Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

For Sins 1.18 and Entrenchment 1.04

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

* Topics shoud be considered independent of eachother, vote for each topic as if the Devs were to choose only 1. Yay for fixes that you think would work, nay for fixes that you think won't*

** Now there's an easier way to cast your vote, download the easy entry form, fill it out and then copy and paste your results!**

>> Download The Easy Entry Form <<

REFERENCES
Several members of the community have taken it upon themselves to run tests to prove imbalances and recommend possible fixes. I would Encourage everyone commenting here to read these and become more informed.
Raging Amish's Lums vs Enforcers                           JJs HC Tests                      JJs Illum Tests

Deceivers Subjugator thread                        Deceivers Cap Carrier thread         

RAGING AMISH's Balance MOD

Game Bugs

These need to be addressed before anything else. The following is a compiled list of all known game bugs. Thanks to Pawelo for helping me compile and test these. If you can think of any others that aren't on here leave a comment to let me know.

-Embargo Level 2 and 3 do not stop cargo ships.

-Phasic Trap Research level 2 does not do anything.

-Magnetize does not interrupt channeled abilities

-Disruptive Strikes does not work on pulse beams

-Allegiance through wormholes is flawed.

-Wrong Sound effects on: Anima Tempest, repair cloud, nanite armor, EMP blast

-Infocard errors: Dunov shield restore does not increase mitigation, labs do not speed up build time

-Akkan Colonize ability does not always spawn extractors at lvl2 and lvl3.

-Subverters Disrupt Shields can not target structures with shields

-Some musics and Orange Skybox are not used.

 

SOLANUS ADJUDICATORS

The adjudicator, while it can target multiple structures, just doesnt have the punch its TEC cousin the Ogrovs has and has difficulty handling tight clusters of structures supported by repair bays. Also, without a well functioning healing unit, the poor adjudicator simply cant live long enough in the throws of battle to make a huge difference. We've discussed the changes, now its time to get official votes on them.

     Buff the Adjudicator-
                         Change armor type?:

                              Yay-           JuleTron              Kitkun                           N3rull
                                               eoncommander

                              Nay-           Dargoon999         Warlord Mike

                         Reduce supply cost?:

                              Yay-           JuleTron              Kitkun                            Dargoon999
                                               Warlord Mike        Darvin3                         SivCorp
                                              
eoncommander

                              Nay-           

                         Reduce number of firing banks to increase damage per target?:

                              Yay-            Warlord Mike        eoncommander

                              Nay-            Kitkun                  N3rull                            Dargoon999

                         Increase damage?:

                              Yay-            Warlord Mike         eoncommander

                              Nay-            Kitkun                  Dargoon999

                         Increase shields?:

                             Yay-            JuleTron                Kitkun                           eoncommander

                             Nay-            Dargoon999           Warlord Mike

      No Fix Needed-                    Ryat                      Extremor

MINES

These little critters were introduced in Entrenchment and have been seldom used. They are purely defensive, extremely expensive, and a huge gamble to put your money in. There's been much discussion on possible fixes, but now its time for an official vote, so here you go.

      Buff Mines
                        Increase damage?

                            Yay-              Juletron                Whiskey144                 SivCorp
                                                Extremor

             
               Nay-              EadTaes               Raging Amish               Ovi_187
                                                Kitkun                  eoncommander

                        Increase damage radius?

                            Yay-             Top Vasari             Whiskey144                  EadTaes
                                               Warlord Mike          Ovi_187                        SivCorp
                                               Extremor                eoncommander

                            Nay-             Juletron                 N3rull                           Raging Amish
                                               Kitkun

                        Increase activation radius?

                            Yay-             Warlord Mike         eoncommander

                            Nay-             EadTaes                JuleTron                       N3rull
                                              
Raging Amish         Ovi_187                       Kitkun
                                               Extremor

                        Increase mines per deployment?

                            Yay-             eoncommander

                            Nay-             EadTaes                N3rull                         Raging Amish
                                              
Warlord Mike          Ovi_187                     Kitkun
                                              
Extremor

                        Increase deployment spread?

                            Yay-           Warlord Mike            Extremor                    eoncommander

                            Nay-           Juletron                   EadTaes                     N3rull
                                             Raging Amish           Ovi_187                     Kitkun

                        Decrease cost?

                            Yay-           Juletron                   Mindseye(25%)           EadTaes(25%)
                                             Dargoon999             Whiskey144
                N3rull(20%)
                                            
Warlord Mike            Ovi_187                     Kitkun
                                             Extremor

                            Nay-           Raging Amish            eoncommander

                        Reduce build time for Proximity Mines(TEC)?

                            Yay-           Juletron                   Whiskey144                EadTaes
                                             Raging Amish           Warlord Mike               Ovi_187
                                             Kitkun                      Extremor

                            Nay-

                        Increase duration of Gravity Mines(Vasari)?
 
                            Yay-           Juletron                   N3rull                  Mindseye
                                            
Ovi_187                   Kitkun                 Extremor

                            Nay-           EadTaes                  Raging Amish

                        Fix homming mines AI to return to original deployment location(Advent)?
 
                            Yay-           JuleTron                  EadTaes              N3rull
                                             Mindseye                 Warlord Mike       Ovi_187
                                            
SivCorp                    Kitkun                Extremor
                                            
eoncommander

                            Nay-           Raging Amish

                        Make Gravity Mines an upgrade to existing mines?

                            Yay-           N3rull                      Juletron               Dargoon999
                                             Ue-Carbon               Deceiver_0           Mindseye
                                            
Kitkun                     Extremor
                                          

                            Nay-           EadTaes                  Raging Amish

      No fix needed-

SIEGE FRIGATES

Costing more than most Heavy Cruisers, one would expect siege frigates to be able to handle a simple task like bombing a planet to oblivion, but with their super thin and weak hulls they certainly aren't worth the cost, and with Entrenchments bombardment protection on starbases, siege frigates find themselves in the obsolete unit pile. Personally I think they should be tough as nails since all they do is bomb planets and cost loads of resources and precious supply. With a decent buff these units could be the terror they once were and possibly bring back some of the planetary defense tech that fell from use after their nerf. (planetary shielding anyone?)

      Buff Siege Frigates

                        Increase Hp/shields/armor?:
 
                              Yay-             Deceiver_0(Hp)     Volt_Cruelerz   Darvin3
                                                  Ryat
                   EadTaes         Dargoon999(10%)
                                                  N3rull(+nerf)        
Kitkun            eoncommander   


                              Nay-             Soasertsus         Cykur                Mindseye
                                                 Raging Amish      Ascension          Howdidudothat
                                                 Ovi_187              Sobric               Warlord Mike
                                                 Extremor

                        Change armor type (currently light)?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0(v. heavy)  Soasertsus(v. heavy)  Volt_Cruelerz(heavy/v.heavy)
                                                
EadTaes (heavy)        Dargoon999(heavy)    N3rull(heavy)
                                                
SivCorp                     Extremor(heavy)         eoncommander


                              Nay-             Darvin3              Cykur                Ryat
                                                
Mindseye            Raging Amish     Ascension
                                                
Howdidudothat     Ovi_187             Sobric
                                                
Warlord Mike       Kitkun
 
                        Decrease Resource cost?:

                              Yay-             Soasertsus        Darvin3               EadTaes
                                                  Howdidudothat
  Sobric                 Extremor              


                              Nay-             Volt_Cruelerz      Cykur                 Ryat 
                                                 Dargoon999        Mindseye           Raging Amish
                                                 Ascension           Ovi_187             Warlord Mike
                                                 Kitkun

                        Decrease Supply Cost?:

                              Yay-            Soasertsus(6)     Darvin3               Cykur
                                                 Ryat(10)           EadTaes(10)        Dargoon999(10)
                                                 Mindseye          Howdidudothat      Raging Amish(12)
                                                 Ascension(12)   Ovi_187                mbaron888(8)
                                                 Sobric              Warlord Mike         SivCorp
                                                 Kitkun              eoncommander

                             
                              Nay-            Volt_Cruelerz     Extremor  

                        Increase Bombardment damage?:

                              Yay-            Volt_Cruelerz     Dargoon999(20%) Warlord Mike
                                                 Extremor

             
                              Nay-            Soasertsus         Darvin3               Cykur
                                               
Ryat                  EadTaes              Mindseye
                                               
Raging Amish     Ascension            Howdidudothat
                                               
Ovi_187             Sobric                 SivCorp
                                               
Kitkun                eoncommander


                        Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0        Soasertsus            Volt_Cruelerz
                                                 Darvin3            Cykur                   Ryat
                                                
Dargoon999      N3rull                   Mindseye
                                                 Raging Amish    Ovi_187               Sobric
                                                 Warlord Mike     Kitkun


                              Nay-             EadTaes           Ascension             Howdidudothat

                        Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?:

                              Yay-             Darvin3          Sobric                     Warlord Mike

                             
                              Nay-             Soasertsus       Volt_Cruelerz          Cykur
                                                 Ryat                EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                
Mindseye         Raging Amish          Ascension
                                                
Howdidudothat  Ovi_187                 Kitkun

                        Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?:

                              Yay-             Soasertsus       Darvin3(40)            Cykur
                                                 EadTaes(15)     Dargoon999(30)     Ovi_187
                                                 Kitkun


                              Nay-             Volt_Cruelerz    Ryat                     Mindseye
                                                
Raging Amish   Ascension              Howdidudothat
                                                 Sobric              Warlord Mike
                       
                        Apply fixes to siege militia?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0         Soasertsus              Volt_Cruelerz
                                                
Darvin3              EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish     Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                                 Warlord Mike      Kitkun                    Extremor

                            
                              Nay-             Ryat                  Ascension              Howdidudothat             

                        Apply fixes to siege pirates?:

                              Yay-             Darvin3              EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish      Ovi_187                 Warlord Mike
                                                 Kitkun                Extremor


                              Nay-             Soasertsus         Volt_Cruelerz           Ryat
                                                 
Ascension          Howdidudothat         Sobric


      No Fix Needed-

 

SEREVUN OVERSEER

The overseer is a powerful, but seldom used ship due to it's current lack of usability. I'd recommend anyone planning on voting on this topic read a few of the replies on page 5, where Ascension and I debated some changes. I've also thrown in a few ideas to make overseers 'Jump Degradation' ability a little more potent for the 100AM and channeling it costs.

      Buff Serevun Overseers-
                       
                         Increase firing arc of abilities?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0           JuleTron                Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  Ascension            Soasertsus             milo896

                                                  Howdidudothat     lifekatana               N3rull
                                                  Mindseye            Cykur                     EadTaes
                                                 
Raging Amish      Ovi_187                 Warlord Mike  
                                                  Kitkun                 Extremor                eoncommander

                              Nay-             Pbhead                Sobric
                      
                         Increase turn rate?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0           JuleTron                Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  Ascension           
Soasertsus             milo896
                                                  Howdidudothat     lifekatana              N3rull
                                                 
Mindseye            Pbhead                  Raging Amish 
                                                  Ovi_187              Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                  Extremor             eoncommander

                              Nay-             EadTaes              Sobric                    SivCorp

                         Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional (360 degrees)?:

                              Yay-              Ascension           Raging Amish          Sobric
                                                 
Warlord Mike       SivCorp                   Extremor

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0          Soasertsus              Darvin3                                              
                                                  milo896
              Howdidudothat         lifekatana
                                                  N3rull                 Mindseye                 Pbhead
                                                  EadTaes             Ovi_187                   Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                      
   Increase reduction of jump speed for 'Jump Degradation'?:

                              Yay-              milo896              Howdidudothat         Mindseye
                                                 
EadTaes              Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                                  Kitkun                 Extremor                 eoncommander

                              Nay-              Soasertsus          lifekatana               Pbhead
                                                  Raging Amish
 
                         Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % to incoming enemy vessels' hulls?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0 (5-10%)  Soasertsus(20%AM)  Darvin3
                                                  milo896              N3rull(speed reduction)  Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                              Nay-              Howdidudothat     lifekatana              Mindseye
                                                  Pbhead               EadTaes                 Raging Amish
                                                 
Ovi_187              Sobric                     Extremor

                        Allow 'Jump Degradation' to disable passive regeneration?

                              Yay-              Raging Amish       Deceiver_0              Diplominator
                                                  Juletron               
Sobric                    Extremor                 

                              Nay-              Ovi_187               Howdidudothat         Cykur
                                                  Kitkun

         No Fix Needed-


SKAROVAS ENFORCER

The relative weakness of the Enforcer has recently been brought to the forums attention (thanks JohnJames). With their higher resource cost, higher supply cost and more expensive upgrades, enforcers are unfortunately left in the dust by their counterparts. Many speculate that their extra ability (reintegration) is the cause for such a skewed balance, while others agree that reintegration lacks the power enforcers deserve. The following are some fixes that have been proposed. Personally, I think the Vasari should get a little more for what they pay for.

           Buff Skarovas Enforcers-

                         Decrease Resource Cost?:

                              Yay-              Ascension              EadTaes                  Sobric          

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0             Soasertsus               Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  lifekatana     
         Howdidudothat          Darvin3
                                                  Mindseye               Raging Amish            Ovi_187
                                                 
Warlord Mike          Kitkun                      Extremor  
                                                 
eoncommander      
               
                         Decrease Supply Cost?:

                              Yay-              Soasertsus             Sobric                       Extremor

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0             Volt_Cruelerz             lifekatana
                                           
       Howdidudothat        Darvin3                     Mindseye
                                                  EadTaes                 Raging Amish            Ovi_187
                                                 
Kitkun                    eoncommander

                     
    Increase hp/shields/armor?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0               Darvin3                   EadTaes(armor+1)
                                                  Raging Amish           SivCorp                   Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander
                           
                              Nay-              Volt_Cruelerz           Soasertsus               lifekatana
                                                 
Howdidudothat         Mindseye                 Ovi_187
                                                 
Sobric                     Extremor

                    
     Increase Damage?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Soasertsus                Ascension
                                                  JuleTron                 
Darvin3                    Howdidudothat
                                                  Mindseye                
Cykur                      EadTaes(22)
                                                  Raging Amish(21.6)  Ovi_187                   Sobric
                                                  Warlord Mike           SivCorp                    Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                              Nay-              Volt_Cruelerz           lifekatana                Extremor         

            
             Cheaper damage upgrades?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Volt_cruelerz              Top Vasari
                                                   Ascension               DesConnor                Raging Amish
                                                   N3rull                     lifekatana                 JuleTron 

                                                  
Darvin3                  Howdidudothat           Mindseye
                                                  
EadTaes                 Sobric                       Warlord Mike
                                                  
SivCorp                  Extremor                   eoncommander     

                              Nay-              Soasertsus              Ovi_187                    Kitkun

                    
     Higher reintegration rate?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Volt_cruelerz              Top Vasari
                                                  Soasertsus              N3rull                        lifekatana
                                                  JuleTron                
Darvin3                      Howdidudothat
                                                 
Ovi_187                  Sobric                        Kitkun

                              Nay-             Mindseye                 EadTaes                    Raging Amish 
                                                 Extremor

           No Fix Needed-                 Pbhead

DOMINA SUBJUGATORS

The domina has been an a lot of peoples (f spending money on that) list for sometime. I tested and observed the subjugator while I was examining carrier caps and wrote a report on them as well. Here's some fixes that have been proposed for the Domina as well as the Stilakus Subverter (whose destiny is quite intertwined with the domina). I'll be putting the Subverter question under the REPULSE section as it has to do more as a counter to it.

          Buff Domina Subjugators-

                         Increase firing arc of abilities?:

                                Yay-            Deceiver_0             Mindseye              Darvin3
                                                  Gugabalog            
Cykur(heal only)    Raging Amish
                                                 
Ovi_187                 Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                                 
SivCorp                  Kitkun                   eoncommander       

                                Nay-            EadTaes                lifekatana             Pbhead

              
           Increase turn rate?:

                                Yay-            Deceiver_0             Darvin3                Gugabalog
                                                  Mindseye               Pbhead               
Raging Amish
                                                  Ovi_187                 Sobric                  Warlord Mike
                                                  Kitkun                    eoncommander

                                Nay-            EadTaes                lifekatana

                  
       Make abilities AOE?:

                                Yay-            Warlord Mike          SivCorp                eoncommander

                                Nay-            Deceiver_0             EadTaes               Gugabalog    
                                                  Darvin3                  lifekatana             Mindseye
                                                 
Pbhead                  Raging Amish        Ovi_187
                                                 
Sobric                    Kitkun

            
             Remove channeling from abilities?:

                               Yay-             EadTaes                Gugabalog             lifekatana
                                                 
Raging Amish         Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                                  Kitkun

              
                 Nay-             Deceiver_0             Darvin3                 Mindseye
                                                 
Pbhead                  Ovi_187                SivCorp
                                                  eoncommander

                
         Fix Targeting AI (on all abilities for all races) to prevent wasteful use?:

                               Yay-             Deceiver_0             Darvin3                  EadTaes
                                                  Gugabalog             Soasertsus             lifekatana
                                                  Mindseye               Pbhead                 
Cykur
                                                 
Raging Amish         Ovi_187                 Sobric
                                                 
Warlord Mike          SivCorp                  Kitkun
                                                 
eoncommander


                               Nay-             Pbhead

           No Fix Needed-

CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS

I've noticed people use Carrier Caps generally for 1 ability, and not for the strikecraft and SC bonuses they offer. Weaker than most other classes, they are sparse and somewhat unthreatening on the battle field. Personally I think they should offer more benefit in the strike craft department than they do now. I've written a detailed report on them, and taken some of the proposed changes from it for this thread.

             Buff Carrier Caps-

                        Increase Initial Armor?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0              Soasertsus            Ryat
                                                Howdidudothat         Gugabalog          
Warlord Mike
                                                SivCorp                   Kitkun

                                Nay-          Darvin3                  -Ue_Carbon          mbaron888
                                                Pirate-Jack             EadTaes              DesConnor
                                                Swordsalmon          lifekatana           
Pbhead
                                                Raging Amish         Ovi_187               Sobric
                                                Extremor                eoncommander

            
            Increase Squadron Capacity?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0 (see thread)  Soasertsus      Ryat
                                                -Ue_Carbon              ReadyMan           Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888              Pirate-Jack          EadTaes
                                                DesConnor               Mindseye            Swordsalmon
                                                Gugabalog               N3rull                  lifekatana
                                                -aceca-                   Derek06              
Ovi_187
                                               
Sobric                     Warlord Mike        SivCorp
                                               
Kitkun                     Extremor             eoncommander

                                Nay-          Darvin3                  Raging Amish          

                
        Make SC buffs AOE?

                                Yay-          EadTaes               DesConnor               Swordsalmon
                                                Gugabalog           
Derek06                   Raging Amish
                                               
Sobric                   SivCorp                    Extremor
 
                                Nay-          Deceiver_0             Soasertsus              Ryat
                                                Darvin3                  -Ue_Carbon             Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888            Pirate-Jack               lifekatana
                                               
Pbhead                  Ovi_187                  Kitkun
                                               
eoncommander


                        Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0               Darvin3                 Howdidudothat
                                                 Mindseye                 Swordsalmon         Gugabalog
                                                
Derek06                  Raging Amish        Sobric 
                                               
SivCorp                    Kitkun               

               
                 Nay-          Soasertsus               Ryat                     -Ue_Carbon
                                                 mbaron888              Pirate-Jack           EadTaes
                                                DesConnor                lifekatana           
Pbhead
                                                Ovi_187                    Extremor             eoncommander

                        Re-work Scramble Bombers?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0               Soasertsus            Ryat
                                                Darvin3                    -Ue_Carbon          Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888              Pirate-Jack            EadTaes
                                                DesConnor               Mindseye              Swordsalmon   
                                                Gugabalog               N3rull                    lifekatana
                                                Pbhead                   
Derek06               Raging Amish
                                               
Ovi_187                   Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                               
SivCorp                    Kitkun                  Extremor
                                                eoncommander

      
                          Nay-        

           No Fix Needed-

LIGHT FRIGATES

Most agree that Light Frigates don't scale well. Being limited in their usefulness early game, and becoming almsot complete obsolete late game with Heavy Cruiser research. Many ideas have been thrown around to get light frigates back on the battle field.

            Buff Light Frigates-

                        Increase Damage?:

                                  Yay-         TheRezonator       Gugabalog               Darvin3
                                                  -Ue_carbon          Howdidudothat         JuleTron
                                                  Pirate-Jack          N3rull                      Ascension
                                                 
Cykur                  Dargoon999(20%)   Raging Amish(Vasari: 12)
                                                 
Ovi_187              SivCorp(10%)          

             
                     Nay-         Volt_cruelerz         mbaron888              DesConnor
                                                 lifekatana            
Pbhead                   EadTaes
                                                 Sobric                   Kitkun                     Extremor
                                                 eoncommander

                 
       Increase Damage bonus to heavy armor type?:

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0           TheRezonator           Gugabalog
                                                 -Ue_carbon          JuleTron                  Pirate-Jack
                                                 Howdidudothat     mbaron888              DesConnor(Light)
            
                                     Ascension            lifekatana                EadTaes
                                                 Dargoon999         Raging Amish(175%+)   Ovi_187
                                                 Sobric                  SivCorp(25%)           Kitkun
                                                
Extremor             eoncommander

                                  Nay-         Volt_cruelerz        Pbhead    
                
   
                        Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?:

                                  Yay-          Deceiver_0(armor)      TheRezonator     Gugabalog
                                                  Darvin3                      JuleTron            Ascension
                                                  lifekatana                 
Dargoon999(10%)  Ovi_187
                                                  Warlord Mike              eoncommander

                                  Nay-          Volt_cruelerz       Pirate-Jack               Howdidudothat
                                                   mbaron888        DesConnor              
Pbhead
                                                   EadTaes            Raging Amish           Sobric
                                                   SivCorp             Kitkun                      Extremor
                  
                         Increase ability range?:

                                  Yay-          Deceiver_0          TheRezonator            Gugabalog
                                                  Volt_cruelerz       -Ue_carbon                JuleTron
                                                  Ascension          
Eadtaes                     Dargoon999
                                                  Raging Amish      Ovi_187                    Sobric
                                                  Kitkun                Extremor                   eoncommander
 
                                  Nay-          Howdidudothat    mbaron888               DesConnor
                                                  lifekatana          
Pbhead                   
                                                  
                 
       Increase firing arc?:

                                  Yay-          TheRezonator       Gugabalog              -Ue_carbon
                                                  JuleTron               Pirate-Jack               Howdidudothat
                                                  DesConnor            N3rull                      Ascension
                                                 
Eadtaes                Raging Amish           Sobric
                                                  Warlord Mike        SivCorp                    Extremor

                                  Nay-          Volt_cruelerz         mbaron888               lifekatana
                                                 
Pbhead                Dargoon999              Ovi_187
                                                  Kitkun                  eoncommander

           
             Increase turn speed?:

                                  Yay-          Darvin3                 EadTaes                TheRezonator
                                                  Pirate-Jack             ReadyMan            Howdidudothat
                                                  mbaron888            DesConnor            Mindseye
                                                  N3rull                    Ascension              Pbhead
                                                 
Eadtaes                 Dargoon999          Raging Amish
                                                 
Ovi_187                 Sobric                  Warlord Mike
                                                 
SivCorp                  Extremor              eoncommander

                                  Nay-         lifekatana              Kitkun

             Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?:

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0           TheRezonator           Gugabalog
                                                 Darvin3               Volt_cruelerz             JuleTron
                                                 Pirate-Jack           mbaron888               DesConnor
                                                 N3rull                  Ascension                  lifekatana
                                                
Eadtaes               Dargoon999              Raging Amish
                                                
Ovi_187               Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                                
SivCorp                Kitkun                     Extremor
                                                 eoncommander

                                  Nay-        Howdidudothat      Pbhead

     
        Nerf Counters-

                          Decrease LRF Damage?:
   
                                  Yay-          Proletari                Darvin3               Azrak_Navarion
                                                 ReadyMan             Howdidudothat     Mindseye
                                                 Ascension             
Eadtaes               Dargoon999(10%)

                                  Nay-          Deceiver_0           Volt_cruelerz          Pirate-Jack
                                                  mbaron888          DesConnor             lifekatana
                                                 
Pbhead               Raging Amish         Ovi_187
                                                 
Sobric                 Warlord Mike           Kitkun
                                                 
Extremor             eoncommander

                          Decrease LRF damage bonus to medium armor?

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0(125%)  Ovi_187              Howdidudothat
                                                
Sobric                   eoncommander

                                  Nay-         N3rull                    Cykur                 Warlord Mike
                                                
Kitkun                   Extremor

                          Increase LRF resource cost?:

                                  Yay-         Extremor

                                  Nay-         Deceiver_0            Pirate-Jack          Howdidudothat
                                                 mbaron888            DesConnor         lifekatana
                                                
Pbhead                 Eadtaes              Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish        Ovi_187              Sobric
                                                
Warlord Mike         Kitkun                 eoncommander

         
    No Fix Needed-                Soasertsus              dresda

REPULSE:


Many have said repulse needs a fix. Personally I agree.


            Nerf Guardians-

                        Increase AM cost?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0               Raging Amish         crashmatusow
                                                Ascension                 Pirate - Jack           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Tohron                     Darvin 3                 Top vasari
                                                mbaron888               Proletari                -Ue_carbon
                                                Major  Stress            Mindseye                Azrak_Navarion
                                                lbgsloan                   Gugabalog              Soasertsus
                                                Howdidudothat          JuleTron                 DesConnor
                                                lifekatana                -aceca-                  
Derek06
                                                Cykur                      Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                               
Warlord Mike            SivCorp                  Kitkun
                                               
Extremor                  eoncommander   
                                              
                                    Nay-    dresda

                        Increase cooldown rate?

                                    Yay-      Raging Amish            Deceiver_0             Howdidudothat
                                               
Kitkun                       Extremor               eoncommander

                                    Nay-      Ovi_187                  Juletron                   Sobric
                                                 Cykur

                        Decrease AOE?:

                                    Yay-     Gugabalog                 -Ue_carbon            DesConnor
                                              
eoncommander

                    
                Nay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress         crashmatusow
                                               Mindseye                 Soasertsus              Howdidudothat
                                               dresda                     lifekatana             
Pbhead
                                              
Derek06                  Raging Amish         Ovi_187
                                              
Sobric                     Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                              
Extremor    

            
            Increase resource cost?:

                                    Yay-      Ascension                Volt_cruelerz           Sobric
                                               
Extremor          

                     
               Nay-      Pirate - Jack            Major  Stress           Soasertsus
                                                 Mindseye                 Gugabalog            Howdidudothat
                                                 dresda                    DesConnor             lifekatana
                                                
Pbhead                   Derek06                 Raging Amish
                                               
Ovi_187                   Warlord Mike           Kitkun 
                                               
eoncommander 

             
            Cause damage to shields?:

                                    Yay-      EadTaes                  Volt_cruelerz        dresda

                        
            Nay-      Major  Stress           Mindseye             Soasertsus
                                                Gugabalog              Howdidudothat      DesConnor
                                                lifekatana              
Pbhead                Derek06
                                                Raging Amish         Ovi_187                Sobric
                                                Warlord Mike         Kitkun                    Extremor
                                               
eoncommander 
 
      
       Buff Counters-

                        Increase LF ability range?:

                                    Yay-     Gugabalog                TheRezonator         Volt_cruelerz
                                               
Derek06                   Raging Amish         Sobric
                                               
SivCorp                    Kitkun                   Extremor
                                               
eoncommander          

                      
              Nay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress          Soasertsus
                                               Mindseye                  DesConnor            lifekatana
                                              
Pbhead                     Ovi_187


          
              No affect to Cap Ships?:

                                    Yay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress         Volt_cruelerz
                                               DesConnor               Cykur                  
Warlord Mike
                                              
SivCorp                    Kitkun                  Extremor
                                               eoncommander

                                    Nay-    Mindseye                  Gugabalog              Soasertsus   
                                              lifekatana                 
Pbhead                  Derek06
                                             
Raging Amish            Ovi_187                  Sobric

        
                 Increase Distortion Field (targeting) range?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0               Soasertsus              Sobric
                                              
Kitkun                      eoncommander

                   
                 Nay-     lifekatana                crashmatusow          Pbhead
                                               Raging Amish           Ovi_187                  Extremor
     


            No Fix Needed-

MISSILE BARRAGE:

This has been a heated issue for several months. In the most recent patch, the devs made the graphic unique (red missile exhaust?) and extended the duration while reducing dps. Was this enough?


            Nerf Missile Barrage-

                        Decrease total damage?:

                                    Yay-      Extremor

                                    Nay-      mbaron888             Gugabalog             TheRezonator
                                                 Volt_cruelerz          -Ue_carbon           Howdidudothat
                                                 DesConnor            
Derek06                Raging Amish
                                                
Ovi_187                 Sobric                   Warlord Mike 

               
         Increase AM cost?

                                    Yay-      Ascension               Ovi_187

                         
           Nay-      mbaron888             Gugabalog            TheRezonator
                                                 Volt_cruelerz           -Ue_carbon           Howdidudothat
                                                 DesConnor             
Derek06              Raging Amish
                                                 Sobric                     Warlord Mike       Extremor
                                      
              
          Decrease AOE?

                                    Yay-      Tohron                     mbaron888           Howdidudothat
                                                 JuleTron                  DesConnor           
Sobric

                    
                Nay-      Gugabalog                TheRezonator       Volt_cruelerz
                                                 -Ue_carbon              
Derek06               Raging Amish 
                                               
Ovi_187                    Warlord Mike         Extremor                          

        
    Buff Counters-

                        Increase range on ability interrupts?:

                                    Yay-     Tohron                   TheRezonator          Raging Amish
                                               Ovi_187                  Sobric                     Extremor

                     
               Nay-     Gugabalog              Volt_cruelerz            -Ue_carbon
                                                Howdidudothat        DesConnor

           
              LF abilities can target caps?:

                                    Yay-      Gugabalog             TheRezonator       Sobric
                                                Warlord Mike

                       
             Nay-      Volt_cruelerz         -Ue_carbon            Howdidudothat
                                                DesConnor             N3rull                  
Derek06
                                               
Raging Amish         Ovi_187               Extremor

               
        Graphic/Audio Improvement?:
 
                                    Yay-     Eadtaes                   Deceiver_0            Volt_cruelerz
                                               Gugabalog               TheRezonator        -Ue_carbon
                                               Howdidudothat          N3rull                   lifekatana
                                              
Derek06                   Cykur                   Raging Amish
                                              
Ovi_187                   Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                               SivCorp                   Kitkun                   Extremor
                                               eoncommander

                                     Nay-    DesConnor

            No Fix Needed-             Deceiver_0                EadTaes             Azrak_Navarion
                                              Major  Stress             Top vasari          Soasertsus
                                              ReadyMan                 lifekatana
         SivCorp
                                              
Kitkun                      eoncommander       


CARRIERS:

Extensively nerfed in the previous 2 patches, carriers have lost their place as a hard counter to long ranged frigates, as flak frigates can now destroy fighters much faster than they are built, and long ranged frigates can now hunt the carriers themselves down.


            Buff Carriers-

                        Decrease build penalty?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0                Ascension            crashmatusow
                                               Pirate - Jack              mbaron888          Volt_cruelerz
                                               lbgsloan                    Gugabalog           Top vasari
                                               Soasertsus                Howdidudothat      JuleTron
                                               N3rull                        lifekatana           
Derek06
                                              
Cykur                       Ovi_187                Sobric
                                               Warlord Mike             SivCorp                Kitkun
                                              
eoncommander 

                                    Nay-     DesConnor                Raging Amish       Extremor

                       
Increase fighter HP?:

                                    Yay-    Ascension                  Mindseye              Azrak_Navarion
                                              Gugabalog                 Howdidudothat     
Derek06
                                              Extremor

                     
               Nay-    Pirate - Jack             mbaron888             Volt_cruelerz
                                              Soasertsus                DesConnor             lifekatana
                                             
Raging Amish            Ovi_187                 Sobric
                                              Warlord Mike            SivCorp                  Kitkun 

           
             Reduce movement penalty?:

                                    Yay-     Tohron                    Soasertsus              Raging Amish
                                               mbaron888              Gugabalog              Howdidudothat
                                               JuleTron                  ReadyMan               DesConnor
                                              
Derek06                  Sobric                     SivCorp
                                               Extremor            

                                    Nay-     Pirate - Jack            crashmatusow         lifekatana
                                               
Cykur                     Deceiver_0             Ovi_187
                                              
Kitkun 

         
   Nerf Counters-

                        Reduce Flak rate of fire?:

                                   Yay-         EadTaes                Warlord Mike        eoncommander

                  
                 Nay-         Mindseye               Gugabalog           Volt_cruelerz
                                                  Soasertsus             Howdidudothat     DesConnor
                                                  lifekatana              
Raging Amish      Ovi_187
                                                 
Sobric                    Kitkun                  Extremor


            No Fix Needed-                 Major  Stress         -Ue_carbon            Pbhead

SCOUTS:

With the recent nerf to carriers, scouts have come to the forefront as a decent anti-lrf ship, and with their new found popularity some changes have been suggested.


            Nerf Scouts-

                        Reduce damage buff against light armor?:

                                    Yay-      Volt_cruelerz            Ovi_187

                          
          Nay-      Deceiver_0               Ascension             Soasertsus
                                                Gugabalog                Howdidudothat     
Derek06
                                               
Raging Amish           Sobric                   Warlord Mike 
                                               
Kitkun                     Extremor

                        Increase scout supply requirement?:

                                    Yay-

                                    Nay-      Ascension                Pirate - Jack         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog               TheRezonator       Soasertsus
                                                 Howdidudothat        
Derek06              Raging Amish
                                                
Ovi_187                  Sobric                  Warlord Mike 
                                               
Kitkun                      Extremor
 

                        Increase resource cost?:

                                    Yay-

                                    Nay-      Ascension               Pirate - Jack           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog              TheRezonator         Soasertsus
                                                 Howdidudothat       
Derek06                 Raging Amish 
                                                
Ovi_187                 Sobric                     Warlord Mike 
                                               
Kitkun                     Extremor
                                
      
      Buff Vasari Scouts-

                        Increase Hp/Shields?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0              Raging Amish         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Ascension               Pirate - Jack             Soasertsus
                                                Mindseye                TheRezonator           Howdidudothat
                                               
Derek06                 Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                               
SivCorp                  Kitkun                      Dargoon999
                                                Extremor

                   
                  Nay-   Gugabalog               Ovi_187

                 
       Increase damage?:

                                    Yay-      Ascension              Raging Amish           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog             TheRezonator           Soasertsus
                                                Howdidudothat       
Derek06                  Cykur(+.5dps)
                                                Ovi_187                 Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                               
SivCorp                  Kitkun                      Dargoon999
                                               
                                    Nay-      Extremor


            No Fix Needed-              EadTaes                 mbaron888            JuleTron
                                               Major  Stress          -Ue_carbon              ReadyMan
                                               DesConnor              lifekatana             
Pbhead
                                              
eoncommander

ILLUMINATORS:

The relative strength of illuminators has been under debate for some time, and many fixes have been proposed, here are a few, let me know if you’ve got others. I've done my own research, and have posted my findings.


            Nerf Illuminators-

                        Increase resource cost?:
 
                                    Yay-      Ascension               Volt_cruelerz           Ovi_187
                                                Pirate - Jack           EadTaes                 Top vasari
                                                lbgsloan                 Gugabalog              Azrak_Navarion
                                                Soasertsus              Howdidudothat       
Derek06
                                                Extremor

                         
            Nay-     Major  Stress          -Ue_carbon              lifekatana
                                               
Raging Amish         Sobric                     Warlord Mike
                                                
Kitkun                  eoncommander
                                               

         
               Adjust damage division between beams?:

                                    Yay-    Deceiver_0(33%)    mbaron888               -Ue_carbon
                                              Gugabalog             DesConnor                N3rull
                                               Ascension            
Derek06                   Raging Amish(33%)
                                               Ovi_187               Sobric                       Warlord Mike
                                              
eoncommander 

                                    Nay-    Pirate - Jack          Major  Stress             Soasertsus
                                              Howdidudothat       lifekatana                 
Kitkun
                                             
Extremor            

                        Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?:

                                   Yay-      Pirate - Jack (hp only)        EadTaes          TheRezonator
                                               Ascension              Gugabalog                  -Ue_carbon
                                               Soasertsus             Howdidudothat            DesConnor
                                               -aceca-                 
Derek06                      Cykur
                                               Raging Amish(Hp&Armor)  Ovi_187            Sobric 
                                              
Warlord Mike           SivCorp                     Kitkun
                                              
Extremor(450/500)  eoncommander

                        
           Nay-      Major  Stress        Volt_cruelerz                Soasertsus
                                               lifekatana           


                        Increase supply requirement?:

                                  Yay-        DesConnor            Derek06               Kitkun 

                
                  Nay-        Pirate - Jack          Major  Stress         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog             Soasertsus            Howdidudothat
                                                lifekatana             
Raging Amish        Ovi_187   
                                               
Sobric                    Warlord Mike         Extremor 
                                               
eoncommander        
 
                        Decrease Damage?:
 
                                  Yay-        EadTaes                Ascension               Soasertsus
                                                Major  Stress        Gugabalog                ReadyMan
                                                DesConnor(Caps only)  N3rull                lifekatana
                                               
Ovi_187                Extremor          

                      
            Nay-        Volt_cruelerz        -Ue_carbon            Howdidudothat
                                               
Derek06              Raging Amish         Sobric
                                               
Warlord Mike        Kitkun                    eoncommander

                             
                  

            No Fix Needed-             mbaron888           Mindseye               dresda
                                             
Pbhead

More to come-

1,280,828 views 566 replies
Reply #276 Top

Also, it is my personal request for us all to drop cap ship abilities in this thread. This is an bottomless can of worms, each the size of manhattan.

Gotta agree; we're all in agreement of the standings of the capital ships, but there's little to no agreement about what to do about them.  This is worth its own thread.

Reply #277 Top

@Howididudothat

Ah sorry, thought i put those in there but i maybe i got distracted while putting yours up. All fixed now.

@n3rull

I was considering making a topic on vasari caps, as they do indeed need some help. I'd say 99.9% of vasari players online use the egg to start with. Then on rare rare occasions I'll see a SKirantra, and even rarer occasions a Vulkoras. Unless the player is new to online play, I don't ever see a kortul (and if i do, its dead within 10 minutes). And the Marauder? well, I'll jsut say most Vasari will opt for bombers against mb rather than a marauder. I've used the marauder successfully before (not as a starting cap) but the one thing I DO find its great at is getting a fleet deep into enemy territory to take down superweapons. Being able to make your ships phase disruption immune is highly underrated. Perhaps I'll make another thread about cap ship abilities.

@Raging Amish

I agree with you about MB. The recent nerf has also allowed Advent and Vasari (sorry tec your ships are screwed) ships to get out of the AOE before theyre destroyed. I recall a scenario where I MB'd an illum fleet twice, and both times my opponent was able to save the majority of his fleet, Jump out, heal up and come back. Vasari just need some more options.

Reply #278 Top

Capital ship abilities definitely need to be another thread.  Heck, just look at the Marza thread; even on-topic discussion of one ability spawned pages and pages of heated responses.

I tend to agree with Amish that every faction has some absolutely wicked abilities, but the fact remains that if I were to categorize missile barrage, I'd put it right beside "meteor control" and "safety override protocol", the two most powerful starbase abilities in the game.  The reason is that they're all uncapped area of effect abilities that, if given the opportunity, can wipe out entire fleets on their own.  Since the nerf of malice, nothing else can do that.  I will agree, however, that the Progenitor and Evacuator also need attention for their own issues.

Reply #279 Top

If MB is so out of line with every other ability in the game then why is it that no-one wants it changed? Its either balanced or not. Imo, it needs to be comparable to abilities on other cap ships. Making it shoot in a cone andor have a target cap is needed. This change would require equal damage but shorter duration.

 

Interesting observation:

People want almost every Vasari unit to receive a buff. Some say boost the Vasari scout, everyone says boost the skirmisher (even more then the other factions), some say boost the assailant, everyone says boost the carrier, some say boost the subverter, everyone says boost the overseer, everyone says boost the enforcer, some say boost their bombers, some say boost their SB and everyone says boost their cap ships.

Isn't something wrong when almost every unit of a particular faction (Vasari) is requested to receive a boost? I'm not saying that all these units really do need a boost but  things look pretty bad for Vasari. Its amazing that they are competitive at all. Must be the Phase Missiles.

Vasari ships have oddly low DPS and I can't understand why. Imo the Egg is fine except fot its colonise bonus. This should be changed to give 1/2/3 extra constructors. Maybe this is too good, I don't know, but something needs to be done.

Reply #280 Top

It's the neutrals. On a map with enough Neutrals, the Vasari rock. Without them....they crash and burn. It's a gamble when you choose Vasari. If there are gonna be plenty of neutrals then by all means, but if there aren't going to be neutrals, they're in a bit of a pickle.

If the neutrals could be balanced somehow....(put an allegiance on them like with planets damn't), the Vasari could probably be fixed, but overall.....the Assailants is weak, the Skirmisher is weak, the enforcer is weak, the carrier cap is weak, the battleship is bugged.

Really, outside of phase missiles (Good at taking out 1 target at a time: I.E. Capital ships), neutrals, and the egg, I'm not sure what else the Vasari got.

Reply #281 Top

Really, outside of phase missiles (Good at taking out 1 target at a time: I.E. Capital ships), neutrals, and the egg, I'm not sure what else the Vasari got.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the neutrals, but that is exactly my point. Almost everything that the Vasari has is weak. Something must be done!

As for the the new topis questions: yay, nay, unsure.

Reply #282 Top

Siege Frigates:  Decrease Supply Cost?: Yay (I'd like to see it at 8)

 

Reply #283 Top

Vasari ships have oddly low DPS and I can't understand why. Imo the Egg is fine except fot its colonise bonus. This should be changed to give 1/2/3 extra constructors
With all due respect, this is be a f...kin brilliant idea! Make the extra constructors scuttle after 2 minutes so they can put in two turrets, an extractor or something.
Great.

+1 Loading…
Reply #284 Top

Overall the Vasari are weak. I agree on this point. What makes or breaks a vasari's game is whether he can get to neutrals. Neutrals are their life. With that extra cash, they can buy more ships to compensate for the lesser effectiveness of their ships. Without neutrals, it's farewell Vasari. They need those neutrals to spur their early game econ for fleet and later to buy buildings to help an eco that's too neutral reliant.

Reply #285 Top

Oh, and I forgot a fix I'd like. Make lrf's slower than carriers. Right now LRFs have a speed of 500, carriers 450. That's just wrong.

Reply #286 Top

I'd like to throw in here a tweak to the Vasari Marauder's abilities, which might completely change the way that that ship works.

Essentially I'd like to see the 'Q' slot ability changed from targetting another ship, to only targetting itself, draining anti-matter slowly, but make the ship completely invisible. Basically a cloak. From reading the Marauder's description when first playing this game, I assumed that it was in some way a "stealth ship", and feel that the rest of its abilities reflect behind-enemy-phase-lines action. The ability should allow the Marauder to slip through systems undetected (except, perhaps, by scouts?), but the more systems travelled through the more likely you'll have no anti-matter left in a bad spot.

The LF could also be linked to this ship somehow, perhaps allowing for upgraded LFs to travel cloaked with a Marauder a short distance (obviously requiring a complete change in the current research upgrade), also allowing a Marauder & LFs to slip behind fleets on a tactical level (to take out support ships perhaps....).

Sorry if this the wrong thread for such a drastic change, but I feel it will add a completely new depth to the Vasari that is currently lacking.

Cheers,

Sobric

Reply #287 Top

Quoting Raging, reply 10
Oh, and I forgot a fix I'd like. Make lrf's slower than carriers. Right now LRFs have a speed of 500, carriers 450. That's just wrong.

why? carriers are bigger, bulkier ships. why would a cruisers be faster than a frigate?

Reply #288 Top

Carriers are the counter to lrfs. Or at least they're supposed to be. Right now, you can make 1 flak per squadron of enemy strikecraft ( or whatever ratio fits ur fancy), and then just fill the rest of ur ship slots with lrf's. The lrf's don't have to worry about fighters, and can just maul the carriers because now.....they can catch them. Before they couldn't. To me, it's wrong when the ship that carriers are SUPPOSED to counter can just maul carriers to bits

Order of speed should be

fighters>scouts>light frigs&Flak>carriers>lrfs

HC's fit in just above light frigs and just below scouts. I don't include them in that chain because they're the uber ship always put to exception

Reply #289 Top

Light Frigate- Decrease LRF damage bonus to medium armor?
- nay.

In my belief, LRFs should kill LFs badly, but shouldn't do any awesome damage to what they're not meant to counter. They shouldn't deal such good damage to carriers (nerf vs. heavy by 15-25%).
They shouldn't deal such good damage to caps (nerf vs. cap armor by 15-25%).
They should deal slightly less to HCs (nerf vs. very heavy by 10-15%)
At the same time, LFs should deal slightly more damage across the board (except vs light armor) to be more battle viable while still having a strong counter. While we're at LRFs, LFs should get a buff against HCs, so that they are neither a counter nor countered by them (buff antiheavy damage type vs very heavy armor by 15-20%). LFs should still be beaten by HCs, but not badly.

I think that could fix LRFs.
PS. Fixing carriers is yet another issue.

Reply #290 Top

If the neutrals could be balanced somehow....(put an allegiance on them like with planets damn't)

I totally agree; Vasari need to be balanced for a greater variety of maps.  Feels like they're gimped without neutrals.  On the other hand, Advent have a significant disadvantage when it comes to neutrals (no real refinery).  We definitely need something here so that maps don't heavily favour one faction or another.

Really, outside of phase missiles (Good at taking out 1 target at a time: I.E. Capital ships), neutrals, and the egg, I'm not sure what else the Vasari got.

Their econ isn't that bad.  They get a bad reputation for 4-lab level trade, but if it wasn't for this I'd probably say they have the strongest civic tech tree overall.  The ability to observe any phase jumps, as well as phase stabilizers are a huge advantage.  They also have much better offensive starbasing capacity.  I've been playing around with Vasari offensive starbasing recently, and it's GREAT.

Reply #291 Top

In my belief, LRFs should kill LFs badly, but shouldn't do any awesome damage to what they're not meant to counter. They shouldn't deal such good damage to carriers (nerf vs. heavy by 15-25%).
They shouldn't deal such good damage to caps (nerf vs. cap armor by 15-25%).
They should deal slightly less to HCs (nerf vs. very heavy by 10-15%)
At the same time, LFs should deal slightly more damage across the board (except vs light armor) to be more battle viable while still having a strong counter. While we're at LRFs, LFs should get a buff against HCs, so that they are neither a counter nor countered by them (buff antiheavy damage type vs very heavy armor by 15-20%). LFs should still be beaten by HCs, but not badly.

One should note the bonuses are in intervals of 25%. No reason they couldnt be in 10s or 5s I suppose, but the devs may have done 25 for simplicity, or there may be another reason. Who knows.

Reply #292 Top

Vasari econ isnt horrible.They get both crys and metal upgrades for price of 1.They get discounted ships and extra ship slots.Their trade is one level up than advent.They are a bit dependant on neutrals.One fix off top of my head is to move trade to tier 3.To balance it out tho all scouts should be able to capture neutrals so I dunno.Would make neutrals more interesting if all factions could battle it out with scouts.

Reply #293 Top

Would make neutrals more interesting if all factions could battle it out with scouts.

More interesting?, possibly, except that vasari has the weakest scout. Honestly though when there are 2 Vasari battling over neutrals it isn't terribly interesting, as most of the time the player with less scouts in a grav well will fly off to another neutral extractor location until a time he can overpower his opponent (usually with by having more scouts).

Then there's the whole balance issue of taking away one of the few advantages Vasari have.

Reply #294 Top

Well I did say move their trade to tier 3 like advent and they still get cheaper unit upgrades,more fleet point,and metal and crys for one price so they would be balanced I think.

It be more interesting because you would have to pay more attention and defende neutrals better.More fleet into scouts defending and attacking neutrals.I dunno if its a good idea its just one I had for evening the econs and neutrals.I for one dont like vas trade being tier 4.Yeah scouts would prolly need to be more balanced if this happened so everyone had a fair chance at neutrals.

Reply #295 Top

With all due respect, this is be a f...kin brilliant idea! Make the extra constructors scuttle after 2 minutes so they can put in two turrets, an extractor or something.
Great.

Thanks for the support. If the extra constuctors auto-scuttle that would prevent the ability from being OP. As for the Akkan its colonise bonus should be 1/2/4 free extractors.

As for the Vasari yes they do get a decent eco and strong civic tree, but just about every unit they get is weak.

The Maruader is useful, but only rarely is it needed. Changing it would be a good idea. Subversion should be more on par with Embargo. Its DPS needs a boost as well to make it on the same level as other support caps.

Reply #296 Top

Subversion isn't the problem imo. They buffed it a long time ago. Starts off ok. Ends up being brutal if you ever get it to level 3. One of the things people don't realize about subversion is how long it lasts (a damn long time).

I dunno how you should be asking from the support class. Between the Rapture (I think that's the advent support cap), Marauder, and Dunov, the abilities they bring are all great, but they're not direct.....they're indirect support.

The marauder provides a counter to MB, the abilitiy to BYPASS phase jump inhibitors & outrun your enemy to get a jump start at attacking stuff behind enemy lines, and also gives like a 5 minute delay to planets in ship production and construction THAT CAN STACK. You have no idea how much you'll frustrate someone if his planet is building with a 300% red multiplier (he constructs at roughly 1/4 his normal rate). Great for TEC players abusing repair bays.

Still, the cap doesn't stand alone. Needs fleet to support it. Overall, great ship though.

Reply #297 Top

Hmm....something that I kinda would like is...and get this...it's not combat related: On the Quit Gave/Surrender Screen, get rid of quit game. Make it surrender only if you want to leave early. I realize there are disconnects, and there are minidumps...but if there was a way to insure that when someone is intentionally leaving, they have to surrender, it'd be appreciated.

Probably would be an effort in vain though. There are other ways to "manually" disconnect urself from sins and avoid the losses. Damn't. So the consoles do have an advantage!

Reply #298 Top

The problem with surrenders is that in team games that leaves you with a stationary drone of an ally rather than an AI... although I'm not quite sure which is worse.  In any case, we do need better mechanisms to handle leavers.

 

Besides, everyone goes by your wins to games played ratio, not win to losses.  I personally do surrender if I'm the last person on my team.

Reply #299 Top

Quoting Raging, reply 22
Hmm....something that I kinda would like is...and get this...it's not combat related: On the Quit Gave/Surrender Screen, get rid of quit game. Make it surrender only if you want to leave early. I realize there are disconnects, and there are minidumps...but if there was a way to insure that when someone is intentionally leaving, they have to surrender, it'd be appreciated.

Probably would be an effort in vain though. There are other ways to "manually" disconnect urself from sins and avoid the losses. Damn't. So the consoles do have an advantage!

This is a good idea, and may actually help the purposes of stats. As the gap between wins+losses/games played would be a better indicator of the kind of player a person is. People choosing the "quit" button happens much much more often then people disconnecting, so (theoretically) someone with a huge gap between games played and wins+losses would obviously either have a really, really unreliable connection or is manually pulling the plug to avoid a loss, both of which are types of players many wouldn't want to play with (at least in team vs team games). Between smurfs, disconnects and the "quit" button, stats have little to no meaning.

Also players being disconnected or manually pulling the plug will be replaced by computers, while players simply admitting defeat will not, allowing the player who had defeated them to move on and not have to waste time making sure an Ai doesn't continue to bother them. We'll just have to make sure people know that losing 1 battle doesnt necessarily mean you've lost the game and discourage premature surrendering.

Reply #300 Top

Subversion isn't the problem imo. They buffed it a long time ago. Starts off ok. Ends up being brutal if you ever get it to level 3. One of the things people don't realize about subversion is how long it lasts (a damn long time).

I dunno how you should be asking from the support class. Between the Rapture (I think that's the advent support cap), Marauder, and Dunov, the abilities they bring are all great, but they're not direct.....they're indirect support.

The marauder provides a counter to MB, the abilitiy to BYPASS phase jump inhibitors & outrun your enemy to get a jump start at attacking stuff behind enemy lines, and also gives like a 5 minute delay to planets in ship production and construction THAT CAN STACK. You have no idea how much you'll frustrate someone if his planet is building with a 300% red multiplier (he constructs at roughly 1/4 his normal rate). Great for TEC players abusing repair bays.

Still, the cap doesn't stand alone. Needs fleet to support it. Overall, great ship though.

Since we're down to discussing cap ships again, I just have to respond here.

In my opinion, it is a very important difference between an ability A that is powerful and sometimes useful and ability B that is awesome but useful only once every fifteenth game.

Dunov:
1] Shield restore. Powerful support ability that you will find a use for in any game you play as long as there is a second ship next to the Dunov.
2] EMP charge. Works against all cap ships, takes out antimatter, ceases channeling, disables abilities, is AOE, destroys shields. A hundred uses for it in any game you play, as long as the enemy uses any abilities at all ( = always).
3] Magnetize. Fouls up the enemy's usage of abilities and wipes his strikecraft. Awesome. Always.
4] Flux Field. Awesome for any cap that wants to spam something. Akkan would want to spam ion bolts on enemy caps. Marza would like to spam rad bombs. Kol would like to spam everything. Always useful, even if being a support ability.

Rapture:
1] Vertigo. Useful in any battle.
2] Vengeance. Useful in any losing battle.
3] Concentration. Useful in any winning battle (lol?).
4] Domination. roflmao.

Antorak:
1] Phase out hull. Useful when you want to disable an enemy ship's channeling... and? Yes, there is a dozen more uses for it, but SERIOUSLY, how often does that crap happen? Besides, it is a two edged sword. Yes it is spammable, but the enemy is immune. So are your ships. Immune, but useless. The tactical potential is incredible. Usefulness is almost nil.
2] Distort Gravity. Makes ships move faster. And? Like, I mean, wow, holy moly. My ships fly faster, yay. Ignore pji's yay.
Now seriously, thanks to the pathfinding issues that makes ships change their jump-out point when they get dist. gravity, the ships start maneuvering more than they should and the effect is almost nullified cause dist. gravity does NOT increase ship turning speed. Besides, fleets always fly as fast at the slowest ship, meaning the Marauder, which doesn't become a real hot rod at all.
3] Subversion. yaaaa. Awesome.
Slows construction? Great. He won't build turrets. Question - why would you NOT kill his constructors the moment you see him starting any construction?
Slows ship production? Great. You really believe he does not have factories in nearby gravwells? That's the usual scenario anyway - a river of ships jumping out from his nearby planets until either you wipe everything except the ships that just entered or he wiped you like that.
Gives 5 minutes of vision? Awesome! ... or is it?
4] Phase Stabilizer. Yay! Needs you to have phase stabilizers researched yourself, built and fleets ready to get jumped. Very, very, VERY situational.

So, all in all, I do NOT believe one support cap is equal to another. 
Some are useful in any game.
The other is a gadget.

----------
edit. all the above was typed in a hurry so not all tiniest aspects of the mentioned abilities are addressed, but the point is made. A dunov or a rapture both can do something useful in any battle and we all know that battles are where the game is decided (well, you do have to lose your fleet before you lose the game, unless you're sabotaging yourself, did something very silly or are totally drunk x_x ).
Antorak can do a few things that might never have a chance to meet the situations they're made to counter, cause what they're made to counter hardly ever happens.

And btw.

I personally do surrender if I'm the last person on my team.
Let's play 1v1 lol.

Sorry for offtopic ^^'