Uranium - 235 Uranium - 235

TEC capital ship abilities are a pathetic *@#ing joke.

▼

TEC capital ship abilities are a pathetic *@#ing joke.

from Sins Forums
-- Kol

Gauss - Sounds good, until you realize it's blocked by Shield Mitigation. In additon, the Kol has to ever-so-slowly turn to face the attacker to use it. One shot from the main laser array will send shield mitigation to at least 40-50%, the Gauss will almost never do more than half damage, meaning ONLY 400 at level 3. In addition, the antimatter cost of this ability is through the roof for how worthless it is. If you leave it on autocast, the Kol will drain its antimatter trying (and failing) to destroy just one ship.

Flak - This is without a doubt the most pathetic ability I've ever seen. If it were replaced with a button that would self-destruct the ship, I'd probably use it more. Seriously, I've probably destroyed one or two fighters with this (that were speedily replaced). I don't even purchase it any more, or even bother to turn it on auto activate. All it'll do is waste antimatter trying to destroy one fighter, and I'm pretty sure at level 3, it can't even destroy a fighter from 100% health.

Antimatter Shield - Wow, a semi-decent ability. The fact that it consumes more and more antimatter at higher levels is pretty sad though - I thought the point of higher levels was to make the ability better.

Finest Hour - A pretty good ability, as far as level 6's go, I suppose. There's better. It'd be nice if the Kol's perimeter guns did a bit more damage to make this more useful. I can't complain about it, except for the fact that it's one of only two non-shit abilities of the Kol.

-- Sova

Missile Batteries - They're a nice boon to an otherwise defenseless carrier. A decent choice.

Embargo - An ability that becomes more and more useless as the game goes on. Early game it can cripple the enemy and provide a huge boon to your own economy. Late-game it really doesnt' affect the enemy much (as they have many planets, losing one isn't too bad) and you won't notice much income (you can't see how MUCH you're bringing in, which is disappointing at any rate)

Heavy Strike Craft - Every race has something that makes their strikecraft better, and I'm pretty sure that the TEC have the worst strike craft by design. The shit part is that their 'improvement' is a capital ship ability, whereas the Advent are done by research (unsure about the Vasari), meaning ONLY Sova strikecraft get what is effectively a mild improvement. The end result is that it's a DECENT ability as far as the Sova's upgrades, it's really the ONLY ability that helps it do its job better, but in the big picture it's pretty stupid.

Heavy Manufacturing - Really? A level 6 ability that's designed around what? Helping my carrier just in case I'm a retard and got the swarms of strikecraft killed? Are you serious? Oh, my bad, it improves my planets somewhat too - give me a break. One of the most ridiculous level 6 abilities.

-- Akkan

Colonize - Whatever. Every faction has one of these.

Ion Bolt - Oh here we go. The second worst ability in the game, right in front of Flak. Sounds great doesn't it? Paralyze an enemy ship and get some real damage on it - oh what's that? At Level 3, it ONLY LASTS 7 SECONDS? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Hahhahahahahahh! The only reason it's better than the Flak ability is because it can disable a phase jump. Aside from that, this is a complete joke. For comparison, the Advent's "Reverie" ability does the exact same thing, consumes less antimatter, and lasts 4x longer.

Targetting Uplink - It sounds like a good passive ability, until you realize that the base accuracy of all ships is pretty damn high to begin with, and the bonus is pretty low. I've never noticed an improvement whatsoever with this.

Armistice - I've never found a good use for this except running away. This is like Heavy Manufacturing - an ability designed not to help the ship do its job, but to help you in case you're a schmuck and you're about to die. I'd rather NOT have abilities based around RETREATING, thank you. The only other purpose this could have is a temporary delay to bring in reinforcements, but if you're playing on a big map, chancese are this will be a minor boon, at best.

-- Dunov

Shield Restore - Wow, the first ability so far that is actually rather good. The Dunov itself is the only TEC capital ship worth a flying fuck. You can't diss Shield Restore, especially if there's two Dunov's.

EMP Charge - A 'decent' ability. It really doesn't do that much even at level 3, however. It's only really useful for burning Antimatter. The shield portion is pretty damn weak.

Magnetize - Here's the irony of the TEC. Their main battleship has the most pathetic, shit ability in the entire game for destroying fighters, but this big, lumbering, nearly defenseless freighter is armed with the best anti-strikecraft weapon in the game. It not only does damage to enemy ships AND instantly destroy strikecraft, but you can target it at a DISTANCE (so it doesn't only ever hit that ONE fighter cruising past like Flak does), and it lasts quite a while.

Flux Field - Again, a great, solid ability. The Dunov has some of the greatest abilities, but it's a shame that they're all support abilities for OTHER ships, not itself, so even though you have Dunov's, you still have to rely on the other shit capitals.

-- Marza

Radiation Bomb - This is a first for the TEC, a capital ship with abilities that augment what its supposed to do, and do so well. Radiation Bomb isn't the greatest, at any rate, but it's a start for them. The DOT isn't mitigated, but I'm pretty sure the explosion is, so it's really not that lethal. It does last quite a while, but the blast is EXTREMELY small.

Raze Planet - An ability that sounds great until you realize that it's pretty worthless. Populations already die pretty fast, to a barrage, and even at level 3, taking a couple hundred HP off of a 5000 HP target is a sad joke. The cooldown is long, it's pretty much in-line with the other 90% of the TEC abilities, in that you could never use it and you'd never miss it.

Incendiary Rounds - Oh snap. No complaints here. Passive ability that adds a little more unmitigated damage is always nice. Why the TEC didn't think to equip their BATTLESHIP with something that doesn't totally suck is beyond me.

Missile Barrage - *sigh* What exactly is 150 MITIGATED damage going to do? To ANYTHING? It looks pretty, that's about it. I'm pretty sure I'll save the 150 antimatter (or however much it costs) and use Radiation Bomb instead, since it does damn-near the EXACT SAME THING.

--


Seriously, whoever designed these abilities needs to be shot out of a cannon into a wall.

Ion Bolt and Flak are without a doubt the two biggest jokes in line here - Ion Bolt especially since Reverie can be chain-cast almost indefinitely and wipe out a capital one-on-one, but Ion Bolt will just make your enemy laugh at what a worthless douchebag you are.
94,346 views 91 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top
This post is so completely wrong.

Raze planet is not bad at all. Some of my friends go so far as to say it's one of the top skills in the game (along with Malice, shield regen, AM burn, etc.) It's 2,4,6 bursts of 80 damage. Considering an asteroid only has 1000 hp, it's pretty useful.

Gauss is incredibly good only if you micro it. You have to gauss targets at 15% mitigation, THEN focus fire it (800 damage for 75 mana? Count me in). Leaving it on autocast is just lazy. Further, Kol at 6 is a monster. No other cap ship comes close to its raw dps or survivability. I've taken out huge groups of kodiacs, crusaders, enforcers, etc, suffering no damage at all. It's a beast. It also kills other cap ships in a few seconds with nonstop gauss.

Sova's embargo is incredible; easily the best early skill in the game. The akkan is the most overrated cap anywhere. It's decent, but nowhere near as good as the other colonizing caps. For instance, the space whale has pretty mediocre skills, but at 6 has one of the strongest ultimates. The mothership is the backbone of the Advent fleet, for obvious reasons.

On the whole, you have to look at Tec caps as solo fighters. They don't really synergize with each other like the Advent caps, but neither do Vasari. The Kol and Mazra are two of the strongest solo caps for their roles, and the Sova is the strongest cap in close fixed spawn maps bar none.

Your post simply shows your ignorance of the finer details of the game.
Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top
This post is so completely wrong.Raze planet is not bad at all. Some of my friends go so far as to say it's one of the top skills in the game (along with Malice, shield regen, AM burn, etc.) It's 2,4,6 bursts of 80 damage. Considering an asteroid only has 1000 hp, it's pretty useful.Gauss is incredibly good only if you micro it. You have to gauss targets at 15% mitigation, THEN focus fire it (800 damage for 75 mana? Count me in). Leaving it on autocast is just lazy. Further, Kol at 6 is a monster. No other cap ship comes close to its raw dps or survivability. I've taken out huge groups of kodiacs, crusaders, enforcers, etc, suffering no damage at all. It's a beast. It also kills other cap ships in a few seconds with nonstop gauss.Sova's embargo is incredible; easily the best early skill in the game. The akkan is the most overrated cap anywhere. It's decent, but nowhere near as good as the other colonizing caps. For instance, the space whale has pretty mediocre skills, but at 6 has one of the strongest ultimates. The mothership is the backbone of the Advent fleet, for obvious reasons.On the whole, you have to look at Tec caps as solo fighters. They don't really synergize with each other like the Advent caps, but neither do Vasari. The Kol and Mazra are two of the strongest solo caps for their roles, and the Sova is the strongest cap in close fixed spawn maps bar none.Your post simply shows your ignorance of the finer details of the game.


Oh snap.
Star Control: Origins
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top
"90% of the game is still fleet combat, moron."And having lots of money lets you build really big fleets.


And yet at the end of the day, your fleet is only going to be just as big as the next guys, execpt yours costs more because it's 90% deduction.
Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top
Gauss is incredibly good only if you micro it. You have to gauss targets at 15% mitigation, THEN focus fire it (800 damage for 75 mana? Count me in). Leaving it on autocast is just lazy. Further, Kol at 6 is a monster. No other cap ship comes close to its raw dps or survivability. I've taken out huge groups of kodiacs, crusaders, enforcers, etc, suffering no damage at all. It's a beast. It also kills other cap ships in a few seconds with nonstop gauss.


Amen. A voice of reason.
Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top
Excerpt from post #38, by Mettra :


To make a laser (we'll use this as an easy example) diverge from its path significantly enough that it would actually veer off and miss a target (we'll say veer off 60 degrees or so) would require an ENORMOUS bending of space.

Even the gravitational field of our sun only bends light by (damned if I can remember this correctly) only 1/30th of a single degree. So you'd need a gravitational field or 'bending' of 1800 suns. Even with a (literally?) godlike amount of energy, this would be problematic.



To confirm what you stated, physicist Mettra, I quote PhD in Physics Lawrence Krauss :


« Even so, the energy requirements to do any of the remarkable playing around with spacetime described here [,concerning a "coherent gravitational field" that would protect a warship, would be extremely considerable...]

Consider the mass of the Sun, which is about a million times the mass of the Earth. The gravitational field at the surface of the Sun is sufficient to bend light by less than 1/1000 of a degree. Imagine the extreme gravitational fields that would have to be generated near a starship to deflect an oncoming phaser beam by 90 [degrees] ! »


Lawrence M. Krauss, The Physics of Star Trek, NY : BasicBooks, 1995, p. 59.


(You were wondering if it was 1/30th, and Krauss answers you : 1/1000th !)
Reply #56 from Stardock Forums Top
Interesting book there, seemingly. I might have to go to the library soon.

Incidentally, I think the discrepancy between my very rough 'guessticalculation' and his is that he specifically mentions the surface of the sun (that is, a certain [large] distance away from the center of gravity) whereas I was simply talking about all the gravitational field strength concentrated at a very small volume (so that it can be plopped in front of a ship) :).
Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top
Mettra (#56) :

Interesting book there, seemingly. I might have to go to the library soon.



Physicist Krauss published a sequel, two years later :


Lawrence M. Krauss, Beyond Star Trek : Physics from Alien Invasions to the End of Time, NY : BasicBooks, 1997.


I also can recommend what another physicist wrote :


Jeanne Cavelos, The Science of Star Wars [1999], 2nd exp. ed., NY : St. Martin's Griffin, 2000.

Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top

For those of you interested in how deadly coilguns/mass drivers would be in actual space combat, check out www.adastragames.com.Specifically, Attack Vector.Nasty is…an understatement.

Whoot, I’m not the only Attack Vector player on Earth! I feel so relieved … since I actually pre-ordered it before release and lovingly drooled over it in all the time since … I just can’t find anyone else nearby save at the very rare conventions that enjoys playing hyper-grognardy space combat simulators.

Now, that would be a nice hobby-project for someone at Ironclad to build during their 10% time: An Attack Vector-based single-well combat simulator peopled by versions of the Sins ships. Insert grognardy wankage here. :)


Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top
Originally Posted By HuntingX
Raze planet is not bad at all. Some of my friends go so far as to say it's one of the top skills in the game (along with Malice, shield regen, AM burn, etc.) It's 2,4,6 bursts of 80 damage. Considering an asteroid only has 1000 hp, it's pretty useful.
A planet has at least 1,500. Considering how long it actually takes to apply the damage, especially taking in the fact that it's doubtful that someone will leave their planet that vulnerable, it's not quite so useful.

Gauss is incredibly good only if you micro it. You have to gauss targets at 15% mitigation, THEN focus fire it (800 damage for 75 mana? Count me in).
That's the problem; hitting them at low shield mitigation. The ship's guns typically put it at a high mitigation before it can fire off the railgun, dropping its usefulness by quite a bit. While it's grand when coupled with Finest Hour, it's not so grand without a high refire rate that it doesn't really get without FH unless it's near a star.

Further, Kol at 6 is a monster.
No argument here. I had a Kol take out four militia Kodiaks by itself and still survive to kill off the supporting frigates at around level 5. Took quite a beating, but never went below 1,000 HP.

Sova's embargo is incredible; easily the best early skill in the game.
An ability shouldn't lose its value as the game progresses.

On the whole, you have to look at Tec caps as solo fighters. They don't really synergize with each other like the Advent caps, but neither do Vasari.
Dunov Battlecruisers are probably the most powerful capitals I've ever used. If I didn't have one, I'd have lost far more capitals than I have in my short career.
Reply #60 from Stardock Forums Top
A planet has at least 1,500. Considering how long it actually takes to apply the damage, especially taking in the fact that it's doubtful that someone will leave their planet that vulnerable, it's not quite so useful. (1)

That's the problem; hitting them at low shield mitigation. The ship's guns typically put it at a high mitigation before it can fire off the railgun, dropping its usefulness by quite a bit. While it's grand when coupled with Finest Hour, it's not so grand without a high refire rate that it doesn't really get without FH unless it's near a star. (2)

An ability shouldn't lose its value as the game progresses. (3)


(1) I think you're making the slight error of not considering other planet-killing options. When compared with ANY planet-killing options in the game, this ability is the best. You can force someone to leave their planet vulnerable in many ways, one of which is destroying their fleet, which Marza's are good at.

(2) He specifically said that this ability should be microed. So it isn't a problem. If you're 1 on one with a ship and can't help triggering the mitigation, it's not a big deal anyway. Stating that you can't spam it is not an argument against it, it's better than any other options you have.

(3) Every ability in the entire game loses its value as the game progresses. If you add up the 'value' of everything you have, the ability is some percentage of that value. If you build another ship, or research an upgrade, that ability just became less valuable. What I mean is: what do you mean when you say this?
Reply #61 from Stardock Forums Top
Since it came up, unupgraded asteroids do, indeed, only have 1000 health. As of my test 20 seconds ago, anyway.

Just fyi.
Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top
Originally Posted By Mettra
(1) I think you're making the slight error of not considering other planet-killing options. When compared with ANY planet-killing options in the game, this ability is the best. You can force someone to leave their planet vulnerable in many ways, one of which is destroying their fleet, which Marza's are good at.
A Jarrasul Evacuator does 1,500 damage or more with its Drain Planet ability. This also gives you credits and does the damage faster than Raze Planet. While it takes a long time to recharge, it still has far more bonuses than Raze Planet. It's not just a little better, it's a lot better. Keep in mind that the mentioned ability is for a colony capital.


(2) He specifically said that this ability should be microed. So it isn't a problem. If you're 1 on one with a ship and can't help triggering the mitigation, it's not a big deal anyway. Stating that you can't spam it is not an argument against it, it's better than any other options you have.
Not only does the Kol have weapons pointing in pretty much every direction, making it much harder, target priority comes into the equation twice. For instance, you have your Kol fighting a militia Kodiak and its usual supporting Javelis/Krosovs/etc., you have to choose: Am I going to get their biggest gun out faster or not? Am I going to waste 75 antimatter on something doing not nearly as much damage or not?
Even when you've got four Kodiaks facing down a Kol, it's still better to keep focused on one target. It's always better to get that gun off your ship faster and not give the enemy a chance to recover.

Another thing is that the railgun will rarely, if ever, do full damage with the railgun. Makes the description fairly misleading.

(3) Every ability in the entire game loses its value as the game progresses. If you add up the 'value' of everything you have, the ability is some percentage of that value. If you build another ship, or research an upgrade, that ability just became less valuable. What I mean is: what do you mean when you say this?
The value of your fleet and its capabilities shouldn't be a percentage, it should be a number.
Let's say Kodiaks are worth 20 "value points", Kols worth 60-100, and so on. Most things don't lose value when the enemy's economy inflates to ridiculousness. Intercept doesn't lose its worth as the enemy gets more ships or researches turn rate upgrades - in fact, it may even get more worthwhile since you'd need help more urgently.
On that matter, let's look at Cobalts; do they lose their value as the game progresses on? No, they might even be more worth their cost thanks to their unlockable abilities. Do scouts lose their potential as the game continues? No, remote sensors and timed explosives are marvelous, especially if you need to monitor an uncolonizable without keeping a unit there.

While some things do tend to lose some of their value as the game drags on, Embargo loses quite a bit of worth when people have oversized income rates. That's the entire problem; it becomes practically useless once the game gets to its later stages.
...well, unless you're trying to get the Anti-Globalization achievement, but that's another story entirely.
Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top
Well, the TEC capitals are weaker because their base ships are so strong for the cheap cost. But they certainly don't all suck.

One thing that shocked me was that he said Ion Bolt sucks. Really? At level 3 its so spammable that those 7 seconds become 35-56 seconds of an enemy capital ship being completely helpless. When you're focus firing on a crippled ship, that can make all the difference in the world. Fighting in your own culture makes it near permanent spam.

The Akkan is a great ship to have backing up a sizable fleet. As mentioned, the Targetting Uplink increases the Javelis range from 11,000+ to 13,200+. Keep in mind the attack range for the average ship is 4,000. This means you can attack from about 3.3 times the distance using TEC LRM's. It also helps ships deal with players who mass strikecraft. While the TEC colonization bonus sucks(250-750 free credits? compared to 1,000's of savings in all resources for the Advent? that doesn't even work half the time when structures are in the way?), I think it should instantly destroy all enemy structures AND give the free extractors. Higher levels should also give an 'instant' population cap to the planet. Armistice also gives you time for construction of defenses and incoming reinforcements. It can also save your LRM's from nasty abilities like the Devastators Volatile Nanites(think corpse explosion), if cast when you notice the telltale orange glow.

Some other notes:
The Marza's Planet Raze is indeed poor compared to the Evacuator's 1,450 planet damage with heaps of free resources. This kills non-upgraded asteroids in ~20 seconds. It also heavily damages upgraded asteroids and any planets with 3,000 health. But killing population and moving on kills a planets tax revenue. Not awesome, but a small bonus if you're using it to raid enemy territory. Its just a shame that the Dreadnought is so slow.

The Sova's Missile Battery gets a stronger attack as it levels up. I'm not sure if its rate of attack or range upgrade. Overall, its an easy ability to drop in the midst of a battle.

One thing I wish Ironclad was more clear about is whether or not any particular ability affects all ships in range or just one target. Some of the abilities that target enemies seem weak until you realize you hit every ship in the area.

The Kol's Gauss Cannon is meant to be used with Finest Hour, letting you spam the attack to quickly take down any smaller ships, and put big dents on capital ships. Even so, a small buff wouldn't hurt much.

Remember too that all TEC ships can be repaired on the go with the awesome Hoshiko Robotics Cruisers. Sneak a few in your fleet and ships last a lot longer, even better if there is a Dunov around. That makes a Kol into a nigh invincible monster. Probably a bit too complicated to pull off in smaller games, it would make a mean match in larger games.
Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top
The Sova's Missile Battery gets a stronger attack as it levels up. I'm not sure if its rate of attack or range upgrade. Overall, its an easy ability to drop in the midst of a battle.


Stardock missile battery post

It would seem the battery gets more hull, shields, and armor; does more damage per shot (base damage is 13 at lvl 1 to 18 at lvl 3); and fires faster. They get all the applicable research upgrades for ship defenses and missiles, too.

All things considered, it'd seem the Sova's the most heavily reliant on having strong military research, given that the battery and the fighters are all upgradeable both by special abilities and ship upgrades.
Reply #65 from Stardock Forums Top
A Jarrasul Evacuator does 1,500 damage or more with its Drain Planet ability. This also gives you credits and does the damage faster than Raze Planet. While it takes a long time to recharge, it still has far more bonuses than Raze Planet. It's not just a little better, it's a lot better. Keep in mind that the mentioned ability is for a colony capital. (1)

Not only does the Kol have weapons pointing in pretty much every direction, making it much harder, target priority comes into the equation twice. For instance, you have your Kol fighting a militia Kodiak and its usual supporting Javelis/Krosovs/etc., you have to choose: Am I going to get their biggest gun out faster or not? Am I going to waste 75 antimatter on something doing not nearly as much damage or not?

Even when you've got four Kodiaks facing down a Kol, it's still better to keep focused on one target. It's always better to get that gun off your ship faster and not give the enemy a chance to recover. (2)

The value of your fleet and its capabilities shouldn't be a percentage, it should be a number.

Let's say Kodiaks are worth 20 "value points", Kols worth 60-100, and so on. Most things don't lose value when the enemy's economy inflates to ridiculousness. (3)

On that matter, let's look at Cobalts; do they lose their value as the game progresses on? No, they might even be more worth their cost thanks to their unlockable abilities.

Do scouts lose their potential as the game continues? No, remote sensors and timed explosives are marvelous, especially if you need to monitor an uncolonizable without keeping a unit there. (4)


(1) Yes, and even better than that is the TEC superweapon. But how long will it take you to get there? I should have qualified this a little better, yes, but saying a lvl 6 ability is better than an ability that you can choose right off the bat (although normally, you'd probably get it second if you were going for it) is not necessarily true. Smaller games might not even let a single capital ship level to 6, for example.

Then there are the other factors to take into account. These abilities don't exist in a pile in a warehouse that you pick and choose from, they come as part of a total package. The total package of the Marza in most multiplayer games (this is what we're talking about, I assume) is much better than the total package of the Space Whale (also they're obviously two separate races, a pre-game mitigating factor).

To compare them more easily, imagine that the Space Whale had the Marza's ability as an extra option while losing the lvl 6 option of Drain Planet. In the slightly-larger-than-very-small games where Marzas and Space Whales would come into play, the Space Whale would arguably be BETTER off this way than it is now. Hopefully, that makes what I meant a little clearer. My apologies for the incomplete statement.

(2) Honestly, in these situations, it doesn't even matter. If you're talking about killing militia to take a planet, that's a very insignificant fight or at least not a fight where something like Gauss Cannon will matter very much (aside from speeding things up). In your specific example, why not open fire with Gauss, then finish the job? If you don't have enough energy, the question of who to fire upon is pointless.

The real question behind all this is: does the ability do a good amount of damage? In most fights with another player, the damage inflicted by this ability is significant, even with 'wasted' damage from mitigation. If the listed damage was lowered and changed to ignore mitigation, would there still be a problem - that is, is it all just psychological? Having a discussion about the particular examples you cite won't really lead us to an answer of that question.

A slightly more pointed question would be about whether or not the Kol is balanced with other battleships early/mid/late game. The fact that one chooses Gauss as the first Kol ability already says that it's the 'optimal' choice - the question of the topic is 'is it optimal enough?'. I feel it probably is, but I can't demonstrate it to you objectively (nor you can do the same for the opposite argument) because it's a rather subtle issue that probably only gives an answer with lots of playtesting.

(3) That's not correct. If you assign a number of value points and add them all up, you will get a total. Let's say you have 5 ships worth 1 point each. You have a total of 5 points. Each ship is worth 20% of the total value that you have. Now you build another ship, and have 6 - total 6 points. Each ship is now worth 16.6% of your total.

The absolute value of each ship is the same (it will never change in this simplified example). However, the relative value will always decrease as you get more total points. So, by analogy, the longer a game goes on and the more total points you gain (including points for planets, economy, logistics, whatever), the smaller relative value each individual bit has.

Now you CAN increase the absolute value (and therefore, relative value) of ships and capitals by researching (and leveling). Abilities can have their relative (and absolute) values increased as well. But those are discrete one-time events. As a whole, everything will decrease in relative value as you gain more 'stuff.'

The ability (given that it's level 3 to simplify the example) will always have the same absolute value. But if you build another ship (or trade port or whatever), it will be worth less to you than it was before.

Now, I think what you're trying to say is that the value 'curve' for this ability is too 'flat' near the latter part of the game (when compared with the later-game economy). Others also think that it's too 'steep' at the beginning of the game. In other words, at the beginning, the relative value of the ability is extremely high, and at the end, it's extremely low (in longer games).

Some might say that balances the ability, but I would disagree because that's an ugly 'curve' to have for anything, and it's totally inelegant. They'd probably benefit from reducing the effectiveness of the first level and increasing the effectiveness of the third level or rescaling the whole thing as a percentage or something.

If I still have misunderstood you, please correct me.

(4) In both of these examples, the ships have experienced an increase in their absolute value, and therefore also in their relative value. Abilities experience EXACTLY the same kind of increase when levelled so this particular argument doesn't work.
Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top
(1) Yes, and even better than that is the TEC superweapon. But how long will it take you to get there? I should have qualified this a little better, yes, but saying a lvl 6 ability is better than an ability that you can choose right off the bat (although normally, you'd probably get it second if you were going for it) is not necessarily true. (2) Smaller games might not even let a single capital ship level to 6, for example.

1.Well, I did the math and I guess it's not as bad as it sounds from my experience and the information given. At full power, it does 9.6 DPS with cooldown considered while Drain Planet does around 7.(279) with cooldown and warm-up considered.

2.Don't underestimate how fast capitals gain levels. I've gotten a Kol to level 10 on militia alone.

(1) Honestly, in these situations, it doesn't even matter. If you're talking about killing militia to take a planet, that's a very insignificant fight or at least not a fight where something like Gauss Cannon will matter very much (aside from speeding things up). In your specific example, why not open fire with Gauss, then finish the job? (2) If you don't have enough energy, the question of who to fire upon is pointless.
1.I've run into some sizable milita forces in my time. I've seen a militia with four Kodiaks at one planet before, so it certainly does matter when you want to keep your ship alive without having to flee.

2.I tend to plan ahead. A little bit of thinking can get a Kol to kill four Kodiaks and their supporting frigates.

(1) The real question behind all this is: does the ability do a good amount of damage? In most fights with another player, the damage inflicted by this ability is significant, even with 'wasted' damage from mitigation. (2) If the listed damage was lowered and changed to ignore mitigation, would there still be a problem - that is, is it all just psychological? Having a discussion about the particular examples you cite won't really lead us to an answer of that question.
1.See the next quote.

2.What I was suggesting was not a change to damage, but to the "appearance" of the damage; just change the infocard so that it says that the weapon does 400 damage - or whatever the most common number is - instead of saying 800, which is practically a lie. The weapon will still do the same damage, but the average number of how much damage is typically applied will be displayed over the current 800 indication.
Basically, the game will say that the ability does 400 damage when it really does 800...kind of. I hope you understand what I mean by this.

A slightly more pointed question would be about whether or not the Kol is balanced with other battleships early/mid/late game. The fact that one chooses Gauss as the first Kol ability already says that it's the 'optimal' choice - the question of the topic is 'is it optimal enough?'. I feel it probably is, but I can't demonstrate it to you objectively (nor you can do the same for the opposite argument) because it's a rather subtle issue that probably only gives an answer with lots of playtesting.
I agree with the playtesting bit, but I'm just one of those who feels it's fairly lackluster compared to some of the other abilities ships have. I mean, look at the Rad Bomb the Marza has. 375 damage with 21 damage over five seconds, totalling 480 damage. The Kol will typically do 280-680 damage with the railgun. While the fight drags out, the Kol will lose power while the Marza remains a heavy hitter. At the end of the battle, the Marza may very well have done far more damage with its nuke than the Kol did with its railgun.
Now, tell me, is it right that the bombardment ship should do more damage with a direct combat ability than the battleship? I really don't think so from my perspective.

As a bit of a sidenote, I'd like to point out that both Raze Planet and Radiation Bomb do the same amount of damage for one hit at each level. Found it a bit odd that each adds up to 160, then to 320, and finally 480.

I'm just going to skip most of the next bit so we can save a lot of time.
Now, I think what you're trying to say is that the value 'curve' for this ability is too 'flat' near the latter part of the game (when compared with the later-game economy). Others also think that it's too 'steep' at the beginning of the game. In other words, at the beginning, the relative value of the ability is extremely high, and at the end, it's extremely low (in longer games).
Some might say that balances the ability, but I would disagree because that's an ugly 'curve' to have for anything, and it's totally inelegant. They'd probably benefit from reducing the effectiveness of the first level and increasing the effectiveness of the third level or rescaling the whole thing as a percentage or something.
If we agree on this, why are we arguing?

I'd like to say that I'm glad to have finally found someone on the internet who doesn't argue by flinging insults.
Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top
You guys do understand that the game developers want balance, right? Is it not reasonable to think that a race with so many other tactical abilites which surpass Advent and Vasari that their Capital Ships might not be so hot?
Reply #68 from Sins Forums Top
Careful kc_cooper, all this making sense and talking about balance will prompt the troll to call you a moron. On the upside, his posts are the equivalent of grammatical siezures, always good for a laugh.
Reply #69 from Sins Forums Top
I just want to be clear here,

we are taking about humans far far into the future & the best they can do is rail guns??? Seriously?!?! If the idea of rail & gauss guns have been around for years already, I, personally, find it difficult to believe that a human society hundreds or thousands of years beyond that would even still be using technology of that nature. I mean lets be honest, we as a "race" cant wait for the next, new proccessor or video card... or game (winks). It is a logical assumtion that humans in the future would have a vast technological understanding, Far beyond that of rail guns or "coil & magnetic acceleration technology"

But thats just my opinion... =P
Reply #70 from Sins Forums Top
we are taking about humans far far into the future & the best they can do is rail guns??? Seriously?!?!
Remember 5 years ago, when humanity was supposed to be living in flying space domes with flying cars, like the Jetsons? How did that turn out? Technology does not leap and bound as fast as you think.

You're also not appreciating the SCALE of the technology here. Modern rail guns are nothing more than toys set up in a laboratory. They are FAR too fragile to use on the battlefield. If you put any decent amount of energy into it, the machine will tear up! Also, the biggest thing you might fire is no larger than a good sized marble. Modern rail guns are very unlikely to be dangerous to an actual space warship, you'd simply fix the hole (IF there's a hole) with chewing gum! Rail guns today are a FAR cry from combat worthiness in all but the most staged of situations.

The TEC rail gun is HUGE, most likely built along the spine of the entire Kol ship. This itself means the entire ship design must be built around the weapon, and being a capital ship the design must've taken at least years of thorough research. The gun fires giant boulder SLUGS at near relativistic speeds, capable of tearing gaping chasms through an entire ship. These boulders put an equal reactionary force along the massive magnetic rails, and put large stress on the Kol as a whole. Yet despite that the weapon does not shatter, and the ship is good to fire until it runs out of energy. The energy is also antimatter, a far cry from the power sources of the biggest rail guns used today. Not only that, the gauss weapon still works when the whole ship is getting shot at by massive barrages of missiles, plasma, lasers, and autocannons.

You bet your ass that such a powerful, reliable, combat hardened (and space worthy!) rail gun is not going to be seen for a VERY long time.
Basically, the game will say that the ability does 400 damage when it really does 800...kind of. I hope you understand what I mean by this.
Now THAT will make things confusing. Everything in the game shows off the full damage it does. Max mitigation is its own mechanic. You should not have one ability compensate from this, have nothing else compensate, and then confuse the hell out of players when their "400" damage shot is STILL not doing 400 damage! A maze of gamecard info mixed into gameplay mechanics is a disaster waiting to happen.
Reply #71 from Sins Forums Top
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun

"In February 2008 the US Navy tested a magnetic railgun; it fired a shell at 5,600 miles per hour using 10 megajoules of energy. Its expected performance is over 13,000 miles per hour muzzle velocity, accurate enough to hit a 5 meter target from 200 nautical miles away while shooting at 10 shots per minute. It is expected to be ready in 2020 to 2025."
Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top
I just want to be clear here, we are taking about humans far far into the future & the best they can do is rail guns??? Seriously?!?! If the idea of rail & gauss guns have been around for years already, I, personally, find it difficult to believe that a human society hundreds or thousands of years beyond that would even still be using technology of that nature. I mean lets be honest, we as a "race" cant wait for the next, new proccessor or video card... or game (winks). It is a logical assumtion that humans in the future would have a vast technological understanding, Far beyond that of rail guns or "coil & magnetic acceleration technology"But thats just my opinion... =P


If you read the background story (remember the background story?) the TEC hadn't had any military force for almost 1000 years.

The best they had were ploice and anti-pirate forces. All their weapons are based off their MINING ships. Thus, lasers, missiles, and railguns.

The book even says that he Kol is their first DEDICATED warship class.....all the others are converted freighters/asteroid breakers. The Sovva carrier was an anti-pirate enforcer.

They've only had a military for about 10 years, and now the Advent have shown up.

And the Advent are human, you know. They have Kewl psi-power ships, and other Things Dudes Were Not Meant To Know on their ships.

The TEC are doing pretty good, considering.
Reply #73 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with the Kols abilitys being crappy but its one of the hand full of units that have an all around attack. The Kol doesn't need special ability's its weapons do the talking. And the TEC special ability's are all pretty good. The Marza is by far my favorite. The info card for raze planet is telling you the damage per shot. level one does three shots and level 3 does about 6 or 7 i think, each shot doing 80 damage and docking 10 from pop. in 5 seconds I had 2 Marzas wipe out the whole population of a planet and cause 1500 worth of damage. Theres no way you could say thats a joke. Honestly I think you just dont like the TEC and dont really pay attention to the game to see how much these ability's help.
Reply #74 from Sins Forums Top
A slightly more pointed question would be about whether or not the Kol is balanced with other battleships early/mid/late game. The fact that one chooses Gauss as the first Kol ability already says that it's the 'optimal' choice - the question of the topic is 'is it optimal enough?'. I feel it probably is, but I can't demonstrate it to you objectively (nor you can do the same for the opposite argument) because it's a rather subtle issue that probably only gives an answer with lots of playtesting.


I always upgrade shields first, then Gauss, then Flak (Flak doesn't get any points until Gauss and Shield and Finest Hour are maxed, it's that bad).

I think it's fair to say a Kol with level 3 shields will survive longer than a Kol with level 3 Gauss.
Reply #75 from Stardock Forums Top
Don't underestimate how fast capitals gain levels. I've gotten a Kol to level 10 on militia alone. (1)

I've run into some sizable milita forces in my time. I've seen a militia with four Kodiaks at one planet before, so it certainly does matter when you want to keep your ship alive without having to flee. (2)

What I was suggesting was not a change to damage, but to the "appearance" of the damage; just change the infocard so that it says that the weapon does 400 damage - or whatever the most common number is - instead of saying 800, which is practically a lie. (3)

I agree with the playtesting bit, but I'm just one of those who feels it's fairly lackluster compared to some of the other abilities ships have. I mean, look at the Rad Bomb the Marza has.

While the fight drags out, the Kol will lose power while the Marza remains a heavy hitter.

Now, tell me, is it right that the bombardment ship should do more damage with a direct combat ability than the battleship? I really don't think so from my perspective. (4)

If we agree on this, why are we arguing? (5)

I'd like to say that I'm glad to have finally found someone on the internet who doesn't argue by flinging insults. (6)


(1) And this would take... ages? In 1v1 games, this wouldn't happen. In 2v2 games, this wouldn't happen. In larger games, maybe... but it would still take ages. The fact that it CAN be done doesn't automatically make it relevant.

(2) The largest militia forces are on Terran planets, and there is a maximum size to them. In 1v1 games, I can't really imagine a situation where you would be capturing a Terran planet anyway. 2v2 games, only after the first couple of asteroids and after you have a sizeable fleet, so the cap wouldn't be by himself anyway. A desert planet is similar in its size, and the militia there are capable of killing a capital, but they meet up with the same scenario.

The real use of damage spikes is against another player where one damage spike can turn the odds around in your favor. Generally speaking, if both players play theoretically 'perfectly', they will be perfectly matched in their fleet power once they meet up with each other (assuming the game is balanced :)). Abilities like the damage spike allow for quicker kills > quicker DPS removal > more survivability > you win. This is their real use - to skew the balance in favor of yourself when pitted against another player.

(3) Well, let me be the first to utterly slay you and tell you that pretty much every damage number you can see in the game is a lie :). Not just because of mitigation, but quite a few damage numbers are rounded to zero decimal places when some of them have as many as ... 5? 7? I don't recall.

Anyway, your number would still be a lie too ;).

(4) The problem with this particular analysis is... well a lot of things ;). You've got to consider the total package of the Kol vs. the total package of the Marza. Yes, the Marza's ability does more damage given certain circumstances, however the Kol kicks its ass in damage, probably even with the Rad Bomb. The Kol's main ability, that isn't listed, is its independence regarding antimatter. It doesn't need antimatter to be a pretty good cap. It does tons of damage. What it doesn't do is kill planets or do AoE - the Marza does both of these very well.

One of the BIGGEST advantages of the Kol is that it's not devastated by the Kortul Devastator (pun, not intended, please do not flame oh ye forum hoppers). In a match TEC vs. Vasari, not only do Assailants have trouble killing the Kol, but the Devastator's main ability (at this stage in the game) is less useful against the Kol. Both attackers combined are very effective, of course, but compare this situation to other matchups. If you choose a ship such as the Marza that has a heavy antimatter dependence, the Kortul will annihilate you with its antimatter burning passive ability. There are subtleties like these in effect sprinkled throughout the game for racial balance purposes. But this is just one example where the Kol is strong and no other is.

(5) Well, I misunderstood what you were saying before. The problem with having an argument is that we all have to agree on the definitions of the terms in use, just as we have to agree that when I say 'the' it means the same thing as when YOU say 'the'. That's what the big example was for.

(6) An argument is a means to an end, an indirect search for an answer. Otherwise it's just random noise on an internet forum ;).