Priority of the Fixing of Underpowered Capital Abilities

These are just opinions, and you can probably argue a few of them, but ehh...  Here you go...  Also, if you have a suggestion, I would be glad to add it to the list.

Also, I will use the star system to notate what I believe the power of the ability is as well as the suggested fix(es).

 

1.  Animosity**': This gets number one for 1 purpose.  It has none.  Honestly, this ability has no true value unless facing the AI.

Pros: Stops damage from hitting friendly units

Cons: Can be overwritten by a human player

Proposed Fix A***': There is no real way that is good...  Some say to have it re-issue the order, some want it to buff the Radiance temporarily so it makes sense to target it, and then some ideas are off in left field.  In other words, I don't know what to do with this, but I'll say that it continually rebuffs the targets so that they have no option.

Proposed Fix B****: This was by another person, but anyways, the idea is that the ability would force enemy SC to run into the Radiance itself, destroying them and dealing minor damage to the Radiance.  I'll throw out some statistics for what I believe would be fair.  25 damage per SC with a range of 5000/7500/10000 and a duration of 10/20/30.  The end result is that SC get slaughtered on a grand scale allowing the Advent to quickly gain air superiority

Proposed Fix C***: This one is the idea of Agent.  It basically says that the Radiance gets a souped up version of the Guardian's shield bubble for the duration so it automatically gets it.

Proposed Fix D***': This one is by Darvin.  The idea here is that you cause all ships around the Radiance to be invincible, forcing you to target it.

Proposed Fix E***: This may not be the most powerful one, but it solves the problem.  All you have to do is change a couple lines of code and you can make this so that it makes it impossible for ships to target anything else...  In other words, you can make the ability work.

 

2.  Gauss Rail Gun*': This ability gets number 2 because it is more or less worthless.  It deals low damage which is then mitigated.  Also, because you don't want a first strike monster, you can't directly buff the damage.

Pros: Good damage against structures and as a first strike ability

Cons: Worthless once mitigation comes into play.

Proposed Fix A****: I suggest a debuff be instilled on the target that replaces the current speed break debuff.  This would be a shield break similar to what Subs do.  Along with damage, there is also a stackable damage redux of 1.5%/3.0%/4.5% for 10/12/14 seconds.  This means that the Kol also gains a value as a fleet ship and not just a standalone.

Proposed Fix B****: Agent suggested having it be a true railgun that goes through whatever the target is.  Then it could actually act as a railgun.  I would think though that at that point you would have to make it damage hull, which I am against.

Proposed Fix C****: Going off the tradition of TEC gauss turrets and the suggestions of others, here is another.  It is a debuff that reduces armor by 5/7.5/10.  If that seems like a lot, you must remember that it would only apply if you are hitting hull.

Proposed Fix D*****: This is a myriad fix.  Basically, making GRG do everything, if only in small amounts.  What this does is it basically does everything imaginable that could arise from being hit from an RBG.  This would be: mitigation reduction of 2%/3%/4%, reduction in armor by 2/3/4, passive regeneration disabled, engines handicapped, and abilities disabled. 

Faulty Fix A*****': It has been suggested many many many times that GRG simply ignore shields and go straight for hull.  No!  That would take the second least valuable ability in the game and make it unstoppable.  Not even the Vasari have a straight damage weapon like that.  If you want to know why, you could spam GRG and take down an enemy capital early game with no trouble at all.  That is WAAAAAAY too powerful.

Faulty Fix B*****: It has also been suggested that the damage be vastly increased to say 1500/2000/2500.  There are a few problems with that.  For one, that makes this more powerful than Cleansing Brilliance which is a L6.  Next, you forget that this ability can target structures so this is a turret instagib.  Not only that, but the first shot you fire in a battle deals almost full damage against shields, making this knock down enemy shields almost instantly on most capitals.  No.

 

3.  Subversion**: This ability has its uses, but they are so few and far between that it is worthless in most situations.  This increases the time it takes to build ships in the gravity well.

Pros: Definitely allows a level VI Antorak to go on a rear world killing spree without having much of a fight on its hands.

Cons: You have to wait till you have a level VI Antorak before this ability has much use.

Proposed Fix****: I believe that this ability needs a second use.  Power can be exchanged for being multi-purpose.  I suggested in another thread that this deal 1/3/5 unmitigated DPS to frigates, 5/7/9 to capitals and structures, and 9/11/13 to starbases for 10/20/30 seconds.  While it is light damage, it is some nonetheless and would make this far more useful.  Now, you may want to know how this works...  Well, let's say you use it on a planet.  The target filter gives it a debuff that slows construction times.  Say you want it to deal damage to all nearby enemies?  Target yourself.

 

 

4.  Phase Missile Swarm*': These things are crap

Pros: these things are crap

Cons: these things are crap

Proposed Fix****: Spawns two types of missiles.  First type ignores shields and hits the hull.  The other hits shields.  Also, change the target cap to 10/20/30

 

 

5.  Guidance***: It takes AM to reduce cooldowns, but then again, you don't need that, so you just end up burning AM...

Pros: Reduces cooldowns on capital abilities

Cons: Sucks up too much AM for something that accelerates AM loss...

Proposed Fix: I don't have one.

 

6.  Shield Restore: This is great for keeping a single capital alive, while being FF'd, but still, its not that much later in the game...

Pros: Good amount of shield healed

Cons: Can't aim at self and not enough late game.

Proposed Fix****: Courtesy of Darvin, I believe that there should be a buff that increases mitigation to 90% for 10/12/14 seconds in addition to the current heal and being able to target itself.

 

7.  Phase Out Hull**: This was improved, but I don't think the devs did quite enough...

Pros: Versatile interrupt

Cons: Neither option does that much

Proposed Fix***': Change the amount of damage/healed to 200/300/400.

 

8.  Magnetize**': This is kinda meh...

Pros: Good at stopping early game SC

Cons: You don't get a Dunov early game

Proposed Fix A***': Causes SC to crash into the target and create a "toxic" debris field damaging all units within 5000/6000/7000 for 5/10/15 DPS for 60 seconds.

Proposed Fix B*****: Causes variable effects based on level.  Level 1 is same as normal; SC crash into the target.  2 causes frigates to crash into the target as well.  3 causes capital ships to crash into the target (though neither these nor the frigates are totally destroyed. 

Proposed Fix C****:  Causes SC to crash into the target, but it also allows you to target your own ships so you aren't destroyed by kiting

 

9.  Colonize [Jarrasul]*': This does very very little in comparison to the others

Pros: Increases build speed

Cons: Increases build speed by a measly 20%

Proposed Fix A***: Increase build speed buff to 20%/40%/60%

Proposed Fix B****: Cause it to start the planet off with say 100/200/300 population.

 

10.  Targeting Uplink**': This gives a range boost and accuracy, but that's about it.

Pros: Increases range slightly and increases anti-SC accuracy

Cons: Neither do that much to gameplay

Proposed Fix****: A stacking DPS increase buff.  Cause all ships in range to be instilled with a buff that causes them to pass on a debuff to whatever they shoot at.  This debuff stacks, but only lasts for 3 seconds.  Each one increases damage dealt to the target by .25%/.50%/.75%.  This means that if you have 100 ships affect by TU, you get a 75% increase in damage against a target.  This would make FFing targets more effective and would give the Akkan an ability that actually helps its allies more or less directly as opposed to its others which are incredibly indirect.

 

11.  Adaptive Forcefield***': An ability that vastly increases the Kol's life, but also drain AM.

Pros: Nullifies PM's and reduces damage

Cons: Drains AM quickly

Proposed Fix***': Make passive and reduce damage redux to 7.5%/15%/22.5%

 

12.  Incendiary Shells**': These things only increase DPS to a target by 6.

Pros: Increases DPS to the target by 6

Cons: Increase DPS to the target by 6

Proposed Fix***': Cause it to also reduce armor by 1/2/3 pointsStardock Entertainment

Faulty Fix*****: Current system, but causes damage directly to hull and stacks.  This is bad.  Stacking by itself is WAY too powerful.  The Marza is a capital with almost all its weapons facing forward which means that four banks will fire on one target.  This means that you will have about 8 buffs stacked on top of one another.  That means that it would deal 40 DPS directly to hull.  This is a passive!  You don't need that kind of power on a passive!

13.  Malice***: This is a modest ability on a great ship that always ends up with points elsewhere.

Pros: Spreads Damage

Cons: On a great ship and is not used because it does not compete with the other abilities

Proposed Fix****': Increase target cap to 30/40/50 and propagate 20%/40%/60% of damage

 

14.  Jam Weapons***: This ability nullifies SC, but does not do anything to harm them.

Pros: Stops SC damage

Cons: Drains a ton of AM and deals no damage.

Proposed Fix A****: Cause SC weapons to "malfunction" and rather than damaging the target, they damage the SC itself for 50% of the DPS.

Proposed Fix B***': Increase range from 4500/5500/6500 to 5000/6000/7000

 

Well, there you go..  Those are the abilities I think need buffs and the order in which I think they deserve to be fixed.

146,247 views 125 replies
Reply #1 Top

Well if you are going to do this thread proper, why not edit your post to include the various proposals out there?  Darvin and I both have ideas about animosity, why not add them?  I had an idea a while back about GRG (make it a true rail gun - have the shot go clean through anything in its path, and keep going).  I have also posted ideas about magnetize and subversion.  Others have proposed plenty ideas on various abilities I'm sure.  Why not add all ideas that everyone agrees aren't totally ridiculous, and have this be a "clearing house" for ideas on buffing caps?

Reply #2 Top

Gladly, but I haven't done that as I haven't had the time to do so yet...

 

As far as your ideas for Ani go in that thread, I don't really think that they would work as intended as it just ends up being another Shield bubble ability...

Reply #3 Top

Change Guass Rail Gun damage type so it ignores mitagation, and tweak damage/cooldown accordingly.  It doesn't need a debuff, the Kol is a straight-forward ship with simple abilities.  What it needs is to stomp opposing non-battleship cap ships in 1v1 fights.

Reply #4 Top

Personally I think targeting uplink is fine.  When you're either defending a starbase or trying to take one down, extra range is invaluable.  Perhaps it is a little niche, but it's extraordinarily effective when dealing with static weapons emplacements.  Heck, max it out and LRM's can attack starbases from outside retaliation range...

Jam Weapons is also fine as is.  It's a little on the weak side, but 60 antimatter every 25-45 seconds isn't a big deal.  In fact, with antimatter regeneration over its fairly long duration, the Kortul will only run out of antimatter if you're spamming both of its abilities.  I think it's fine, and if you want to buff it this ability doesn't need anything drastic, maybe just a bit more area.

Malice and POH certainly could use buffs, but I wouldn't use the word "priority" with regards to them.

Unfortunately, I can't remember my old suggestion towards magnetize.  I seem to recall crunching numbers based on carrier replacement rates, but I can't remember my results.  What I do know is that magnetize is best used by putting it on the target carrier itself, causing fresh strike craft replacements that have just launched (at 100% health) to crash.  You can't even dock strike craft to counter this since that will bring your existing strike craft into the effect of magnetize.

Reply #5 Top

GRG cannot be made to ignore mitigation while still going through shields..  Its just part of the way the game is coded...

 

TU...  I just think it is a niche ability..  I just can't ever seem to find a use for it...  Sure it has its uses, but like Subversion, those are few and far between.  That is why I suggested buffs to both that make them useful all the time.  Its not anything huge, but it makes the Akkan the best late game supporting cap out there by having a bonus on ships that scales with fleet size.  Combined with a Cielo, TU would give the TEC a good bonus late game which is when they are weakest.

JW: I'll put the idea of increased range up as another option...

Malice: Yeah, its not a priority, but then again, that is why its at the bottom.  Its not terribly important, and I had gone through the important ones already.

POH: I think it does need a buff.  Nothing huge, but currently all that happens is that the time that the object is PO'd increases while the CD of the ability also increases.  That means that at level 1 this ability is pretty much as good as it gets...  I want upper levels to mean something...

Mag: I'll think on this and possibly use what you said in a new idea...

 

EDIT: I added in a new mag idea...  It won't be pretty for the enemy fleet.  Simply put, it is the only fix I rated at *****.  Its powerful.

Reply #6 Top

I think my animosity idea was certainly "within reason."  You didn't like it, but I like it and others liked it and said so.  I would like to see you add it, otherwise you are basically saying its ridiculous and not even worth a mention.  At the very least, wouldn't you rather have it than what you have now?  Also, the point is that while an idea might not be perfect, it can trigger another idea (in a reader's head, in a dev's head).  Also, people can have ideas for how to adjust a non-perfect idea to make it a pretty good idea.

I think Darvin's idea for Animosity was making everything in a bubble around the Radiance invulnerable for a time, forcing you to either attack the Radiance or nothing at all.

The problem with magnetize is obvious, if you ever actually try to use the ability:  you can't magnetize your own ships/structures.  Enemy carriers pop into the other side of your grav well.  The bombers are let loose and fly right toward your Dunov.  You can't magnetize the enemy, because they are on the other side of the grav well.  If you try to close with them, they kite you.  You can't magnetize one of your own frigs or structures.  It makes it so magetize is extremely situational and difficult to use.  It also makes it so a lone Dunov cannot counter a lone carrier cap in a rush - the carrier cap just kites and makes sure the Dunov can't magnetize it, and it kills the Dunov (I've tried this 1v1 many times).  Anyway, why not add this obvious, simple adjustment to magnetize?

Reply #7 Top

Added, and I don't really ever play TEC...  Vasari 95%, Advent 4%, TEC 1%.  I don't play as them often...

Reply #8 Top

updated OP

Reply #9 Top

Volt, in regards to GRG I like the idea of adding a better debuff, but I think it should fit with what already exists for the TEC Gauss technologies. If you look at the TEC defense turrents, the Rail Gun upgrade for the Gauss Defense turrents adds a -3 armor debuff to the target. I like the idea of extending this or some variation to GRG which would turn it into a nice fleet support when accompanied with LRM's or Heavies.

I also agree the to Faulty options are really bad. Two Kols with decent AM reserves would wipe out enemy capital ships after few shots each. I actually tried it just to see it in action and while it was fun to use the Kol this way, it was way over powered.

Reply #10 Top

I suggest you give GRG a metric ton of debuffs. Nothing huge numbe wise just a wide effect on many things.

 

For example:

Increase ability cooldown

Reduce weapon firerate

Reduce passive regen

Reduce speed (already does this)

Reduce max Migitation

Increase ability cost

 

I could go on and on. But my point is that instead of trying to balance the damage aspect of GRG, why not take the Devs idea and run with it. Give it about 3-4 different small debuffs. That way it can affect the ship no matter what their doing...running, charging, tanking, etc etc etc.

 

 

 

 

Reply #11 Top

Well, I added in both suggestions, though I am not terribly fond of Carbon's idea.  Maybe I'm the only one or it will give someone else an idea...

 

EDIT: I found something in the entity file for Animosity that is the key to fixing it the right way...

 

numInstantActions 2

instantAction

buffInstantActionType "PlayAttachedEffect"

instantActionTriggerType "OnDelay"

delayTime 0.000000

effectInfo

effectAttachInfo

attachType "Center"

smallEffectName "Buff_Taunt"

largeEffectName "Buff_Taunt"

soundID "EFFECT_TAUNT_RESPONSE"

instantAction

buffInstantActionType "SetTauntTargetToLastSpawner"

instantActionTriggerType "OnDelay"

delayTime 0.000000

numPeriodicActions 0

 

All you need to do is change this to:

 

numInstantActions 1

instantAction

buffInstantActionType "PlayAttachedEffect"

instantActionTriggerType "OnDelay"

delayTime 0.000000

effectInfo

effectAttachInfo

attachType "Center"

smallEffectName "Buff_Taunt"

largeEffectName "Buff_Taunt"

soundID "EFFECT_TAUNT_RESPONSE"

numPeriodicActions 1

periodicAction

buffInstantActionType "SetTauntTargetToLastSpawner"

instantActionTriggerType "OnDelay"

delayTime 0.000000

 

That's all you have to do!  Just make it so that it retargets the Radiance more or less constantly and you'll discover that the ability works as intended.  I'll need someone to confirm that this works in game, as I am afraid it could cause lag, but I don't think it would be too much of an issue..  If that failed, you can just switch it to overtimeAction and have it update every second.  Either way, its good.

Reply #12 Top

Please read previous post...  I know that I didn't do the syntax exactly correct, but it gets the point across...

Reply #13 Top

You don't want to make it too frequent, or it becomes a win button in large battles.  I don't know if people here played Warcraft 3, but there was a unit there called the Mountain Giant that basically had Animosity.  Like the Radiance, with one Mountain Giant you could easily micro and make the ability useless.  With 3-4, you suddenly had a big problem as they could chain the ability resulting in your units never being able to target properly.  Two Radiances with an Animosity that triggered every couple seconds would result in an enemy fleet that was forced to kill the radiances before they could attack the rest of your fleet (aka the real threat).  You could move one radiance behind the enemy battle line, trigger Animosity.  Then activate Animosity #2 on the radiance in front of the enemy fleet.  And don't tell me people wouldn't have eventually done this if I didn't mention it.  These are the same players who were able to break Repulse.

You cannot make an ability that potentially prevents enemy micro, as it is game breaking.  Something else needs to be done.  Maybe even scrap Animosity altogether and make a new ability.  The other battleship caps have an anti-SC ability.  What if the Radiance got Telekinetic Push, and the Haylcon got something new instead?  This would help out the Radiance a lot, and the Haylcon could use an ability that's useful outside of SC vs SC fights.

Reply #14 Top

I don't know if people here played Warcraft 3, but there was a unit there called the Mountain Giant that basically had Animosity

I certainly noticed it, and I agree with what you're saying.  At least 4 or 5 mountain giants would eat up nearly half your population cap.  In Sins, two Radiances could easily be less than an eighth of a large fleet, and the effect is only more disruptive due to long turning times.

Maybe even scrap Animosity altogether and make a new ability.

That's what I'm in favour of.

Reply #15 Top

Well, what would it be replaced with?

Reply #16 Top

I've already made the suggestion of an ability that would make all nearby units (except the Radiance itself) invulnerable.  I'm open to alternate suggestions, if you have any.

Reply #17 Top

But with two Radiances, I think you would still have an I-win button unless you can put in a target filter for it so that it ignores all all spawners, but I don't know how you could code that to do it properly...

And I was thinking you meant scrap the idea of Animosity and replace it from the ground up rather than just changing the method it uses...

Reply #18 Top

Yeah, I already said it would need to exclude other Radiances that are using this ability.

And I was thinking you meant scrap the idea of Animosity and replace it from the ground up rather than just changing the method it uses...

There's not a big difference.  The only similarity between the traditional animosity and my version is that they're area of effect abilities designed to force you to focus on the Radiance.  Beyond that, they're entirely different abilities.

By the way, my suggestion actually comes from a Warcraft III ability called "big bad voodoo" that makes all nearby friendly units invincible except the caster (it's a level 6 channeling ability in WC3)

Reply #19 Top

Actually, what if you changed it so that it so that it instantly buffs allied units to make them invincible for the duration, but then also apply a buff to yourself that makes you vulnerable.  That way its not an I-win button as having multiple radiances woulndn't cause enemy ships to not have anything to tager...

Reply #20 Top

He said it would need to exclude other Radiances that are using this ability, LOL.

Reply #21 Top

You can't do that though... You can't have an ability simply ignore one type of ship...  So, that's why I said that...

Reply #22 Top

You can't do that though... You can't have an ability simply ignore one type of ship

Why not?  Certain abilities already do ignore certain types of ships.  Subverters can't shut down capships, for instance.  In Starcraft, an Arbiter would not cloak itself, nor other Arbiters.

The precedence for abilities ignoring one type of ship is legion.

Reply #23 Top

Subverters can't shut down capships, for instance.  In Starcraft, an Arbiter would not cloak itself, nor other Arbiters.

There's a difference between excluding a specific capital ship (Radiance) and excluding all capital ships.  The Arbiter example is not valid since that's another game.  There's no assurances that Sins is coded in such a way to support such an ability. 

Reply #24 Top

Does the Radiance really need a 'target me!' ability though?  Unlike the Kortul and Kol, it was never intended to be a tank but more of a cap ship killer.  I mean, considering how fast cap ships die to focus fire does your opponent actually need an incentive to target the Radiance with everything they have?  If we're going to rip off Warcraft 3 for skill ideas, what about Mirror Image?  It's in line with what Advent does (in fact, Illums already do this with research) and would be more useful for the role the Radiance has in mind; stay alive long enough to mana burn anti-matter burn the the enemy caps into uselessness.

This would of course work out best if all battleship caps got a moderate weapon/health to go with any skill improvements.

Reply #25 Top

Well, as I was coding the other day, I found an interesting set of lines in the code.  In the capitalship_raceclass.entity files, there are these lines that of course set its health.  But what I found interesting is that you can make a type of cap go far higher than just 76%.  You can adjust the starting amount and the gain per level, meaning that if you just buffed that stat for battleships, it would increase their survivability.