Since we all know the math isn't very good for this game (seriously, remember all the people who float around saying the upgrades are too small, only to be told that they have a much larger effect than the math suggests?) so don't rely on it.

On the contrary, with a well armed swarm of bombers you can kill pretty much anything with one or two sweeps. A group of 15-20 will kill almost any ship/structure with ease.

I've been able to kill a marza and 2 dunow with a vasari fleet of my own, Dunovs and Akkan with a carrier you name it.

The key is to keep the Dunov or others support capital ships phaseout while you hammer the others. You better form all your bombers into a group and benefit from the group attack order so they all attack the same target at once instead of going around trying to select them all from the map. Make sure you keep adding to your bomber/fighter group as more become available to form a deadly bomber group. They are deadly in high numbers more so for the vasari as I had been able to kill ships even with their shields up (not by much).

Wow, so your fleet of 20 light carriers and at least 2 cap ships (for the 'phasing out' tactic) can take out 2 Dunovs.

Sorry about the swearing yarlen, another social norm I've never been able to figure out and don't even notice.

Hull phase out lasts 8 seconds for 50 antimatter, that's 8 shots in a row, over a minute phased out. Assuming two marauders and one devastator against three dunovs, what would you say are the odds of them not being able to dish out 5k damage in 64+ seconds? Whether it's a reasonable expectation for a counter is questionable, but not whether it's effective. This couldn't be a more obvious end if they'd tested the scenario already. Autocast would be the only chance of survival here. You can't even run away, the antoraks will mow you down and lock ships up.

Ron, you looked at the entity files yet? All the research numbers are in there, the damage upgrades really do have .05 increments. Gamers tend to not be the brightest bunch, it's generally impossible to convince someone that ten units up against 11 identical units will get floored with as much as half the enemy units still around at the end. I've not noticed any abnormal damage increases myself, but then I don't expect a 5% increase in damage to mean 5% of my fleet is left in an even battle, perception.

Paradoxnt, he doesn't seem to be following your scenario, but his example isn't entirely off. It was two dunovs and something else, so you only need to phase out one ship, and with 15-20 bombers, you wouldn't need two anyway. Odds are you can kill the first one before your first phase out runs off, you've got six more if it takes two. You might have half your antimatter left when the job is done. 15-20 bombers is a wee bit high on the fleet usage, although not because that fleet size is unreasonable. Unfortunately they cost a good deal more than missile frigates do in metal and crystal, so you're not saving money with this route and wouldn't have the advantage in resources to splurge on extra fleet increases over your opponent. Would be curious to see an even usage tested though. Carriers with a lone marauder up against three dunovs should be close without magnetize, with it I have no clue, probably painful.

Thanks.   I curse like a madman myself at times, but gotta remember we're trying to keep it to BBC America levels here.

Okay, so 20 light carriers and a marauder can take out 2 Dunovs.

20 carriers and a marauder can probably take out four, maybe five. I don't know if a more reasonable equivalence can, but since he's hardly the first to post unimportant information regarding irrelevant scenarios, you could stick to not being a jerk.

Yarlen, how about just BBC?

psychoak, not to insult, but I am stricken dumfounded by your lack of understanding of both the counters and the strategy you're trying to counter and also understanding of testing parameters. what you've said either 1) mimics me, very nice choice by the way or 2) doesnt understand the light in which we were trying to test. Ron:

people who say the "math" didnt add up were looking at it all wrong, I've always said that the upgrades are massively powerful, and the math supports me. people think that its simply a matter of pure .05 increase.... no... its more about the compound interest that develops.

I'm well aware of the fact that the difference is only 5%; what I'm saying is that the effect is much larger than most people think it is on hearing its only 5%. For whatever reason, the math doesn't work well.



True, its a compound interest style problem, but the basic point is the same: "historically" math hasn't proven very accurate, and as such doesn't make a convincing argument without practical tests behind it.

it hasnt worked because people think of it in all the wrong ways. I'm sorry Ron, but the math is dead on, its the gamers who are off.

Your missing my point -- which, to be fair, is probably because I'm stating it poorly. If, historically, people have mis-applied the math or otherwise screwed it up, and that fact was only shown via testing, then math alone becomes much less decisive until backed up with tests.

theres nothing inherently decisive about math, its just right almost all of the time.

It's simple arithmatic, not theoretical simulations that haven't been proven wrong yet. It will be right all the time, only people can do it wrong. Either that or 2+2 isn't actually 4, in which case I'm a figment of someones imagination and don't give a shit.

Schod, good. The more people I can confuse the better. I have no idea why you're dumbfounded, there's not a lot of complexity in this overblown problem, but everyone is oblivious to the obvious at some point. Perhaps you're thinking too hard? If you're confused, giving examples is better than making two rather vague categorizations. Are you just noticing that I'm an asshole? If so you're rather late.

The gist of the thread to date. Three level three dunov's manually controlled kick the crap out of a diverse group of, arguably, retarded fleet compositions. Do I have it right?

Is my reference to autocast as a possible and likely ineffective counter to marauders phasing them out bothering you? It's a valid step in logic, if you cannot manually cast, you may be able to use autocast and still get the shield restores off in a less than ideal manner. Or perhaps they're too long and you only read the first sentence of each paragraph? I am rather inept when it comes to brevity, the brain doesn't work that well. I suppose that question needed to be in the first sentence as well...

I have been following this thread for some time, as there has been some interesting discussion going on; however, it IS troubling that a good post can be sidetracked by so many immature outbursts of negativity. "Name Calling" is commonly referred to as childish behavior and only serves to undermine any established credibility. Not to mention the fact that anyone who has been watching this exchange will have second thoughts about participating in ANY discussion on this forum. Few would be willing to share honest feedback when doing so also exposes themselves to unwarranted attack.

Hamarabi

P.S. I appreciate the strength of character in those who have refrained from such negativity, even while being directly attacked. Your resolve to be a positive force in the community must be commended.

Perhaps you could post ideas with your next scathing yet diminutive post? Someone is sure to be an asshole, but then you're already posting so you'll get it anyway.

Anyone discouraged by ridicule on the internet has other issues. Besides it's the most active thread on the forum despite our uncivilized manner, a recently invented concept by the way. The golden rule isn't do unto others only nice things, it's do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I'm not an emotionally delicate glass figurine, I don't need to be treated as such. Honesty, yours included, is much preferable.

i touch myself at night!

I'm dumbfounded because you completely flew over the point and around the moon... if you're testing "the triple dunov imbalance theory" by making two dunovs and a bunch of frigs (which dilute the effects of the dunov, making it weaker) then you obviously have hit your head sometime during your post.

who doesnt?

I guess you need to read the thread again too. No where have I gone off on frigate armies with dunov supports for a test scenario.

Eet, wonderful, really. Just wash your hands before typing ok? Unless it's already on the keyboard...

fine, say I were to grant you the fact that this dunov strategy MIGHT be used by some idiot in tandem with a bunch of frigs. your tests still fail just like everything I've been fighting against because they ignore crutial factors, you just happen to be on the other side of the spectrum of the fleetpointers.

You have a stubborn case of confused by self. While I do enjoy arguing just for the sake of arguing, I've never been particularly interested in arguing something wrong. So, I'll use simple words in a short sentence and say it again.

I didn't post any dunov and frigate army tests.

Do a find on samrec, read the following posts from there, maybe you'll figure it out a second time through. For someone with horrific punctuation, I'm surprised you have problems reading almost proper grammar.

oh thats a laugh Psy, you posted a list of "should be tested" discrediting all other tests in the process, frankly I trust gaunts other tests more than that.

English appears to be your first language, so I'm going to assume you're just not bothering to check and see if you're making an ass of yourself. I've just read through every post in the thread, again, through mine four times each, even did a search on applicable keywords in case I was just blind. I made no such list, I made no list at all. I did not even imply that they should be using frigates with their dunovs. I even checked to see if you could have gotten the idea from my lazy man italics quoting of gauntlets post if you were skimming and didn't catch that the italics were his post.

If I said it, quote it. Since I didn't, save the idiocy for the next time you feel a need to be an asshat. Persisting to argue with an agreeing party over something that doesn't exist is rather stupid.

twit.

actually shoddy, its TIwtt

notably I posted that and the list, and since it came from me I was hardly trying to discredit any tests. It was just honest expression of something I'd enjoy testing.

Psychoak had suggestions but he didn't post that.