Balance concern - triple Dunov

Use vasari missile frigats. Or use the vasari support cap with its disable ability or its counterpart on the TEC side the Akkan.

If that fails, id like to meet one with that setup. Sounds easy to counter

TEC has counters for someone ability spamming like that as well...

the cobalt's anti matter disruption ability? comes too late if the enemy focuses on getting those three dunovs early. the only other thing I could think of would be a mix of lights, lrms and a capital or two, or massed bombers with clever carrier movement. but then he stated that in a test they killed all that a from a game they played a heard similar things. so if I'm not missing sth it seems a valid concern (at least against tec, vasari of course have phase missile that work wonders against it).

Counters:

TEC -

Akkan - Ion Bolt
Dunov - Antimatter drain
Kol - Gauss cannon
Sova - Flexibility

3 of either ships will do a pretty good job of screwing with the Dunovs. 3 Ion Bolts can keep 2 Dunovs locked down long enough to chew through the third with relative ease. 3 Antimatter drains (that actually work in a radius, not single target) from Dunovs will leave them dry. 3 Gauss cannon shots will do same/more damage than a Dunov can regen. Sovas can fly around and let bombers do the work to drain them of antimatter without getting hit.

This isn't in addition to brute force with LRMs/bombers.

Vasari -

Antorak Marauder - even a single marauder can keep 2 Dunovs permanently phased out and unable to regen the third. It needs fast clicking, but very doable.

Vulkoras Desolator - Phase missile swarm will damage 3 ships at once pretty heavily, making them have to regen 3 ships instead of focusing on one.

Space whale/planet sucker - ability that does direct hp damage, 30/s, bypasses shields completely.

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Plenty of counters

Sorry People but your mostly wrong.

Since someone is finally posting on this, I suppose the Cat is out of the bag, me and Paradoxnt and a few others have been testing the Dunov's for some time.

Test: all sides have upgrades up to military tech 3,

2 Desolators one at 4 and one at 3, and 1 Carrier at level 3 with 12 missile frigates
Versus
4 Dunovs.

Almost killed one Dunov, all Vasari forces destroyed. Thats 200FP for the Vasari verus only 160 for the TEC

2 Kols, or 2 Marzas, vs 2 Dunovs = Destroyed no Dunov Losses
2 Marauders vs 2 Dunovs = Destroyed no Dunov Losses

All tests have had equal ammount of technology and equal distribution of capital ship levels. What it comes down to is that in a straight fight a double Dunov wins over anything of equal value. Strategically there are ways around them, but tactically they are superior.

Gauss Cannons are not a counter as eventually you must be able to beat them on an Offensive move. My personal theory is that the Akkan Might stand a chance, but probablly not due to the speed issue, the Dunovs flying in circles murders... allot.

Sova's also offer a challenge to the Dunov team, but not by much.

I seriously think that the Dunov's shield regen should be limited to not being able to regen Dunov ships, this would solve everything. You could argue that regen-ing on a ship that can transmit the regen frys the emmitter or some such.

sounds like you guys are far too capship dependant, this strategy should be as easy as countering with a normal fleet, just make sure that you focus fire.

for tests you need to introduce restraints to try to isolate given elements. also, consider that they played an actual game too (para and ruidin) and there weren't exclusively cap ships.

the intersting fact is that dunovs get wasted - completely wasted - when you don't move them around, in particular against marzas. but since they have such a good firing arc and imo good maneuverability they can avoid being shot at a lot.

also, here I want to say that this goes way way into the sort of micromanagement I totally hate. I don't think it was the game's premise to have to turn off autocast for it to work or to micro the battle in telling the cs to do circles and whatever. ships ai should be smart enough to exploit those advantages without me interfering.

Or you are, because you don't micromanage enough. There is no way for 2 Antoraks to lose to 2 Dunovs. No way at all. I've managed to keep 3 capitals locked down and unable to make a jump with a single Antorak.



As I said, Sovas can beat Dunovs just by flying around out of reach while bombers keep pounding one and forcing them to spend the antimatter on regen, also dropping missile pods along the way for extra damage while the Dunovs hopelessly chase..

I came across Paradoxnt's triple Dunov strategy and was winning till the game crashed. LOL
but I did lose a lot of ships.

1) did you look over their replay?
2) those constraints are only making your testing terrible, they make your data worthless, not helpful.

Annatar- I could be wrong, but I micro pretty intensively, and with a Dunov's average laser damage being 73 at the time, and my highest average weapon damage being 28 it was pretty much pointless, what it comes down to is the Marauders have to phase out one and then the other, timing it so that the enemy never can shield restore, unfortunately the Dunov's fire power murders you since you cant target a ship that is phased out (now if im wrong on that then I could definately be wrong)

Who said the Dunovs would chase the Sovas? a smart player wouldn't chase them into missile pods at least, I must say though that Sovas are the best bet for defeating them, this was our most inconclusive test, Thats why I mentioned it, I wasn't mentioning it to bash the Sova, far from it!

Now in a regular game, yes the two dunov's are a bit of a liabillity if you don't have frigates backing them up, and if your enemy just takes out frigates with his Caps, well your Dunovs will survive but they will likely leave as they have no escort and you probablly took minor losses. But in a toe to toe capship battle the Dunov reigns supreme in teams, mostly because while the Sovas will at least give them an even fight, the Sovas can be taken out by combos of Marzas and Kols, the Dunovs cannot. For straight up Cap-Ship battles the Dunovs are safe from more combinations than Any other cap ship, making them a logical choice.

The Dunov requires good micro to do this, but if you do it really is unfair. Would it really bother anyone if Dunovs shield regen couldn't work on Dunovs? I mean its not like any of you really want to use 2 Dunovs right? This would only promote diversity, and wouldn't change a single statistic.

Its not the Dunov's stats so much as the combination of 2 and more.

I mean honestly how does it make sense the numerous 'Support' capital ships completely dominate the front line attack capital ships?

But again, the same can be said when you mass enough of any capital. A bunch of Vasari battleships all with their shield regen/weapon cooldown abilities active will rip anything a new one. A bunch of Antoraks can keep a fleet of capitals permanently phased out and out of the fight, or keep a friendly fleet of capitals from dying by focus fire. A bunch of carriers can swarm you with fighters/bombers. A bunch of Akkans can ion bolt you to death. A bunch of Vulkoras desolators can pop 4-5 frigates every 15 seconds with just their phase missile swarm. A bunch of Kols can spike a single target very hard with gauss cannons. So on so forth..

It's unique, not overpowered.

It seems like a inelegant fix to me, if even a fix is needed. Right now it sounds more 'neat' than anything. Yep -- it's possibly overpowered, but it doesn't look like counters have been fully explored yet. Give it a little time before crying nerf? :/

umm, a few of the proposed counter strategies suppose that the dunov player is going to sit there and take his licks. Or that in a real game, the dunovs are all you'd be facing.

The Sova's I found won handily when I let the Dunov autocast. They were beaten easily when I microed the Dunov, despite Paradoxnt moving the carriers around like crazy.

Marza faired the worst. Even though a proportion of the damage they dealt was shield piercing (lingering damage/radiation bomb) they couldn't do enough damage quickly enough to stop them. All 3 died, 1 Dunov had about quarter/half hull gone.

Against the same fleet points of frigates, the dunov slaughtered them. It took about 50 cobalts focused fire to break them, using the sabotage antimatter ability. Thats over twice the fp.

Anything works as a counter if you chuck enough at it... the thing we need to consider is if it is balanced, or balanced enough for it not to be overpowering. I would recommend folk try it for themselves and report back

Im not crying nerf, what you call an inelegant fix doesn't change a single unit stat, encourages fleet diversity, and discourages a seriously odd and overpowered tactic.

The Dunov as a support ship is fine, but as a combo its too good.

Annatar, we are using extreme versus extremes and the Dunov's continually win out, thats the essence of overpowered. Two Vasari Battleships against two Kols or two Marzas will either lose, win, or be an decently even fight. Two Vasari Battleships versus two Dunovs will lose, unless the enemy is truly terrible with his Dunovs.

and Ruidin makes the best point: Go try it, find a team mate and test it out, I've tested so much against Paradoxnt that seeing Dunovs makes me cry blood. They can break an equal ammount of fleet points, they just won't neccessarily win you the game.

I'm at work, as I'm sure others are, but when I get out and I'm online, I'd be happy to test it out and show you. The test requires that we be equal in tech and levels for cap ships. An average Gwell should suffice, I'm sure Sovas can beat them at a star

With those numbers, you're better off throwing 50 LRMs at it. Much fewer facing problems, longer range, and with 50 of them, one shot will pretty much wipe out full shields.

But it probably wouldn't even take 50.

In any case, while stacking Dunovs might increase their survivability, you basically leave yourself pigeon-holed. Dunovs don't do very well against defenses, they'll spend all their antimatter regenning their shields and still not be able to keep up with 2-3 repair stations and some hangars/turrets. They won't be able to do anything *other* than regen each others shields, leaving them very predictable and without their other abilities. You see a fleet with 3 Dunovs + support? Forget the Dunovs, wipe out all his support and leave just the 3 Dunovs vs most of your fleet. He tries to use other abilities? Better for you, less antimatter to regen shields with Nothing says you have to kill the Dunovs first.

But if he has equal support forces and focuses on your support forces, then it is an even fight... except his Caps wont die, and yours will after all the frigates are swept away.

Go Try It. I found the only real way to deal with them, is just as you said: ignore, them, but take it a step further, as long as you have defenses they can't really go on the offense, and just go kill his planets spend your money on siege frigates and LRMs and hit multiple targets.

But we are not arguing that it is over powered from a Game-Victory basis. Just a Combat basis. There should be something of equal Fleet Point value that can beat two Dunovs in a fight, if you can't find me something that does, then it is by definition over-powered.

Again just make the shield regen not work on Dunov's- the only people who lose on this are people who want to use an extreme and unbalanced combo.

Tonight maybe Ill find someone and I will try 4 Desolators against 3 Dunovs and see if that cracks them... if it doesn't Ill bet 2 cant stand up to 4. But thats getting ridiculous.

Possibly Depends on fleet makeup, target priorities, etc. If you leave his Dunovs alone, and he leaves your capitals alone, depending on what capitals you have you can decimate his support fleet while his Dunovs really won't be able to do that much to yours.

The main problem with the Dunovs is that they're so so predictable. When you see one, you basically know it's there to pump shields. They kill stuff because they can last a long time, that's about it. And while you're leaving his Dunovs alone, you can have your own continually zap them with the antimatter drain. If he decides to focus on your Dunov, you buy yourself plenty of time to take out all of his support while still being able to deplete his Dunovs' antimatter stores.

I'm not denying that a few Dunovs can survive an incredibly long time, but that's pretty much all they can do. The logic that you should be able to beat them in the same amount of fleet points is inherently flawed, because in 1v1 (40 fp vs 40 fp) this kind of balance doesn't exist. Some ships have no hope of winning against others.

It's inelegant because it is, in effect, a hack -- an exception made with no reason aside from this combo popping up. Assuming it's overpowered (an assessment I'm not disputing at this point, as I haven't had the time to try it), I'd much prefer a solution that leaves the combo in place (as it seems a completely reasonable tactic!), but brings its effectiveness down to the rest of the playing field -- possibly an antimatter cost tweak. I don't see how the tactic is 'seriously odd' whatsoever. Might be odd that it's *so* powerful, but the concept is just fine

Agreeing with you on this one, a much more elegant 'solution' (if one is needed, and I'm still not convinced it is, simply because other capital ship combos can pull off much crazier stunts) would be to increase the antimatter cost and/or the cooldown time. Then this tactic would still be viable, just not for as long.

Then you risk making the Dunov allot less useful as its intended role: Support ship for your Other Capitals.

My solution leaves that alone, Regardless, I don't care, I'm more concerned with getting A Fix as opposed to My Fix,

Annatar- I'm not saying Any equal Fleet Supply should beat them, just A SINGLE one.

2 Sovas is as close as you get, and generally speaking they still lose. Find me Any combination at the same fleet supply. nothing should be invincible in straight normal fighting to Every other combination.

We havn't tested everything, but the most likely ones which we have been talking about simply don't work in practice. In a real game there are allot more variables, so its not like this is the biggest problem in the world, but its a pretty glaring issue that needs redress.

An equal ammount of LRMS wont work, No capital ship combo works, Cobalts dont work, right there we have eliminated all of the early game options of equal supply. Maybe 4-5 Kodiaks can do it? I doubt it, and frankly a tier 9 solution for a tier 1 option is not balanced either.

Don't take my word for it, go play some tests. Its boring but its worth knowing.


(we must define game balance elegance differently, in my view a fix that changes stats is so rudimentary and obvious as to be the exact opposite of elegant. My solution pinpoints the exact problem, since we don't hear people screaming about 1 Dunov and 1 other capital ship, I assume that is working, so why risk breaking that if we don't have to?)

And then people buy the game, and wonder "Um, okay, what makes Dunovs so special that it's the only ship in the game that can't be targeted by another Dunov's shield restore.....". It's a very crude 'fix', and one that makes absolutely no sense out of context of this issue.



Not at all. If simply the antimatter cost changes, they still restore the same amount of shields at the same intervals, but they just become more dependent on antimatter and can't keep it going for as long as now. This doesn't lessen their role as support ships at all, only makes it so they can't outlast attacks for *as* long.



The same number of Dunovs, then. If he focuses on shield restore, focus yours on antimatter drain. Problem solved

My main problem with this whole thread is that you're taking one ship combination only, and completely ignoring all other possible combinations. 3 Antoraks can negate 7-9 other capitals with proper micromanagement. That doesn't seem 'overpowered' to you? Does that mean they need to be nerfed? 3 Sovas can lay down 9 missile pods and deploy up to 24 squadrons from the safety of the edge of the grav well. 3 Vasari carriers can create 9 extra enforcers (their Kodiak analog, 98 fleet points worth!) out of thin air, as well as free bomber squads. A few Vasari battleships can level a fleet worth of frigates by stacking their ultimate. What about all those combos? Should they all be nerfed because they are powerful and useful?

This is exactly the whole rock/paper/scissors debate that we've had ages ago. Once you start creating clear counters to specific situations, all the tactical options go out the window.

Great the only counter for an extreme tactic is the same thing.

- As to game balance- like I said there is a very easy explanation: The transmitter for the energy transfer is too sensitive and would overload and break if the ship recieved such a powerful burst as it istelf is sending out.

Why cant the Dunov cast the ability on itself Hmmmmmm? Same Reason.

In addition: If the Dunov cannot keep the shield up for as long, the support ROLE isn't affected, I wasn't trying to say it was. The Support VALUE is. It might no longer be worth using. My solution leaves an the existing balance mathematically untouched. That being said, I don't know that the current Dunov regen is balanced period. So please feel free to suggest toning it all down, but don't tell me my fix is crude, its precise, easy to explain, and avoids the slippery slope of stat-changing. Which you can never ever reach a 'perfect' balance with, and people will always argue that it is too little or too much here or there.

But everyone Might agree that the 2 Dunovs regenning each other is a problem. My way removes the problem and does absolutely nothing else, no possible side effects. Yours does not, as the overall abillity of the Dunov to support other ships is now diminished in its value. Less time regenning because of less anti-matter or higher cool-down will still diminish effectiveness in battles.

Whatever happens, I think something needs to be done as far as a fix to this. I am not a big fan of the "I WIN button" strategies because then everybody will use them. If you play multiplayer and your opponent has 2 Dunov's and you have 2 cap ships and you both have pretty equal support ships and your fleet will get destroyed by default, which strategy will you take?

I might suggest making the Dunov's damage less...

Not out of thin air, you need to have an enforcer in the first place, which takes a lot of research stations.

Also, about the dunovs, this combo should be severely limited if they need to chase anything through phase space, due to the AM loss with a jump.