'll get in the coming betas on all of this, because it doesn't feel "achieved" and "agreed" on the Forum at all yet ...

Reply #92 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting the, reply 91
espionage (does it even exist?)
(99.99999...% probability of) No. At best something rudimentary in comparison with the other systems. (imo)

Reply #93 from Demigod Forums Top

the Xbox 360 tops out at 512MB and it has to share that with video textures

Wow... seriously? I had no idea...

Now I'm quite a bit miffed that PC games have been ham-strung to accommodate consoles :p

But I'm glad that you recognize this and are going back to actually making PC games solely for the PC, bravo!

(Too bad that pirates have made PC games too unprofitable for most mainstream companies to do this :'()

Reply #94 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't worry about pirates. So far as I'm concerned - pirates or no, if I feel the game is worth the money, I pay for it. No, I don't 'buy' from pirates...if the game isn't worth the money, it's not worth my playing.

Elemental I look forward to. Hopefully, without having my hopes crushed under realism.

Reply #95 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting the, reply 91
- On Frogboy's post: really cool. Wonderful that SD is making a game only for PC, using that fact to the max. Can't wait to see what might come out of it.

- I have to agree with Cephalo that now the next beta still has to accomplish to find the fun - and I don't mean for the total gaming experience (with graphics etc) but really for the basic mechanisms. What is worrying at this point in time is that we still don't know much about e.g: the factions, magic, basic mechanisms like diplomacy, dynasty, espionage (does it even exist?), races etc. But it now starts to feel like the game will be rolled out as is and there will only be some tweaking to be done (too late now for any major changes?). So, let's hope we'll be happy with what we'll get in the coming betas on all of this, because it doesn't feel "achieved" and "agreed" on the Forum at all yet ...

 

The Forum is a Rumbling Hurricane with several eyes over a vast Naval Armada, and lots of lightning bolts striking everywhere. Luckily there have been very minimal ships to catch flame, yet the Seas are anything but stilled and quiet.

:')

Reply #96 from Elemental Forums Top

Wow... seriously? I had no idea...

Now I'm quite a bit miffed that PC games have been ham-strung to accommodate consoles

 

What consoles lack in RAM and VRAM they really make up for in processing power. The PS3 has 7 cores I believe

Reply #97 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 60
This is not a jab cephalo, but what do you suggest?

Hunting for the Herbs and  seek out the lost recipes has also been done.

Experimenting on peasants, perhaps. But that has dark connotations, and a Light side would have to available to the non-dark side crowd.

Something new, interesting and unique is always the goal for sure  but what? and how? always remains.

If not Crystals, then what? Aliens show up to teach the ignorant masses or your SoV?

Magic Unicorns, Pixies (been done).

Sadly, this discussion was likely needed to be had probably 18 months ago. And in Frogboy's office.

I think we pretty much got Crystals...

 

 

 

 

I had an idea awhile back where the sovereign would wander the Primal Plane of Magic in spirit form to gain mastery over the magics.  That one hasn't been used, as far as I can tell.

Reply #98 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Demiansky, reply 97

 
I had an idea awhile back where the sovereign would wander the Primal Plane of Magic in spirit form to gain mastery over the magics.  That one hasn't been used, as far as I can tell.

Actually they did do something similar in Dragon Age recently. The mages get their power from the 'fade'.

Reply #99 from Elemental Forums Top

Yup ... also, the most epic thing to do in Dragon Age EVAR!! would be to reconquer the Black Citadel xD

Reply #100 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting scyldSCHEFING, reply 93

the Xbox 360 tops out at 512MB and it has to share that with video textures


Wow... seriously? I had no idea...

Now I'm quite a bit miffed that PC games have been ham-strung to accommodate consoles

But I'm glad that you recognize this and are going back to actually making PC games solely for the PC, bravo!

(Too bad that pirates have made PC games too unprofitable for most mainstream companies to do this )

Well, things aren't so simple, as a console doesn't have nearly to share its memory and processing power with anything (OS, other apps, drivers,...). Nor when coding for a console you have to take into account hundreds of different hardware configurations, you can have everything pretty optimized.