Draginol Draginol

Consoles vs. PC Games: The writing is on the wall

Consoles vs. PC Games: The writing is on the wall

The future of retail and gaming

Historically the argument of PCs vs. Consoles as game machines was an artificial argument. The two appeals to very different demographics. Many gamers, such as myself, simply were not willing to tolerate playing games on a television. How can you go from playing at 1024x768 to what amounts to 512x384? (That's 1/4th the resolution).

But times are changing. More and more people are getting HDTV and many games are starting to support this. This trend definitely doesn't help the PC game market grow. And the statistics back that up. But there are still certain kinds of games that only make sense on the PC. They boil down to games that need a mouse or a keyboard.

  • Real Time Strategy Games
  • Turn based Strategy Games
  • First Person Shooters
  • Massive Multiplayer Games

I'm playing Knights of the Old Republic on the PC right now and it's painfully obviously that it was designed with a console in mind based on the annoying controls and inventory system. And the game suffers for it.

The issue isn't whether the PC game market will die. It won't. The issue is whether PC games will be able to keep up with console games from a production values point of view. The answer to that is sadly...no with a few exceptions. So let me illustrate this with a report from the year 2007.

By 2007 the only PC-only big budget games will be massively multiplayer games, which will be well on their way to becoming cross platform to consoles. First person shooters (Duke Nukem Forever won't be out yet though) and the occasional RTS. And RTS, btw, won't be considered "big budget" anymore either by that point. With DirectX 9 or later, you can actually create your own pretty decent 3D engine.  Give me a team of 10 people (5 programmers, 5 artists) and I'll give you a Warcraft III clone in 18 months that has better graphics.  Warcraft III, of course, didn't have all the advantages that came into being with the more recent DirectX's so it's not that we're smarter, it's that it's gotten easier.

What this means though, from a retail point of view, is that when you go into the store to buy a game, it will be totally dominated by console games with a tiny area for PC games that will have (Wait for it) some sort of RTS, the first person shooter, the MMORPG, and a few other popular PC games that are either cross platform or fall into some unique category.

This, of course, is what PC advocates fear. But I'm afraid it's inevitable. It's not that the PC market is dying. It's not and it's annoying when people try to argue that. The problem is that retailers can make more money on console games than PC games because console games have been growing in sales much faster than PC games have.

Why Console Games are taking over retail

When I was a kid, my game machine was a Commodore 64. After the Atari 5200 and Colecovision's of the world died off, the console  market was gone. Then one day Nintendo introduced the NES but it didn't really matter because they couldn't remotely compete with computers yet in any important category. Gamers were willing to put up with the pain of freeing up more of that last 384K of "Upper memory" to get Wing Commander to work. They were willing to tolerate Ultima VI's annoying proprietary pseudo-OS.  They were willing to put up looking through the user manual of Power Monger to look up the copy protection key every freaking time they wanted to play. There wasn't really an alternative.

Eventually Windows and CD-ROMs made life on the PC easier. And it was good. For awhile. When the Playstation was released consoles started to get more competitive. But they still couldn't hold a candle to the PC in many areas. Outside crummy arcadey games, now in quasi-3D, the consoles were still not very appealing.

But now, even I have a console. Sure, Nintendo gave me one for free for helping them create a Nintendo Desktop (our non-game side of the business) but I do play it now. I've bought games for it. The latest generation of consoles have graphics that are "good enough". And with HDTV and the next-gen of consoles looming, they are poised to overtake or at least be equal to the latest/greatest PC games in visual quality.

And they already outsell most PC games.  So what are the reasons for this? Why not just keep using a PC for games? Why are developers moving to consoles?

  1. PCs are still relatively painful to use. The typical Windows user's computer barely boots. Come on, you know what I'm talking about. Many of you reading this are someone's "computer bitch" who goes over to their friends and neighbors houses to "fix" their computers. You get over there and find that 50+ spyware, DDOS clients, and other crap are being loaded on start-up. That Internet Explorer is so full of spam toolbars that you can barely see the page and the desktop is covered with icons.  And then you get the game and have to install it.  My Knights of the Old Republic took 30 minutes to install on my brand new Dell 2.8 GHz machine. Compare that with just putting in a CD and having it work.
  2. Copy Protection. Someone on Quarter To Three actually had a good solution to this. But it's not generally utilized.  Forcing people to have the CD in the drive negates the one major advantage PC games have - that you install them on the hard drive.  If I'm on-line, I shouldn't have to have the CD in the drive. Just have it contact some master server to "activate" it automatically. If they aren't on the net then sure, have the CD be in the drive. But this way at least those in the majority would never have to mess with copy protection in any real way.  I wouldn't mind having to have the CD in the drive if I wasn't forced to install some 1 gig game to my hard disk before playing it.
  3. PERSONAL computers vs. PUBLIC televisions. My Game Cube can be played by my 3 year old son without any intervention from me. My 6 year old regularly plays Zelda on his own. But do I want these guys on my computer with their sticky hands? No way. And most people can't afford to have a "kid's computer" nor would they understand the logic of having one.
  4. Cost. The Game Cube is $99. A decent gaming rig is going to set you back $1000. Sure, you can do more with the computer but so what? If you're not doing games, a 5 year old PC will do most of the work that normal people do with a computer. This is almost certainly the biggest reason why consoles have gotten such huge numbers. How can you argue against $99 for a console that comes with games on it?

So then why are developers moving to writing for consoles?

  1. Numbers. That's pretty obvious. As the number of users on consoles grows, the demand grows and so go the developers.
  2. The rise of cross platform libraries like Renderware. Now it's much easier to write once and with some minor tweaks have your game on all 3 major game platforms.
  3. Life for the developer can be easier. If you're a game developer on the PC, you're in a tough land. Our company has a hit game, Galactic Civilizations. If you knew how little we make per unit sold at retail you'd cry. I know I am. Makes me want to just give it up and move to consoles myself. It is becoming incredibly difficult, nearly impossible, to make a retail-level PC-only game that isn't one of the huge genres (RTS, MMORPG, FPS) and not go broke. And even then, only the successful ones make any money. Let me be plain: If it were not for the fine print in our contract that allows us to sell Galactic Civilizations directly, not only would we not consider a sequel, we would have had to lay off our entire gaming side immediately. That's just how screwed up the system is for PC game developers right now. Let me put it this way: 100,000 units are expected to sell at retail world wide, total revenue from those retail sales is expected to be LESS than $400,000. That is less than the revenue we received from direct sales which sold less than 10% as many units. That's not a viable business model.
  4. Support. Tech support on a PC game is significantly higher than on a console where the games "just work".
  5. Piracy. It's not a huge deal on the PC but it is higher than it is on the console. My neighbor has a Game Cube. You think she's going to go onto some site and try to figure out how to pirate Game Cube games? She won't bother with PC games because of the previously mentioned "hassles".
  6. Difficulty in getting published. The "big" publishers are increasingly preferring to move to the model of only releasing a handful of huge titles per year rather than many smaller ones. There is a certain logic in that. Today, most expenses come from marketing, not development. If those marketing dollars can be focused on fewer games they can end up with bigger bang for the buck, in theory anyway.  As much as we'd love to have a mega publisher pick up a Galactic Civilizations II (assuming we could work something out where 100,000 units in sales translates into real revenue for us) we're not going to count on it.  We'll either have to look at doing it ourselves (the whole thing) or work something out with a smaller publisher where retail sales work out better for us.
  7. Support from the console maker. No one really cares if you make a PC game. But Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony care a lot if you make a cool game for their platform. Matching funds and other help are available to developers. There's nothing like that on the PC except in the increasingly rare cases where the publisher provides advances on royalties.

 PC Games in twilight? No.

Does this mean that PC gaming is doomed though? Not at all. But if PC gamers and developers want to continue buying and making PC games, some recognition of the changing reality is in order.

Electronic Purchasing. Yes. Sorry but PC gamers are going to have to stop bitching about the lack of diversity in games available at the local store. It ain't changing. There are lots of PC games in development and released each year that no one ever hears about because they are sold electronically. This is something we're trying to do with Drengin.net. The goal is to allow people to buy all the games or cherry pick the ones they want off of it. Think of it as iTunes for games except you have an option to also pay to access everything that's on there at 18 month increments. Over the next year, we hope to add a lot more games to the library but we've run into snags there which I'll bring up next.

Developers need realistic expectations. We thought it would be easy. We would talk to game developers whose games were already available on-line but had only sold a few copies. The 2002 winner of the Indie Games Festival sold <100 units of their game for instance.  So we would go out and try to bring games onto Drengin.net.  Suddenly though they wanted huge bucks for their game. 

Our standard deal was:

1) Non-exclusivity - you can sell it still on your own.

2) We'd give you a couple thousand dollars advance on royalties -- often more than the game had made total so far (I know that's hard to believe but it's true, most of these cool little games out there have sold only tiny numbers of units).

3) We would give you a royalty off of the total sales of Drengin.net for a set time period.

Number of third party games on Drengin.net so far: 0. Stardock's had to create all of the content so far which won't be sustainable long term. There'd be other snags. We'd get games that were basically early betas. The games we'd want to put on there have to be complete. They don't have to be huge or anything just complete.  Those with complete games would actually ask for hundreds of thousands of dollars in advance. It was unbelievable.  If something like this is going to succeed, some long term thinking is needed -- PC games need an iTunes for Gaming type mechanism where consumers can go and buy this stuff and get it right there and then and be able to access it from a central repository. By the end of this year, Drengin.net will have 4 pretty strong titles on it but realistically we need more than 20 for it to start getting to critical mass. (btw, if you're a developer with a good complete game, even if it's relatively small but still fairly original you can contact me at [email protected] ).

But more important than that, gamers will have to get over their fixation of buying boxed copies. If you are willing to only purchase PC games at the store, your options will be steadily decreasing. In the long term, electronic sales are the way to go.  We sell millions of dollars of software electronically each year -- Object Desktop and its components (the non-game version of Drengin.net -- even uses the same program manager Stardock Central). So we know it's doable.  But if PC gamers can't make that transition, the increasingly the only retail games they'll be able to purchase will be in those genres that the PC specializes in (RTS, FPS, MMORPG).

As a PC game developer, we're rapidly reaching a fork in the road. If we can make more selling 10,000 units direct where we don't have to make boxes, don't have to deal with nearly the tech support hassles, have less piracy issues, than selling 100,000 units at retail, then it doesn't take long to realize that maybe if we were on-line only we might "only" sell 20,000 copies instead of the 110,000 total but we'd make more than twice as much as we did the other way. The problem would be that it would be one less PC game on store shelves thus making console games appear even more successful. But I don't see many alternatives.

Of course, none of this is going to happen this year or next year. I'm speaking of the long run here. But console games clearly have a positive feedback cycle going. One that I see only accelerating.

143,128 views 53 replies
Reply #26 Top
I think one poster hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that PC games can be PATCHED easily while console games can not. Online connectivity has the potential of solving that little problem in the near future though.

In my opinion, in order for the console market to run the PC out of the game arena, the console will have to BECOME a PC. If you have a console that has a keyboard, mouse, hard drive, printer port, an internet connection, and an operating system that allows you to utilize the console for home office applications, you essentialy have a PC. What I think will happen in the next 10 years is that hardware and operating system standardization will allow you to play console games on your PC and PC games on your console.

My vision of the future is that you will be able to go into Best Buy and pick up an XBox III or Playstation IV for 200 bucks, plug it into your home theater system (with HDTV and 7.1 surround sound) and be able to play games, surf the net, or write a resume on it. The PC nuts (thats those of us who build or buy hot rod gaming machines) will still be able to build a PC and run the SAME GAMES on it. Essentialy, the "Console" will be a PC but one that cant be upgraded. 2 or 3 years down the road, you will shell out another 200 bucks for the next greatest console... or if your a PC guy, buy some upgrades for your current system. The trend is already started with Microsofts XBox. It uses DirectX for its graphics API and its operating system is probably based on the Windows kernel too.

Rob
Reply #27 Top
As far as im concern,the main problem with pc is the very same thing that made it take over the market to begin with: open architecture.20 different kind of video cards,chipset,memory..ect
The pc urgently needs to put in place standards,real standards and im not talking about dx9.
Until developers have a way to come up with pc games that actually work(without 1 or 5 patches),the console will continue to gain on the pc.
Lets face it im not gona shed 500$ to get that big video card that plays halo at full framerate when i can buy a brand new xbox WITH the game for the same price and still have enough money left to buy 1 or 2 other title...
Reply #28 Top
Rare level of bullsh*t. The guy obviously thinks he knows what hes talking about, which i cant agree with.
1. PC is about 10 times more advanced in tech terms, which will keep true gamers on that platform. I cant feel anything but sore for whomever will play Doom3 or HL2 on Xbox.
2. If you think WarCraft3 sells so good for its graphics, no wonder you cant earn from your Galactic something (which i barely heard of, btw).
3. About the price thing --- Yes, PC costs much more. But how about games? PC - 50$ (and its considered VERY expensive), Console - 60-70$. Not to talk about downloading the full games...

The only thing thats slowly
killing the PC market, is the developers themselves. Look at DeusEx2 demo for example - one of the biggest disapointments of the year imo. Lean buttons is too complicated for console dummies? So lets remove it! Action is too fast? Lets simplify it to 3 years old level. Hacking - console ppl cant type, so purple bar is enough. And dont forget the text size --- dear console users cant see that awfuly small text!!! What a crap... I'm NOT going to buy this game. Maybe, just maybe, download it, but not buy. PC gamers used for best. Not just good, but BEST. Sad that the dev's choose to ignore that lately... I'm downloading games, and i'm not ashame to admit it, cause most of them just dont deserve the money asked for. But not all of them. I got GroundControl,WC3, Diablo2, couple of DeltaForce, RedAlert2, MaxPayne,TotalAnnihilation, all of MechWarriors, StarCraft, Quakes, BaldursGate, original, and i'm going to get Doom3, GroundControl2, Quake4 original. The games that i know devs did their best for me.

Yes, PC games require much more work to make, but in return you got so faithful community, no console crap could stand next too (Fallout, ID software, Epic, BG1-2-2.5 NWN, Counter-Strike, Tribes). And those ppl will buy your games ALWAYS, provided you will make them with same dedication. As i see it, all those "Console taking the market, its unavoidable" articles is written only as lame excuses for not-so-talented devs, who maybe will succeed to sell their crap to console lamers, but have no chanse on PC, and by knowing it, they decided to run across.

With disrespect.
Reply #29 Top
Well, I am going to join the console team on this one. I was once a hardcore PC player. Purchased a game a week and finished them just as fast, however a couple readers above say the magic word "Patch" well, i have been burned way to many times on software that *1) wont install 2) wont work with my video drivers 3) copy protection thats so secure you cant even use the original disk* These hindering factors demand patches.

Now why do people like Rob say that patches are so damn good? Why is it that a company like Valve, or ID, or whomever can sell a product that is broken for $60? I go to Best Buy and buy a DVD player, but it doenst need a laser added, or a future remote addon. It comes in the box, it works from the beginning. patching is bullshit. 100% bullshit. No game should ever have to be patched. NEVER.

I will admit that I have played a few console games that have had their problems as well. But seeing as that Valve has released 12 patches for half-life, Warcraft has 9, Diablo 2 has 10 patches...i can honestly say that 99% of the games I have played on console are 100% problem free.

Now the resolution aspect. I will give PC gamers that one. PC gamers also dont have the ability to play on a 48" widescreen TV while sitting on a leather lazy boy recliner surrounded by a 5.1 Bose audio system pumping 1000watts of dolby sound. That my friend, i will never give up to play at 1600x1200. Never.

Xbox Live ownz you. If you have every experianced a game of Project Gotham 2 with people from all over the world, or traded pot shots down a hallway in Rainbow 6 3, then you know what I mean. All the rest of yall really should check it out. You will be amazed. MS did online gaming on the conosle right. on their first try.

Consoles will become more like PCs. And PC gamers will gravitate....PC gaming will slowly become more obsucre games, back the sharware days of Doom2.

Just my 2 cents.

I may be back with more rambling. But honestly, PC gamers need to spend more time with their console brothers to see what all the fuss is about.
Reply #30 Top
Four Reasons Why Consoles Cannot Replace PCs:

1) Storage
2) User Interface
3) Controls
4) Depth

There are two more, but consoles are showing signs of eventually overcoming them:

5) Patching
6) Community


Storage is the biggest item. The hard drive is not replaceable -- except by another hard drive. If a console includes a hard drive, it is no longer really a console-n-cartridge device any more, but a PC in another package. Hard drives allows users to do so much more. I can have as many saved games for my games as my space allows. I can sort and store them to my taste. I can take screen shots, and manipulate those for upload to the internet. I can write about the game, my strategies, my thoughts, my gaming experiences, and save all of these writings. I can keep copies of old patches, flip between windows and do other things while playing. I can take a break from work, which I do on the same machine, to play a quick game. No console would ever be worth my time unless it had equal storage power, in which case it would be a PC anyway, so what's the point? The previous poster, Rob, made the same point, and I agree with him. The future most likely lies in a marriage of console and PC, for them to become compatible. And, sadly, he's probably right that Microsoft will lead the way and make it happen.

User Interface includes I/O devices and monitoring device. HDTV? No thanks. Not for my computing needs. With my eyesight, I need even better performance than HDTV would provide. I'm one of those guys who paid as much for his monitor as he did for the rest of his PC combined. Consoles couldn't hope to touch that performance aspect unless, again, they became a PC in another package anyway. Mouse needs a flat surface? See previous comment. No way am I moving my gaming away from a desk, where I can sit in an ergonomic executive swivel chair comfortably for hours at a time, to go sit ON MY COUCH, for god's sake, and be squinting at my TV, having other people wanting to watch TV, bustling in, walking between me and the screen. I'm a diehard trackball hater. Real mouse or forget it, and that too requires a desk. My desk can hold a stack of CD's, pen and paper, additional controllers, and most importantly, is set up to support continuous hours of use. A console would have to become a PC to replace my PC.

3) Controls. I tried console gaming a decade ago, with friends who had both PC and console. We had a name for what happened to our hands after an hour on the console: Sega Thumb. OUCH. Are you kidding me? Those crappy little thumbpad hack-jobs are done on the cheap, to keep costs down, not to provide solid control or comfortable use. Maybe kids who grew up on those crappy things have developed some kind of immunity or tolerance for their low quality, but for me? No thanks. Give me real controls. Brad mentioned mouse and keyboard, but forgot the joystick. A top notch PC joystick has five axes: the stick has X and Y, like the console control thumbpad, but that's where it ends for the console, just like the old Atari 2600 joysticks. The PC stick has a twist, adding a Z axis, plus a thumb hat that amounts to a console thumbpad all by itself. Well, fancy console controls with two thumbpads can simulate that, so they can get up to four axes, but they still miss that fifth on the twist. PLUS, the joystick plants on my desk (again missing for the console) while my other hand has access to the keyboard. Consoles can't come close to matching that quality or number of controls. Console games cannot live up to the depth available to immersive joystick games. The mouse and keyboard are not dispensible, either. If you give a console a modern joystick, a mouse and a keyboard, put it on a desk with a high res monitor, and put a hard drive into it... you've got a PC!

Depth. Between storage, interface, and control, there is depth available to PC game makers. Depth that cannot be reproduced on the console. This isn't about "what PC games do better". PC's can do everything better, except simplify. That's the strength of the console: simplification. Plug-n-Play, delivered. Without storage, though, longer games are not possible. Without length, there is less depth to the game. When it comes down to it, aren't consoles the inheritor of the arcade game, rather than the PC game?

The arcades did not die out from the consoles in the 80's. They died out when PC's brought a more compelling game experience, with depth, to the market. Arcade games used to offer more depth than home console games: better controls, better graphics, and a sense of wider community, of competition, because of the high score boards. We paid as much for those as we did for the gaming itself. Posting the high score, or competiting to beat it, was a big deal to most arcade gamers. Consoles couldn't deliver that because they lacked storage! Atari 5200 and Colecovision were dinosaurs before they were even released. They thought they were capturing the essence of the arcade experience but in fact failed to do so. It was the Commodore 64 and ilk that finally took down the arcades, with the "IBM Compatible PC" to finish them off for keeps.

Have consoles finally caught up a bit? Yes. With internet connectivity, and access to mods and patches, and limited storage capacity, they have recaptured some of the bare functionality the arcade games used to have, which consoles of old never had, and so they took back some of the market that had, for years, gone over to the PC. Yet the depth is still missing, and will continue to be absent unless the consoles become PCs anyway.

The internet breathed new life into PC games in the mid and late 90's, but at the same time also sucked the life right out of PC games. What a nasty combination! Gamers, for a while, were so juiced by the increasing capabilities of PC hardware, they were willing, for a time, to go ahead and buy a new computer every two years, just to have the latest, to stay in the loop. That has faded out now, and PC game makers need to find their way to understand the new reality. PC's for a time were the only game in town. They enjoyed both the support of the depth-seekers and the eye-candy addicts. Now the eye-candy-addicts can get enough eye candy from console games. So why, oh please tell me why, are PC game makers abandoning the depth seekers who are their loyal customer base, to go chasing the almighty dollar they think lies with the eye candy seekers?

A console can download patches, but it can't allow for writing and posting feedback to the internet unless it turns itself into a PC. And any console that does not support patching will run head long into what someone else above pointed out: when they release a broken or incomplete game, they can't fix it. That's where attempting to put depth into a console game could backfire hugely. If the games they release are mostly broken and unfixable, there will eventually be a huge exodus back to the PC, if not outright, then by some console maker making a PC in a console's package, and attracting the lion's share of console business by offering some of the strengths of the PC on their console.


The PC game industry has lost its way, by and large. A lot of clones and formulas, as marketing jerks take over, as the soul of the industry has sold out, allowed itself to be dominated by trying to recreate the next version of the previous hit game, instead of nurturing creativity. The business model sucks for developers, as Brad aptly points out, but that is largely because so many small developers started up, the publishers had a buyer's market. And now that "production values" have raised the ante, a lot of good games that would have been made ten years ago are not made today.

I, at least, hunger for good games. Eye candy in some measure is fine, but how does the game play? Is it challenging? Is it fun? How much of my time playing is spent on strategy or execution, vs how much is make-work and tedium? Patching is not even an option on today's games. It's an absolute necessity. A good game needs a year's worth of patches to reach completion, and that's if the design team is skilled in weeding out the feedback they get, sorting the wheat from the chaff of player requests and bug reports. GalCiv has been a good game from the start, but six months in, still has a slew of issues to clean up in patching to deliver on all of its original promises. Gamers will stick with a company who sees that process through to the end. They won't stick with companies who promise too much and then do not deliver. That has been most game makers in recent years. They want to cut corners and expect us to keep on buying. Not going to happen.

I know a lot of gamers, and almost all the gamers I know are sitting around playing old games, polished versions that saw a lot of patching or the rare spectacular gem that needed only a couple of patches, and waiting. Waiting on the slew of crap coming out to be interrupted by something that bows down at the altar of fun, not the altar of eye candy and gimmickry. Word of mouth makes sales. I've brought a few sales to GalCiv, because I have a reputation among my friends. They know if a game holds my attention for any length of time, it's a gem. And I have friends I rely on for the same function. Somebody we collectively know will try almost every game with any degree of promise, and then comes the review. If it's positive, a few more will try the game and add their opinions. If the word is unanimous, almost everyone will buy. We are one heck of a smart pack of shoppers, and nobody puts one over on the whole lot of us.

Somebody here described 4X games as a niche market. Funny, that niche was pretty wide a decade ago, when the top games coming out were Civilization, Xcom and Master of Orion. What? All the people who bought those games dried up and blew away? I don't think so. We're still out here. Look at the anticipation there was for Master of Orion III. The customers are there. It's up to the game makers to GET IT RIGHT for a change. GalCiv could inherit the kingdom if Brad plays his cards right. :)

The PC game industry is on the decline because game makers have largely lost touch with the needs and wants of their core customers. Instead of filling the various niches and making decent money, they all chase the blockbusters in pursuit of the dollars of customers they view as a large flock of sheep to be fleeced instead of intelligent consumers. And on that score, I believe even Brad has it wrong here. I don't know what writing he's reading on the wall, but we must not be looking at the same wall. I for one will never buy a console, yet some day, many of those console gamers of the new generation will grow up and discover the richer, deeper world of PC games. They will graduate from arcade action to the thinking man's games. Plenty of money to be made off of adults, even though we have less time for the gaming than kids do. The very fact that we do have less time makes it critical that we get games that are polished, fun to play, and engaging. Substitutes and pretenders need not apply. We've banded together out of necessity; we listen to word of mouth and only pay for quality goods. Yet we WILL pay, and gladly. The market is out there, hungering, waiting, hoping.

And yet, not all of us have high speed internet. I don't, and you can forget me downloading anything over 10MB. I won't do it. I don't have the time to waste on that. For me to buy software, I've got to get a CD. Period. I'll support Stardock with direct purchase from now on, so they get the full profit, but I need a CD for every purchase. And as some pointed out, outside the USA, consumers have other concerns, too, when trying to buy American software. Then there's the fact that I now get an Object Desktop component loading on my PC as startup, when I have not purchased or desired that product. Part of the Stardock auto-downloader? I'm not sure. It caused one of my other programs to stop working, though, and sometimes interferes with yet more programs on boot-up. There's no excuse for that. It's sloppy. Computer users don't trust software companies. The wide variety of hardware configurations and drivers is a huge obstacle for designers, I realize, and I don't have easy answers for that. But every customer has their own considerations and concerns, and we all have a breaking point at which we stop supporting a product or a company. In my view, if Drengin.net is to succeed, they've got to do a good job of finding out what customers need and want and delivering that. Customers will go to the best overall deal. There is a huge dearth of good games on the market. GalCiv is a rare exception. It's a good game. That's why I'm here. That issue with the Object Desktop component is a minor drawback. So is the as-yet unpolished state of GalCiv itself. Brad and Stardock have shown a lot of promise, though, and seem to be more in line with my needs and wants, overall, than their competitors.

And yet the key difference for me in supporting Stardock is the intent to finish their game. Many game designs have a lot of potential, if work on the game continues after release. No game nowadays can possibly be all it can be upon release. When thousands of players get their hands on the game and finally play it, its shortcomings and flaws will be exposed in a way even the best beta testing cannot find. Therefore, the only companies who will ever again reach a fully polished game of modern depth and complexity are those fully committed to ongoing or occasional patches, to redress new issues turned up by the players over time, allowing at least a year for all such issues to emerge. Commitment to patching is, for me, the key ingredient. Lack thereof is likewise the fatal flaw. I won't ever again buy from companies who drop a lemon in my lap, take my money and run. And will consoles ever match that requirement? I doubt it. I don't even own a console and I do not expect that to change.


- Sirian
Reply #31 Top
I agree with most of what had been said, but he forgot to mention that size does not matter. You can develop 10,000 console games to every 10 computer games, and the overall quality, immersion, longevity, and entertainment factor is still about the same. Why? Because console controls don't have enough buttons. Until there's a controller that's equivalent to the mouse/keyboard combo, you'll never have the depth of a pc game. The best interface in the world cannot make of for the lack of buttons because there will be too mcuh shit on the screen... and us gamers only want to see the game world.... not menus. That's all I have to say about it... and that's all that needs to be said at this point in time.
Reply #32 Top
You guys think that patching is hard?? Maybe you people who have NO IQ and blame comptuers cause you don't know how to patch things.. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM.. with patches.. just downlaod teh file and done..... simple... You can't run a game? Maybe try updating yoru damn drivers, you dumb people, gettinv viruses? maybe and antivirus works.. I been using PC's for while and I find it way better..
Storage is almost the number one thing, load times are freaking much faster than loading from a cd rom drive.. it's so stupid.. I can have better resolution adn better graphics than the damn console. $500 for an video card??? Nobody tells you to freakin get the newst one that jsut came out.. it's call waiting for a while.. till the price the down.. nobody tells you to get at an future shop.. and get it at an local computer shop.. Dumbasses...I don't even have an high end computer and I can play HAlo on the PC with nice graphics, with fast framerate..
Reply #33 Top
I disagree PCs will still be dominant for some time
Something PC games have over consoles is mods for game etc.
Take operation Flashpoint for example - its heaviliy modded by the community and is now a pretty decent war simulator thanks to all the great mods and misions made by the community
NWN is a great RPG - how the hell are people on a console going to make new modules and new haks etc on a console
ALot of games out there exist cause they are fun and because they have a big community supporting through modding etc.
ALso i only have a 56 k modem and i download tons of mods without using ADSL - sweet as
Untill consoles reach this stage of high data storage and very high res Tvs etc PCs will always dominate if not stay at least 50% of the market share.
Also as mentioned prior the yonger generation are more into consoles- they chuck a game in and off they go
they cant be bothered with hassles - are the new younger gen lazy? or just after quick basic fun in a fast paced world where there is little time?
Older users and some youngers one prefer the PC for custominisation of there games and unit we all know.
Its like Cars - some people just buy cars and use em for transports sake
while others modify them and get more out of them
Its quite easy to see there will always be different markets fior both and a requirement for both for some time
As they are catering to different types of users
I also think the market at present is going thru changes as has been noted - the PC game market was so flooded the last 5years prior with too many games being released too quickly with too many bugs i think people went over to consoles possibly beacuse of that and the problems they were having with PCs and ease of use of consoles.
Upgrades are the main bugger for PCs
The most I have gone is 3.5 years from one upgrade to the next
although pc prices have dropped its still expensive to buy a new pc one has to admit
Although pcs are cheaper they guzzle power like no ones business

Mind u the same can be said as to consoles.
They seem to change every 3 years as well.
Ive found console games more pricey than PC game satv times and once played console games have little replay value and little if none modification possible.
Reply #34 Top
I'd first like to thank Draginol for starting this huge reflection on PC vs Console. It has awaken the gaming passion, wich is very good for the entire gaming community.

I'm an all-over PC fan for one simple reason: I need a computer to work so why not use it to play as well!!! As simple as it seems, I use a scanner, a printer, a camera, a keyboard, a mouse, a microphone, etc. How the heck could i be using all this on a console lying in front of my couch...? Some of you could argue that i should play on the console and keep my pc for work but damn it, i pay'd a lump of cash for having the possibility to do paper work for school or office, editing homevideos, creating images and audio for all kind of presentations, etc., the least i could want is, with a good video card (not the top notch 500$ card) play entertaining and engaging games (i'm not really the arcade type gamer... It help when choosing between console and pc).

It's also interesting to read people pointing out that console are cheaper then pc and putting up pc guys (and gals) should try the cube on a wide screen HDTV with 7.1 surround sound on their "in your ear" quality speakers in a special isolated room (i imagine) so you can jack the volume at 1am (when most of us play) without bothering anyone... But (oh irony) if you (assuming its you) put'd the same money you pay'd for all of this on a pc, I can't imagine the experience you would'v lived!!! Think about this, there are video card with line-out for the tv...

All the gamers are not "hardcore" but they all want the same thing, great games!
Reply #35 Top
"Now the resolution aspect. I will give PC gamers that one. PC gamers also dont have the ability to play on a 48" widescreen TV while sitting on a leather lazy boy recliner surrounded by a 5.1 Bose audio system pumping 1000watts of dolby sound. That my friend, i will never give up to play at 1600x1200. Never." - SHAYNE

Um that entire line is total bs. Bose doesnt make anything that compares to 1000watts (they use the same materials as optimus speakers which btw can be found at RadioShack for a fraction the cost) and a $200 dollar 5.1 pc system will provide the same if not better sound quality. If i want to use ugly tv viewing as my game interface ill use my tv out.
Reply #36 Top
Another case in point about patching: Morrowind is a very very buggy game that locks up and freezes alot. There were also many problems with the bartering system and so forth. Xbox gamers had to wait for a almost fullprice expansion pack just to have the bugs fixed and a small amount of innovation of the interface such as the bartering system. Now i know that the expansion pack came out with the 2 bonus towns or whatever but the fact remains that the gamers basically had to buy an entire new game just to properly play the first one.
Reply #37 Top
Here my take on it (I'm too lazy to read all the above responses so I'm sorry if I repeat anything).

Gaming rigs generally last longer. That $2000 computer will last you a good 4-8 years and you can upgrade it whereas a new console comes out every 2-3 years and not only is it $300+ but then you also factor in new games (unless its something that's backwards compatible), new controlers, new memory cards, etc etc. For a computer, an extra stick of ram might be all you need which (at todays prices) you can get a 512 stick for under $100. The other plus for computers now is the social aspect. It's hella fun either shooting Joe Buddie in the heat and then "saying" "Hahahaha!" or yelling it through you're mic. And as far as I know, consoles don't have lan parties yet. That is a downside of computers in that it's basically a one player deal whereas you can play Halo on the Xbox with more than one person for an extra $25 (or whatever another controller costs).

As far as CDs go, well yes, you have to have it in your computer but you also do for a console. And for a console you are either lucky (have a system with a built in HD or cartridges) or have to buy a HD and/or memory card(s). The main target of consoles in my opinion is the pop in, action starts type crowd. Sure, there are plenty of GOOD games that require some though (I admit, most PC RPGS have nothing on their console brethern) but overall its either for multiplayer or a quick action fix. For the PC, it's either mutliplayer or a tactics-strategy type game. This later catagory could be an RTS (they have nothing on us this time) or some of the more tactical first person shooters.

Another plus of the PC is demos and shareware. You can get on the web, start a download, do some homework or balence your checks or whatever you do, and when you're done with that, you can play a game you've never tried before. And if it sucks, it gets deleted. And if it is the best thing since sliced bread, you buy it and are not dissapointed. Yes, most consoles have "demo discs" but they are not as available as those on computers.

I think it mainily comes down to how many people you want to play with. If you want to be playing with 30 strangers (or friends) online or at a lan party, the computer is your stomping ground. If you'd perfer an intimate match with a couple buddies over for the night, grab a console. Competition will only make each of them better in the long run.
Reply #38 Top
Sorry bout that, my spelling was pretty much shot to hell =D

Try to make it out if you can =D
Reply #39 Top
I really feel for companies like Stardock.

Three days ago I never heard of them. I needed a new game to play, went to Amazon.com to see what was selling, was in the strategy section, and came across Galactic Civilizations. Went to its Web site. Saw I could download the game. It cost considerably more than the retail version.

If I was your 'average Joe' I would have waited until I was next in an EB or something and bought it, or, more likely, talked myself out of it - I have several games to play.

But as it was 4 a.m. and I have a credit card and was bored, I bought it. It took forever to download (I have 3 MB DSL) and if electronic distribution is the way of the future, companies have to realize delivery has to be fast; slow just won't do.

Turns out I enjoyed the game a lot and have already reccommended it to friends. So Stardock wins, sort of - if you consider finding its game by luck after acting on my own indirect initiative to seek it out, overcoming a percieved price barrier and falling back on what was essentially an impulse buy to endure a mediochre delivery experience - as winning.

I turn on the television, I see ads for consoles and console games. I go see a movie, I see ads for consoles and console games before the film starts. I drive in my car, I see transit advertising for consoles and console games.

A company like Stardock, or even its publisher, Strategy First, cannot compete in that marketing game. They cannot foot the bill. I'd bet it'd like to. I'd bet it'd also like to have multiple mirrored servers for it's download service, with unlimited scalable bandwidth etc. to ensure the electronic distribution model 'delivered' on its promises. But again, I'd bet it cannot foot that bill. Stardock would also like to avoid distribution's stocking fees, MDF funds, shelf and placement fees, mirrored pricing and all the other costs that come with dealing in the retail channel, but the market isn't ready to walk away from retail, so neither can it.

Essentially they are fighting a losing battle from the get-go. This makes putting food on the table difficult for what are likely a bunch of people who just want to make great games (and other software).

The technology differences of consoles vs. PCs just complicates the age-old problem of supply and demand - companies do business to make money, those companies that make money succeed, and making money and being successful in this case means catering to the mass market, not the niche market. Consoles win.

I have never owned a console. I believe PC games are more enjoyable than console games. But as a market minority I realize my gaming options will narrow over time until one day, the money in the console market will produce something revolutionary that will draw my attention away from the PC game market forever. Sure, I may be 60 and someone will be pre-chewing my food, but it will happen.

So I feel for companies like Stardock.
Reply #40 Top
I have a 2.53 GHz PC with a 9700 Pro and play consoles almost exclusively these days. Go figure. Just lots more variety and the ability to play with friends when they are actually at my home (i.e. not just over the faceless internet). Now, I'm awaiting HL2 and games like World of Warcraft just as much anyone, but there are new great console games every week and, thus, they take up most of my time. A couple of years ago I went through a "PC" phase where I played Diablo II and Unreal Tournament religiously, but I can seem to find the same interest in any of the current PC games. Just FYI, the games I'm currently playing are Project Gotham 2, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, and Jak II.
Reply #41 Top
> Electronic Purchasing. Yes.

As long as CDs and stuff are available, 'cause speaking as someone still on a modem, downloading a 650MB game really isn't going to happen...

To the guys saying "with a PC you can't view it on a X inch TV with surround sound" - actually, that's fairly easy. Get a video card with TV out. Look on the back of your sound card - you should be able to just plug the audio out into your amp somewhere. (If you don't have an amp, it ain't much of a surround system.)

As for the rest of it, both have their place, depending on the game, person, and their mood. Some games were ported badly to PC, some games were ported badly to console. Stuff happens. :)
Reply #42 Top
One poster asked why I thought patches were a "Good" thing. Here is my answer. Software is getting more and more complex every year and games in particular are getting more complex. The more complex a game is, the longer it takes to debug. Its not a simple matter either. If a game is twice as complex as its predecessor (sp?), it took approximately 4 times longer to debug and test it. Therefore, the chances of finding ALL the bugs and squashing them is small. In fact, even getting MOST of the bugs out is a monumental feat. Add in deadlines and budgets and you end up even worse off. Console games MUST be almost perfect out of the box. They cannot be patched. Given a fixed budget and time constraints, the developers will have to choose to make less complex and compelling games. PC games have the luxury of being patched so developers can push the envelope a little, knowing they can fix some of the minor issues in a later patch. Or, as is commonly done now, a release day patch. Now this doesnt excuse the PC developers from making totaly unplayable games or from trying to squash as many bugs as possible BEFORE releasing, it just gives them a safety net. Console programmers cant afford to be that risky so they go with a safer, more conservative approach and make sure thier games are simple enough to be tested and debugged completely within the time and budget given them.

Rob
Reply #43 Top
I bought a console last Chrismas... I wasa gift for my girlfriend, she is very much into light gun games and the PS2 has a few (I bought all 6 of them). I tought that I would end up using the console myself since I am an avid game player on the PC... Well since I bought the console I have bought exactly 0 other games for it. I have tried buying games but so far NOTHING in console game even remotly appeals to me. I play TBS, RTS, FPS RPG, MMORPG, MMOFPS and so far I find that everything out on the console is simple, has but on dimention and can be done better on the PC. I am sure that as technology changes, like the XBOX, consoles will be more PC like and be able to take on the PC market better, but until then, I will keep upgrading my PC in oder to find the quality games that are so lacking on the console side.
Reply #44 Top
I agree with the basis arguement of the article that PC gaming is losing out to the console market. One only needs to visit their local software store and see the shrinking shelf space for PC games. I remember seeing the same trend for Apple II and Amiga computers back in the day until those platforms simply dried up and died. I see the same trend starting again now with PCs. Since I am person who enjoys a single-player strategy and RPG games my selection of good games to play has diminished greatly in the past three years. Game developers are making games which offers the best chance to make a profit which is the console market. So I have tried store demos of the latest and greatest console games and they fail to stimulate me. I grown out of the acrade phase in my life thanks to many rolls of quaters and the Atari 2600. I need something to challenge my brain not my hand-eye coordination. I can only hope that the console kids of today will one day want something more cerebral than Super mario 19 and Street Fighter vs Godzilla. After all how many times can the developers repackage the same game play elements before the console users grow tired of it?
Reply #45 Top
What the hell are you talking about? Your article is the biggest waste of text I've ever seen. "By 2007 the only PC-only big budget games will be massively multiplayer games..." WHAT THE HELL??? Where did you get this fact? You just think you're some big authority on it and make this claim. Go ahead but in 2007 I'll be laughing at you when technology has improved and PC games are REALLY good. Right now they are amazing and on the verge of some really great things that consoles can NEVER EVER do. The simple fact of the matter is computers have more processing power and better technology which allows for better graphics and more detailed games. Also games that are bigger/longer. Not to mention the internet. Of course consoles are starting to have online play, BUT 1. it costs money. Who the hell wants to pay for internet for both their computer and their console? NO ONE. Most companies are whores so they are going to want to make money so of course you just won't be able to easily use the same interent for both your console and the computer. Even if you can, there will be some stupid shit like a fee to play on the game company's servers or something dumb like that. The only solution that might exist is something like a MMPOG on a console that's compatible with an MMPOG for the computer. Other than that, I I I highly doubt the internet for consoles will ever take off. MY opinion, no facts there. However given the history of consoles and interent I think you might have to agree on that one. Look at SEGA.... SEGA dude SEGA. That had internet through a modem. Come on. That failed like everything else that tried to have internet. Like Dreamcast, etc. Even though Dreamcast's features were WAY beyond its time, unfortunately it failed.
The simple fact that everyone is beginning to have a computer is the simple answer to this debate. Everyone is beginning to have a computer for internet, for education, for work, etc. It's EXTREMELY simple to just buy games for it too. A console is fun for kids at a party that all sit together by the TV. That's IT. You can't do that quite as easily with a computer obviously because there's not 4 controllers coming out of it and most people's monitors aren't exactly TVs or even in front of a couch. That's it. Period. You could write your article in a paragraph dude. Hell, I'll sum it all up in one sentence.

In my opinion (and you should put this down cuz you aren't an expert nor did you site any research or even articles opinion or fact) I think that consoles will never advance to the level of computer gaming because it lacks features and versatility that computers have; however, they will still be on the market because it's more social for 4 people to sit in front of a TV and play a game together rather than playing on their own computers from remote locations (or all the computers in one room which involves awkward transportation which goes along with this distance problem).
Reply #46 Top
I don't either fading away at all but melding together into one.
I have Linux running on my Xbox right and it plays Xbox games and a Linux Kit is avalible for PS2. That means that those consoles double as personal computers.
While my Xbox doesn' support 3d excelleration (yet) in Linux mode it does play classic and older games perferctly and supports high speed web surfing.


http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/


...Ave Luciferus...
Reply #47 Top
"Wow, I've never seen someone so angry over the fact that someone is having loads of fun with a machine they just can't understand yet. Enjoy your "yet another doom clone" crap, because I can be narrow-minded and think that's all that's on a PC too."

It doesn't anger me that someone is having fun with their little play toy. Just keep your narrow little mind focused on defeating Bowser for the umpteenth time, rather than those horribly complicated computers, and everything will be fine. I really have no worries about the PC game market disappearing.

I'm just stating the simple fact that consoles are made for kids. They're made of really "cool" colored plastic, and have an easy-to-operate "Power" button. If you can't understand a PC yet, then that's just sad. It's because of people like you that AOL exists.
Reply #48 Top
Gonna have to send a message here. Because the ignorance of this guy is giving me a burning sensation behind the eyes..

"They're made of really "cool" colored plastic"
Have you been PC shopping recently? It's not just consoles which are coloured to attract people, I've seen PC's of all the colours of
the rainbow (seperately, not at once, that would be harsh on the old eyes) and yes, people do buy them just for the colour (I've met
these idiots)

"have an easy-to-operate "Power" button."
Having trouble turning on your PC? Is it a bit difficult to opperate? Do you need to be intelligent to push that ONE button to turn a
PC on? Obviously not since you've managed to work a keyboard.

"If you can't understand a PC yet, then that's just sad."
Is that you're opinion? Work a computer or you're sad? Grow up! Each to their own, eh?

(aaah, the burning has gone)

I play games on both PC's and consoles and I think the whole games market is shrinking, no one dares try something new
anymore, theyre too worried about whether it'll make money to try and be original. I mean, come on, how many 'Tony Hawk'
games and 'The Sims' expansion packs do we need? Eventually, people will get bored of the same thing drawn up with a new
plot over and over *cough* Games made from Tom Clancy novels *cough*. Either games publisher's will realise this, or people
will stop buying as many games, I, for one look thoroughly into a game now before buying so that I know each game will be a
new and challenging experience. What platform will I buy it for? Probably console, as i move house a lot, are quicker to set up
than PC's but not as annoying as laptops with their charging or small keyboard or small screen (yes I know they come with bigger
screens and you can plug in new keyboards...but then you need a desk).
Reply #49 Top
OK buddy, first of all, any PC that's made of brightly colored (oh, I'm sorry, COLOURED) plastic, is marketed directly to and made for the pre-schoolers that I'm referring to in my posts. The real advantage of PC's is that you can build your own and upgrade it rather cheaply.

Second, playing a game on a PC seems to take more than just pressing a power button, since you need to install it first. See virtually every post above. I'm surprised that your infinite intelligence can't grasp that concept. Ooops, sorry, I guess it can't. Evidently, it takes too long for you to set up a computer after you "move house". Obviously, you've never been to a LAN party.

Third, yes, it is sad if you can't understand a PC enough by now to install a game and update it as needed. I'm not talking building PC's here, just loading software! If you remember, the article we're supposed to be discussing mentioned that issue as a detraction to PC games, because people are still too ignorant to get it right.

Maybe you should check that burning sensation again. Are you sure it's not a little further south though?