Volt_Cruelerz Volt_Cruelerz

Priority of the Fixing of Underpowered Capital Abilities

▼

Priority of the Fixing of Underpowered Capital Abilities

from Sins Forums

These are just opinions, and you can probably argue a few of them, but ehh...  Here you go...  Also, if you have a suggestion, I would be glad to add it to the list.

Also, I will use the star system to notate what I believe the power of the ability is as well as the suggested fix(es).

 

1.  Animosity**': This gets number one for 1 purpose.  It has none.  Honestly, this ability has no true value unless facing the AI.

Pros: Stops damage from hitting friendly units

Cons: Can be overwritten by a human player

Proposed Fix A***': There is no real way that is good...  Some say to have it re-issue the order, some want it to buff the Radiance temporarily so it makes sense to target it, and then some ideas are off in left field.  In other words, I don't know what to do with this, but I'll say that it continually rebuffs the targets so that they have no option.

Proposed Fix B****: This was by another person, but anyways, the idea is that the ability would force enemy SC to run into the Radiance itself, destroying them and dealing minor damage to the Radiance.  I'll throw out some statistics for what I believe would be fair.  25 damage per SC with a range of 5000/7500/10000 and a duration of 10/20/30.  The end result is that SC get slaughtered on a grand scale allowing the Advent to quickly gain air superiority

Proposed Fix C***: This one is the idea of Agent.  It basically says that the Radiance gets a souped up version of the Guardian's shield bubble for the duration so it automatically gets it.

Proposed Fix D***': This one is by Darvin.  The idea here is that you cause all ships around the Radiance to be invincible, forcing you to target it.

Proposed Fix E***: This may not be the most powerful one, but it solves the problem.  All you have to do is change a couple lines of code and you can make this so that it makes it impossible for ships to target anything else...  In other words, you can make the ability work.

 

2.  Gauss Rail Gun*': This ability gets number 2 because it is more or less worthless.  It deals low damage which is then mitigated.  Also, because you don't want a first strike monster, you can't directly buff the damage.

Pros: Good damage against structures and as a first strike ability

Cons: Worthless once mitigation comes into play.

Proposed Fix A****: I suggest a debuff be instilled on the target that replaces the current speed break debuff.  This would be a shield break similar to what Subs do.  Along with damage, there is also a stackable damage redux of 1.5%/3.0%/4.5% for 10/12/14 seconds.  This means that the Kol also gains a value as a fleet ship and not just a standalone.

Proposed Fix B****: Agent suggested having it be a true railgun that goes through whatever the target is.  Then it could actually act as a railgun.  I would think though that at that point you would have to make it damage hull, which I am against.

Proposed Fix C****: Going off the tradition of TEC gauss turrets and the suggestions of others, here is another.  It is a debuff that reduces armor by 5/7.5/10.  If that seems like a lot, you must remember that it would only apply if you are hitting hull.

Proposed Fix D*****: This is a myriad fix.  Basically, making GRG do everything, if only in small amounts.  What this does is it basically does everything imaginable that could arise from being hit from an RBG.  This would be: mitigation reduction of 2%/3%/4%, reduction in armor by 2/3/4, passive regeneration disabled, engines handicapped, and abilities disabled. 

Faulty Fix A*****': It has been suggested many many many times that GRG simply ignore shields and go straight for hull.  No!  That would take the second least valuable ability in the game and make it unstoppable.  Not even the Vasari have a straight damage weapon like that.  If you want to know why, you could spam GRG and take down an enemy capital early game with no trouble at all.  That is WAAAAAAY too powerful.

Faulty Fix B*****: It has also been suggested that the damage be vastly increased to say 1500/2000/2500.  There are a few problems with that.  For one, that makes this more powerful than Cleansing Brilliance which is a L6.  Next, you forget that this ability can target structures so this is a turret instagib.  Not only that, but the first shot you fire in a battle deals almost full damage against shields, making this knock down enemy shields almost instantly on most capitals.  No.

 

3.  Subversion**: This ability has its uses, but they are so few and far between that it is worthless in most situations.  This increases the time it takes to build ships in the gravity well.

Pros: Definitely allows a level VI Antorak to go on a rear world killing spree without having much of a fight on its hands.

Cons: You have to wait till you have a level VI Antorak before this ability has much use.

Proposed Fix****: I believe that this ability needs a second use.  Power can be exchanged for being multi-purpose.  I suggested in another thread that this deal 1/3/5 unmitigated DPS to frigates, 5/7/9 to capitals and structures, and 9/11/13 to starbases for 10/20/30 seconds.  While it is light damage, it is some nonetheless and would make this far more useful.  Now, you may want to know how this works...  Well, let's say you use it on a planet.  The target filter gives it a debuff that slows construction times.  Say you want it to deal damage to all nearby enemies?  Target yourself.

 

 

4.  Phase Missile Swarm*': These things are crap

Pros: these things are crap

Cons: these things are crap

Proposed Fix****: Spawns two types of missiles.  First type ignores shields and hits the hull.  The other hits shields.  Also, change the target cap to 10/20/30

 

 

5.  Guidance***: It takes AM to reduce cooldowns, but then again, you don't need that, so you just end up burning AM...

Pros: Reduces cooldowns on capital abilities

Cons: Sucks up too much AM for something that accelerates AM loss...

Proposed Fix: I don't have one.

 

6.  Shield Restore: This is great for keeping a single capital alive, while being FF'd, but still, its not that much later in the game...

Pros: Good amount of shield healed

Cons: Can't aim at self and not enough late game.

Proposed Fix****: Courtesy of Darvin, I believe that there should be a buff that increases mitigation to 90% for 10/12/14 seconds in addition to the current heal and being able to target itself.

 

7.  Phase Out Hull**: This was improved, but I don't think the devs did quite enough...

Pros: Versatile interrupt

Cons: Neither option does that much

Proposed Fix***': Change the amount of damage/healed to 200/300/400.

 

8.  Magnetize**': This is kinda meh...

Pros: Good at stopping early game SC

Cons: You don't get a Dunov early game

Proposed Fix A***': Causes SC to crash into the target and create a "toxic" debris field damaging all units within 5000/6000/7000 for 5/10/15 DPS for 60 seconds.

Proposed Fix B*****: Causes variable effects based on level.  Level 1 is same as normal; SC crash into the target.  2 causes frigates to crash into the target as well.  3 causes capital ships to crash into the target (though neither these nor the frigates are totally destroyed. 

Proposed Fix C****:  Causes SC to crash into the target, but it also allows you to target your own ships so you aren't destroyed by kiting

 

9.  Colonize [Jarrasul]*': This does very very little in comparison to the others

Pros: Increases build speed

Cons: Increases build speed by a measly 20%

Proposed Fix A***: Increase build speed buff to 20%/40%/60%

Proposed Fix B****: Cause it to start the planet off with say 100/200/300 population.

 

10.  Targeting Uplink**': This gives a range boost and accuracy, but that's about it.

Pros: Increases range slightly and increases anti-SC accuracy

Cons: Neither do that much to gameplay

Proposed Fix****: A stacking DPS increase buff.  Cause all ships in range to be instilled with a buff that causes them to pass on a debuff to whatever they shoot at.  This debuff stacks, but only lasts for 3 seconds.  Each one increases damage dealt to the target by .25%/.50%/.75%.  This means that if you have 100 ships affect by TU, you get a 75% increase in damage against a target.  This would make FFing targets more effective and would give the Akkan an ability that actually helps its allies more or less directly as opposed to its others which are incredibly indirect.

 

11.  Adaptive Forcefield***': An ability that vastly increases the Kol's life, but also drain AM.

Pros: Nullifies PM's and reduces damage

Cons: Drains AM quickly

Proposed Fix***': Make passive and reduce damage redux to 7.5%/15%/22.5%

 

12.  Incendiary Shells**': These things only increase DPS to a target by 6.

Pros: Increases DPS to the target by 6

Cons: Increase DPS to the target by 6

Proposed Fix***': Cause it to also reduce armor by 1/2/3 pointsStardock Entertainment

Faulty Fix*****: Current system, but causes damage directly to hull and stacks.  This is bad.  Stacking by itself is WAY too powerful.  The Marza is a capital with almost all its weapons facing forward which means that four banks will fire on one target.  This means that you will have about 8 buffs stacked on top of one another.  That means that it would deal 40 DPS directly to hull.  This is a passive!  You don't need that kind of power on a passive!

13.  Malice***: This is a modest ability on a great ship that always ends up with points elsewhere.

Pros: Spreads Damage

Cons: On a great ship and is not used because it does not compete with the other abilities

Proposed Fix****': Increase target cap to 30/40/50 and propagate 20%/40%/60% of damage

 

14.  Jam Weapons***: This ability nullifies SC, but does not do anything to harm them.

Pros: Stops SC damage

Cons: Drains a ton of AM and deals no damage.

Proposed Fix A****: Cause SC weapons to "malfunction" and rather than damaging the target, they damage the SC itself for 50% of the DPS.

Proposed Fix B***': Increase range from 4500/5500/6500 to 5000/6000/7000

 

Well, there you go..  Those are the abilities I think need buffs and the order in which I think they deserve to be fixed.

146,247 views 125 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top

This thread is designed to fix 2, not 1.

Understood.  But I'd like to relate my most recent experience (which happened today), if I might be allowed?  This seems like the most appropriate place, rather than starting an entirely new thread?

Got online and played against what ended up being a pure lrm spammer.  Even before I realized he was an lrm spammer, I purposefully got the colonization cap as my first and only cap, with the pure intent of keeping it out of battles, and not ever attempting to have my cap support my fleet.  This is my default strat nowadays.

At any rate, his fleet left the defense of one of his border worlds in order to do business elsewhere, so I attacked with a huge fleet of flak (since he had been building nothing but lrm).  While my flak was destroying structures, I brought in my cap to bomb the planet, keeping a constant eye out for his lrm so I could pull the cap instantly.  After his planet was about halfway down, I saw his lrm warping in.  I instantly selected my cap and hit the retreat hotkey.  However, his lrm managed to chase down my cap and destroy it before it was able to jump out.  This was after I already went into the game with a mindset of "caps are useless - don't build any, keep them out of all fights."  I wasn't planning on fighting with my cap at all, and it STILL died!

As most people do, the guy severely overestimated the utility of my cap (which hadn't been used for anything except colonization), and he went straight for it.  The threat wasn't my cap, it was my flak.  He ended up losing all of his lrm, because I put my flak right in the middle of them, and I won the game.  But that's not my point.  My point is to again illustrate the utter near-uselessness of capships once the very early game has passed.

I can also say that this style of gameplay (which is ALL styles of gameplay these days) IS EFF'ING BORING!  My only recourse is just spamming out the counter frig to whatever my opponent is building.  This means I mostly spam flak, and just stick my flak in the middle of his fleet.  That's the extent of my game.  Wow.  Joy.

I know that capitals need something late game, but still... Giving exp buffs could mean fleets solely constructed of Marzas and the like. Let's see you try to stop 6 Marzas all with MB. Good luck surviving.

He said he was just throwing the idea out there, but either way, I'm not sure I share your fears or concerns.  What would stop you from either going rock vs. rock and countering with your own Marzas, or countering with something like Akkans or Marauders which have interrupts?  You act as if he's the only one allowed to buy caps and level them up?

Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top

He said he was just throwing the idea out there, but either way, I'm not sure I share your fears or concerns.  What would stop you from either going rock vs. rock and countering with your own Marzas, or countering with something like Akkans or Marauders which have interrupts?  You act as if he's the only one allowed to buy caps and level them up?

This is what I don't get either.  You seem to be thinking as though only one player is getting cap ships here.  You mass Marzas, I mass Radiances.  Guess who wins?  There's supposed to be a certain degree of rock-paper-sissors to the caps, which is why you're allowed to build more than one.  At the end of day, caps are supposed to be the centerpiece of your fleets.  Yes, overbuffing caps is bad but simply improving a few weak abilities does not improve the mid-late game viabilitiy of caps, especially support caps.  Even carrier caps fade once someone can afford a decent amount of flak to back their LRF mass.

Caps need something more to insure they are more than fodder past the early game.

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top

Yes, I agree that they need something, but this is not really the place.  You seem to think that I am arguing against you.  I am simply worried we would go too far...

 

It can't be a per level buff as that causes issues late game and early game if you lose your starting cap.

It can't be base as that causes a severe issue early game.

 

It needs something that kicks in late game, but I can't think of anything other than a researchable...

Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top

We have a three-fold problem with capital ship survivability.

First of all, this game needs to scale from fleets of a little over a dozen units up to fleets of several hundred units.  That's no easy task to begin with.

The second issue are bombers and LRF.  The LRF have insane range, and the bomber have insane mobility, that enables them to focus fire with ridiculous ease.  They have very high damage output, some of the best in the game overall.  And to top it off, they have the best damage multiplier you can get against capital ships. 

Third and lastly, capital ships turn and move no faster than any regular frigate.  In many situations, this means by the time the enemy warps in it's already too late to retreat and save your capital ship.  This is particularly true with bombers, where they'll be on you before you turn around and they'll kill you before you even start to move out the way.

 

I honestly don't think there's a simple solution here.  Perhaps you might be able to just knock down the damage multiplier LRF get on capital ships, so that LRF go from being a good unit against capital ships to a bad unit against them, but that could leave a gaping tactical hole in the early-game unit lineup.  Any other solution will likely involve doing something like implementing a new form of damage reduction or drastically altering the way one of the existing forms work.  I doubt that will happen in a future patch.

 

Anyways, I totally support a buff overall to improve capital ship survivability, but we still need to deal with some of the weaker capital ships and abilities.  Support caps are in a real bad shape right now, and battleships and siege capital ships vary from mediocre to sub-par.  We need to get everyone up to the same level as the awesome carrier caps and colony caps.

Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top

We have a three-fold problem with capital ship survivability.

A good summary of the bottom-line issues.

Perhaps you might be able to just knock down the damage multiplier LRF get on capital ships, so that LRF go from being a good unit against capital ships to a bad unit against them

I thought of this too, but it would need to be extended to bombers and HC as well.

...but that could leave a gaping tactical hole in the early-game unit lineup.

What I think you are getting at is that caps might not be counterable early-game?  That's why I came up with the idea of caps countering caps.  You want to drive away a cap or counter it?  Build the appropriate cap, not lrm or bombers or whatever else.

Some people (Volt?) worry this would lead to people building nothing but caps, but it wouldn't.  Basically you'd have a situation where caps aren't so good against frigs or cruisers (just like now), but also where frigs or cruisers aren't so good against caps either.  This way you'd still have to build frigs and cruisers if you wanted to counter the other guy's frigs and cruisers (caps wouldn't do it!).  Caps could counter caps, and caps could also support your fleet because they wouldn't pop in seconds.

Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top

I thought of this too, but it would need to be extended to bombers and HC as well.

HC have short range and come late in the tech tree.  Sure, they're deadly to capital ships, but they're also much harder to focus fire with due to that range issue.  Really, I think the problem here is more with the TEC faction that doesn't have any equivalent to Advent repulse or Vasari lockdown, both of which will severely punish anyone who masses too many HC in the first place.  So I don't think HC need to be touched.

Bombers can be countered late game by abilities like jam weapons and telekinetic push.  Once again, I think the problem here is more with TEC (flak burst doesn't do the job well enough...) and in the early game before fighters can be brought out in larger swarms as a counter.  So again, I don't think we want to nerf bombers directly; let's focus on other things like buffing flak burst to compete with TK push and Jam Weapons, and bringing those carrier caps in line.

Some people (Volt?) worry this would lead to people building nothing but caps, but it wouldn't.

I'd be a little worried about Sova, maybe Vulkoras or Marza, but otherwise I don't think so.  If you throw enough light frigates at 'em, capital ships die.  Pretty straightforward stuff.

Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 56


Bombers can be countered late game by abilities like jam weapons and telekinetic push.  Once again, I think the problem here is more with TEC (flak burst doesn't do the job well enough...) and in the early game before fighters can be brought out in larger swarms as a counter.  So again, I don't think we want to nerf bombers directly; let's focus on other things like buffing flak burst to compete with TK push and Jam Weapons, and bringing those carrier caps in line.


Flak Burst is pretty fine as an ability. Some damage changes for level 1 Flak Burst might be helpful, but it's actually decent for an anti-SC ability. The problem is that it's on the worst capital in the game, and Flak Burst isn't so amazing to warrant building a Kol for it alone.

Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top

No matter how you decided to buff Caps, Volt. You are gonna need to play with the changes.


Again if anyone has not played Distant Stars, I suggest you at least download it to try how we have changed Caps. I really think we have improved Caps in general without making them to resistant to FF. At least you get an idea on how stronger Caps feel in game. And you can even see how having alot of Caps play out in fleet battles. Having alot of lvl 6 caps is really really fun even if you get your butt kicked. Ask Pbhead how well he kicked my ass.


Anyhow, point Im trying to make is you gotta play in game with any proposed Cap change so you honestly can get a feel for how it will pan out. OP or not.

Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top

Some people (Volt?) worry this would lead to people building nothing but caps, but it wouldn't.  Basically you'd have a situation where caps aren't so good against frigs or cruisers (just like now), but also where frigs or cruisers aren't so good against caps either.  This way you'd still have to build frigs and cruisers if you wanted to counter the other guy's frigs and cruisers (caps wouldn't do it!).  Caps could counter caps, and caps could also support your fleet because they wouldn't pop in seconds.

If they are separate, why have them?  If you put them off in their own little world, what good are they going to do?  The classes have to interact.  Otherwise, capitals are still pretty useless...

 

Anyhow, point Im trying to make is you gotta play in game with any proposed Cap change so you honestly can get a feel for how it will pan out. OP or not.[/quote]

When did anyone say anything that even remotely disagreed with that statement?  Besides, I've played DS, and decided that the way you did it isn't the right way...

Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top

Nope, no one did. But I get a feeling when I read alot of these styles of post that want to change something ingame, yet dont really test them out ingame enough. :) I was just making sure yall do so, b/c its hard sometimes to predict the outcome. Look at the Scramble bombers. Everyone proposed changes, i dont think anyone try the suggested changes before. And now there is backlash against the change b/c its too good some say. I would hate for that to happen again. My only point.

As for how you think we did it wrong in DS? Care to elaborate? I would love to know so maybe we can make it better.:)

Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top

If they are separate, why have them? If you put them off in their own little world, what good are they going to do?

The "good they are going to do" is support the fleet... isn't that obvious?

Perhaps you think "support the fleet" means add raw firepower?  No.  It means being able to Shield Recharge your fleet with an Advent Mothership while 2 fleets duke it out, it means being able to Repair Cloud with a Skirantra in the heat of battle, etc.  It means a lot of things that you can't do right now, because that cap will pop in a couple seconds flat to anything that's not an early game fleet.

The "off in their own little world" allows caps to coexist with their fleets in a battle so that they can FULFILL THEIR ROLE (which is support the fleet).  If they aren't "off in their own little world," it measn they are dead.

Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top

I'm more than willing to roll up my sleaves and make a balance mod, but I'm waiting on one more official patch first.  There's still several semi-major bugs in Diplomacy that I don't think a modder can fix (and shouldn't have to fix), so I'll wait for any major code changes before starting such a project.

Threads like these aren't useless at all, as getting input from other players who have really thought about it and want to improve the game helps out with things I might overlook.  That, and Ironclad DOES listen to us; I made a thread back in Entrenchment saying that Explore Planet was useless as the gains were never worth the cost.  They quietly buffed all the artifacts in Diplomacy, some massively, making it a worthwhile risk once again.

 

As for LRF/bomber damage vs. caps, and the consequences of nerfing it; what about simply improving LF damage vs. caps?  LFs are in desperate need of a use past the very early game now that LRFs generally rule the game again.

Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top

As for LRF/bomber damage vs. caps, and the consequences of nerfing it; what about simply improving LF damage vs. caps?  LFs are in desperate need of a use past the very early game now that LRFs generally rule the game again.

I think the problem is that "LRF rule the game again".  Back when we had a good counter to LRF in the form of scouts, LF were performing very well into the mid-game.  I don't think making anything stronger against capital ships is the right way to go, in any case.

LF are pretty good against caps as it is.  They're not great, but you can throw them in significant numbers and beat down a capital ship.  I actually liked LF vs Capital ship mechanics back in 1.18, and I'm sad that we've gone back to LRF spam.

Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top

lol do you even know what a railgun is? it definitly is not going to 'pass through' anything. however it definitly should get some sort or buff it is too weak currently...

caps are more powerfull now than they have ever been in this game. the most powerfull are the carriers, as they should be,  however some of the caps u will never see a skilled player build because the pros do not outway the cons.

i still love the egg to death and as vasari i make an egg 2-3 skirantras and maybe a desolattor for its anti block phase jump thingy and phase out hull is an awesome ability ie it doesnt need buffed

as advent i make nothing but halycons

as tec i usualy make 1-2 sovas and maybe a marza

problem is if ur not vasari going against vasari ur screwed if u make anything but carrrier caps (skirantra is a powerfull bastard)

skirnantra-for the love of God nerf scramble bombers plz...its currently as op as ilums used to be

all caps save marzza, sova, halycon, egg, and skrinantra need buffed

SLIGHT CHANGES nothing major

advent and tec have kickass heavycruisers but u cant use them against a good vasari player because a group of skirantras will tear them apart

 

 

Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top

@Carbon: I felt that they were too powerful early game.  In an online game, especially with the current power of skirantras, you could simply use them and you would be unstoppable.  Late game, it was helpful, but early...  Too much power...  If you need me to elaborate more I will, but that is a summary...

 

@Agent: Look at today's fleets.  What to "capitalships" of today do?  These supercarriers and superbattleships are capable of taking on a small fleet by themselves and winning.  But, just like in WWII, if you have a few hundred ships on either side, there are going to be issues with those ships dying.  What happened was that the majority of kills by the Japanese were by fighters, not by the ships themselves due to aiming issues.  In sins, everything hits everything (aside from SC) every time.  Do you see a problem here?  Firing 300 of anything at anything ought to annihilate that target, but you seem to think otherwise.  Ships die late game because fleets become huge.

So we need a solution, but I don't know what to do...  I really am at a loss here...

 

@Derek: Yes, I know what an RG is.  Technically, you can't have a gauss rail gun because GG's use magnetic fields while RG's use lorentz forces.  However...  I would like to direct your attention to a simple formula: F=ma.  Judging by the size of the object, you can estimate it to be a few miles long and a few hundred yards wide, but for simplicity's sake, let's say 5 kilometers long and .75 kilometers wide.  Also, railguns in sci-fi typically move at relativistic speeds, so let's say .5c or 1.5x10^8.  Do I really need to do the calculation for you as to what is going to happen to anything in that thing's way?

Also, you should realize that the Egg has received a late game nerf in the way of Nano and its colonize sucks in comparison to the other ones...

Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top

i agree the egg's colonize doesnt match the other races colonizer caps. but it is by far the most powerfull colonizer cap and probably ranks somwhere 3-5 overall. nano still great ability and better than nano is its gravity waepon thing. and it has one of the better lvl6 abilities. suck planet gives u resources and kills planets fast as crap...

most of my point was that the egg, desolator, halycon, sova and marza are perfect. the skirantra needs slight nerf (mainly scramble bombers) and every other cap needs slight buff (some more than others)

Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top

No its not.  It certainly used to be, but not more.  It used to be the Egg, Marza, and Mothership that were the most powerful caps, but each one got nerfed, the egg more than the others.  For this reason, I believe its colonize should be buffed because as is, there is no point to it.  At least colony frigates can turn into Orkies, but the Egg has faded from the forefront.

Also, The Marza needs IS buffed.  It increases DPS by 3.  That is not that much compared with the power of its other abilities which can easily deal far more damage.

And thirdly, it is the Antorak Maurader that has Phase Out Hull, Distort Gravity, and Subversion.  You may think that POH is good because its an interrupt, but it sucks up a crap load of AM and also, the Kortul PASSIVELY interrupts anything it shoots at.  Subversion is ultra-situational, so in other words, until level six, this ship is crap, unlike the awesome ship you described it as.

The actual Vulkoras Desolator is no better off.  It is the best planet bomber in the game, but it has zero combat ability because PMS is one of the worst offensive abilities in the game.

Reply #68 from Stardock Forums Top

@Derek- you mean the Antorak Marauder. The Desolator is the Vasari planet-bomber cap. The Marauder has POH+Distort Gravity.

Reply #69 from Sins Forums Top

@Agent:  In sins, everything hits everything (aside from SC) every time. Do you see a problem here? Firing 300 of anything at anything ought to annihilate that target, but you seem to think otherwise.

Then we simply have a fundamental disagreement on this issue, and will have to agree to disagree.  I think that capships ought to fulfill their role, which is impossible with the mechanics you advocate.

I can answer the question of this thread, "the priority of the fixing of underpowered capital abilities."  The prority is dead last on the list of all priorities in the game.  It is so last that it should never be gotten around to.  Why?  Because caps don't fulfill their role, and will never fulfill their role under the mechanics you advocate, so there is no need to waste time fixing their underpowered abilities.  They are expensive decorations and nothing more.

Reply #70 from Sins Forums Top

Well...  There is another way...  In my mod, I add in a new type of frigate...  This thing has the sole purpose of taking down late game LRF/Bombers because it deals anti-light damage, and a lot of it.  Not to mention that it is tier 7/8 (depending on race).  That said, here are the preliminary statistics for these ships:

 

Marksman Defense Cruiser
Hull: 2300
Shields: 750
AM: 350
Weapons:
 Fore: Two H-RF Autocannons 6 DPS, One Missile Tube (when fighting bigger things than SC) 10 DPS
 Port/Starboard: Three H-RF Autocannons 8 DPS
 Aft: Two Light Autocannons 3 DPS
 Total DPS Versus SC: 25
 Total DPS: 35
EXP Yielded Upon Death: 125
Abilities:
 Fragmentation Rounds: Deals 10 splash damage with all autocannons [Passive]
 Volley: Reduces the CD of all autocannons by 100% for 60 seconds.  Costs 75 AM

Inquisitor Vessel [Advent]
Hull: 1100
Shields: 2100
AM: 240
Weapons:
 Fore: Four Laser Cannons 12 DPS, Two Plasma Cannons 8 DPS
 Port/Starboard: Two Laser Cannons Cannons: 7 DPS
 Total DPS: 32
 EXP Yielded Upon Death: 125
Abilities:
 Retribution: Returns 25% of all damage dealt to this unit [Passive]
 Inquisition: Reduces damage dealt by all SC within range (3500) by 40% for 10 seconds.  Costs 65 AM

Lasharak Protector [Vasari]
Hull: 1850
Shields: 1350
AM: 275
Weapons:
 Fore: Two Pulse Beam Cannons 6 DPS, Three Wave Cannons 9 DPS
 Port/Starboard: Three Pulse Beam Cannons 9 DPS
 Aft: Three Pulse Beam Cannons 9 DPS
 Total DPS: 39 DPS
EXP Yielded Upon Death: 125
Abilities:
 Graviton Warheads: Reduces the speed and increases the CD of of all ships hit by this ship's weapons by 50% and 30% respectively for 10 seconds.  Only applies to Wave Cannons.  Costs 75 AM
Imperial Guard: Reduces all damage taken by nearby forces (4000) by 30% [Passive]

 

These fix the problem, but as far as the devs adding this goes...  Its not going to happen.  Maybe in Sins II, but not in Sins I.  The idea though is that these souped up flak frigates target bombers and LRF late game and also defend the fleet against other threats.  This makes them a very powerful unit and creates a combat triangle of the late game units: LRF>HC>DC>LRF.  This means that no longer can they run rampant killing your capitals at will.  This isolates capitals somewhat, but still requires input by the user.

Reply #71 from Sins Forums Top

Is another ship type really needed though?  While more variety is never bad for a game, there are enough unit types in Sins to provide an effective counter to LRFs and SC.  While people complained about scouts being used in combat roles, Ironclad clearly meant for them to remain useful mid-game by giving them researchable combat abilities (even if these could use some tweaks).  The problem last patch was that Seekers > *, not that Seekers were beating LRF.  I personally thought it was good for the game to have a more interesting opening metagame, as scouts being viable made LRF spam risky AND made LFs more useful.  All most people asked for was that all scouts be adjusted to the TEC level of stats.  Instead they all got nerfed to the point where making scouts vs. anything but mines is a bad idea.

Rebuffing scouts to the 1.4 Arcova level (Visari model may need a slightly higher cost due to the capture ability) would solve a lot of frigate related balance issues.

Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top

Is another ship type really needed though? ...

Rebuffing scouts to the 1.4 Arcova level (Visari model may need a slightly higher cost due to the capture ability) would solve a lot of frigate related balance issues.

I didn't like buffed scouts because you could play the entire game without teching up.  Indeed, if you had a player spamming nothing but scouts and lf, you were forced never to tech up.  Those two tier 0 units countered practically everything else you could throw at them.

No need for a super-flak cruiser, and no need for buffed scouts.  Just buff normal flak against lrf.  "Problem solved."

Reply #73 from Sins Forums Top

Myself and the other guys involved discussed the subject at length and DC's were deemed an important choice.  It is protection at the very late game from hoards of the things (as well as critical mass bombers).  Buffing flak against light armor could be good, but you do too much and then bombers are obsolete until late game when they reach critical mass.  Even then though, they would still be significantly weaker.  That was the reason for the new unit.  It fixes a late game problem with a late game solution.  For that reason, I came up with DC's.

Besides, if you don't like the idea, don't use the mod (once its complete anyways..  its a WIP as I'm working on capitals rather than DC right now).  At any rate, I have always thought that having LRF and bombers as the same armor type was stupid.  I always wanted fighters to be like an ultra-light with bombers as very-light.  Since you can't though...

 

Actually...  Change the anti-light bonus by +15%.  Then, increase bomber health by 17%.  This means that fighters and flak would have the same amount of difficulty taking down bombers as they do now, but would be better against LRF.  

You may want to buff anti-SC abilities a bit as well, but that opens up a can of worms with fighters, so you would have to increase their health by 17% and then the multiplier against them by 15%.

 

Those changes listed above are simple numerical changes and could be done in 5 minutes or so, but would increase the damage dealt to LRF by 17% without affecting any other unit.  This would not be terribly hard to do actually, so I see no reason why this couldn't be implemented.  The actual +17% DPS against LRf was just arbitrary.  You can pick whatever you like, but don't do too much or else it will get out of hand.  At any rate, there you go...

Reply #74 from Sins Forums Top

i think u guys are off base

flak are FINE do not buff them lol (flak kills lrf i use them all the time)

yeah my bad i meant the marauder

the egg is fine (skilled players still use it well trust me)

what ur saying is u want to go back in time where all anyone built was colony caps

and bfor scouts were buffed if u were losing mid-late game against som1 who was not teching military at all and you were then, USUCK period. end of story lol

the egg is fine now because bfor it was OP...does noone remember these things? lol

carrier caps used to suck hard donkey nuts..now they ROCK. whats wrong with that?

 only real current problem is skirantra needs slight nerf (mainly scramble bombers)

o and agent of karma....caps are more powerfull now and used more now in MP than ever before in this games history. most players (incuding me) will have 2-3 caps by midgame and 5-7 by late game. most players go 2 caps start at the begginning because they are so powerfull....when is the last time u played a game online against competent players??? lol

Reply #75 from Sins Forums Top

and on POH...cooldown is so short u can use this ability almost constantly...this also leads to running out a AM quickly but take it off auto cast lol. this is best used to save one of your caps or even better stop a running caps phase jump...it has to recharge up to jump...then u use again and agin..untill its dead. works like a charm :)