Why I now think it was good Elemental was released last year

Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008

+441

I agree with you, but I dread the next major Stardock release. At what point will their customers just start screaming for more knowing SD will cave? Regardless of if such a tactic is successful or not, I'm getting a headache just thinking about the forums around the release.

This is sort of like a reverse bail-out.

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Odds are the next SD release will be tested more carefully/made sure it's ready before being released.

One of my regrets about the Elemental beta was not saying myself that I didn't think the game was in a good release state, but I didn't feel like I could judge it fairly, since I didn't do the GCII DL beta, and didn't see the state that game was in on launch. Didn't really do pre-orders for SD stuff until DA.

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Interesting point. I hope I'll be too busy playing Elemental to even come to the forums of the next game until it too is in good shape.

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Quoting Heavenfall,

reply 1

I agree with you, but I dread the next major Stardock release. At what point will their customers just start screaming for more knowing SD will cave? Regardless of if such a tactic is successful or not, I'm getting a headache just thinking about the forums around the release.

This is sort of like a reverse bail-out.

We fans are not unreasonab;e pricks, hell months ago I was continually asking for ponies from Brad, and I've stopped and have calmed down and no longer ask unreasonable request.

p.s. Where the fuck is my Pony, Brad!

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Quoting Alstein,

reply 2

Odds are the next SD release will be tested more carefully/made sure it's ready before being...

I agree, however I also think that with more seperation of roles the end product will be better by nature of design. Having fresh eyes on a project often helps - as Brad has mentioned, he was too closely involved with the nuts and bolts development of Elemental and couldn't provide that needed perspective. With Kael and now Jon on board, I feel that they'll have more than enough fresh perspective.

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Civ 5 is nothing good... Hiring members of the team that made the game... Not sure if it is a good step. Anyway don't judge... Just observe the results. Wait and see. Same for the next game from SD.

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Quoting ZehDon,

reply 5

I agree, however I also think that with more seperation of roles the end product will be better by nature of design. Having fresh eyes on a project often helps - as Brad has mentioned, he was too closely involved with the nuts and bolts development of Elemental and couldn't provide that needed perspective. With Kael and now Jon on board, I feel that they'll have more than enough fresh perspective.

Kinda agree. But it's also because they were too closely involved, that they took criticism during the beta too personally. A lot of beta users were saying "No, it's not ready" but they didn't listen to them. A separation of roles, as you mentioned, and less of a "this is my baby, I love it and don't want to change it" mindset is needed. But I think they learned their lesson on that and I have faith they'll be fine on their future projects.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

Let me tell you guys something that has come up a LOT internally:

If Elemental had been released in February 2011, it would have still sucked.

I'm going to be giving a talk at GDC 2011 that goes over the details of this and some of you who are familiar with Stardock are already aware of some of the issues that led to Elemental's crappy launch.

But in a nutshell, most of Stardock's revenue comes from non-games. The games don't pay the bills. They were treated as a company hobby. And when you have teams of 6 or so you can do that. But when you get to around 20 people on a game, it's a software engineering effort. It's a project. And you need serious project management, scheduling, etc.

If it weren't for the wake up call we got in August 2010, we would have not realized just how screwed up the games unit was in terms of its configuration. That's why we brought in Kael (an ENTERPRISE level project manager and a game designer) and now Jon Shafer. If you want to make bigger titles you have to have a different way of running the project.

I personally only got involved on Elemental this past Spring on a daily basis. And by then, it was way too late.

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One of the things i remember finding rather odd was that just prior to release draginol/frogboy/brad kept saying that the "internal build" was so much better than the build available to the betas. At the moment it took it on good faith. And their excuses afterwards, for their lapse of judgement, were all very reasonable. I just don't understand why the final build wasn't made available to the betas (or why our version wasn't more in sync with the internal build). It would have meant that our (betas) opinion would have been much more reliable. And the complaints wouldn't be dismissed on the grounds that they're based on an outdated version. Maybe we could have convinced the developers that more time and work was needed.

In short, why have betas if you won't run the final product past them? (Or why apply changes in order to fix problems perceived by some without running the corrected version by those who perceived the problem?)

Edit: Ninja'd by the man himself.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

The internal build was much better.

Look at Beta 4 and compare it to the release. It just wasn't "better enough".

In the future, the betas will go through the beta groups. There was way way way too much concern/worry that we were ruining the game for the beta testers so we tried to hold back as much as we could. Bad idea.

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Quoting Heavenfall,

reply 1

I agree with you, but I dread the next major Stardock release. At what point will their customers just start screaming for more knowing SD will cave? Regardless of if such a tactic is successful or not, I'm getting a headache just thinking about the forums around the release.

This is sort of like a reverse bail-out.

I hope this is where the beauty of actually making Elemental modifiable in better, more efficient ways than we have now. That way, people like you can help shape the game in a way different than Stardock's vision.

The game I have logged the most hours in was Neverwinter Nights, and it wasn't because the original game was awesome (the story and game itself was only mediocre when compared to BG2 or Torment). It was because people continued to put out awesome mods years later that expanded upon the original game in amazing ways (and sometimes, in not so amazing ways).

Edit:

Just like to point out that better build tools aren't all we need. Elemental really needs a better way to install and remove mods by end users. Telling them to drop XML files in a folder in X location really isn't that awesome. Also, a way to check compatibilities. Having to read through: "This Mod is Compatible with X,Y, and Z, but any modification to weapons will break this mod" makes it difficult for people to do anything other than pick the most popular favorites that have been tested significantly.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 10

In the future, the betas will go through the beta groups. There was way way way too much concern/worry that we were ruining the game for the beta testers so we tried to hold back as much as we could. Bad idea.

Meh, that's the risk you take as a beta tester. Meybe next time, put up some sort of spoiler warning, let us know what were getting into.

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Quoting XPU1,

reply 6

Civ 5 is nothing good... Hiring members of the team that made the game... Not sure if it is a good step. Anyway don't judge... Just observe the results. Wait and see. Same for the next game from SD.

Disagree about the Civ V point. The AI needs work, but frankly removing stacks of armies made me one of the happiest people in the world. I hated stacks. Hated.

However, if you need to be pacified, Shafer had been a long time modder of the Civilization games in general, and is credited with helping develop Civ IV and its expansions.

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Quoting Wieke,

reply 12

Quoting Frogboy, reply 10In the future, the betas will go through the beta groups. There was way way way too much concern/worry that we were ruining the game for the beta testers so we tried to hold back as much as we could. Bad idea.

Meh, that's the risk you take as a beta tester. Meybe next time, put up some sort of spoiler warning, let us know what were getting into.

Pfft. Stuff changing is a given in a beta and an implicit thing about 'em. While a spoiler might be nice, honestly, beta testers should not be surprised if/when things change a lot and developers shouldn't be afraid to make 'em (as Brad noted). Otherwise, nothing productive happens 'cause everyone's trying not to disturb the status quo... even if it's bad. Beta is the time to be harsh so that the release isn't.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 10

The internal build was much better.

Look at Beta 4 and compare it to the release. It just wasn't "better enough".

In the future, the betas will go through the beta groups. There was way way way too much concern/worry that we were ruining the game for the beta testers so we tried to hold back as much as we could. Bad idea.

Honestly, with Twilight- that policy might have made a bit of sense. When the game was officially released, I was a little tired of it and took a break- but I had felt very satisfied/gotten my money's worth despite that, and had been playing it heavily for a good 1-2 months, and enjoyed it plenty after a small break.

As long as people get their money's worth, I don't think it's too important when they get it.

For a new game like elemental, it's important to make sure it's worth buying on its own merits when you want to sell it in the wild.

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Quoting sagittary,

reply 14

Quoting Wieke, reply 12
Quoting Frogboy, reply 10In the future, the betas will go through the beta groups. There was way way way too much concern/worry that we were ruining the game for the beta testers so we tried to hold back as much as we could. Bad idea.

Meh, that's the risk you take as a beta tester. Meybe next time, put up some sort of spoiler warning, let us know what were getting into.

Pfft. Stuff changing is a given in a beta and an implicit thing about 'em. While a spoiler might be nice, honestly, beta testers should not be surprised if/when things change a lot and developers shouldn't be afraid to make 'em (as Brad noted). Otherwise, nothing productive happens 'cause everyone's trying not to disturb the status quo... even if it's bad. Beta is the time to be harsh so that the release isn't.

I don't think he meant "ruining the game for the beta testers" by changing it. But ruining the final game for the betas by showing it to us early (spoiling the surprise if you will).

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 8

Let me tell you guys something that has come up a LOT internally

Thanks for sharing that. I guess that then makes Elemental's release essentially a coming of age of SD's game studio. It'll be interesting to see if we can see a clear difference as users into how SD games shape up after these events.

I'll be really interested to hear the GDC talk.

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Mmh, Well, each patch makes the game better and better... That's why just wait and see. I think Brad isn't a moron and knows well what he is doing. A never gave any credit to the talking. I analyse facts. And from what i saw up to now... It's in good way. Let see if it will hold this path.

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I am a fan of useing profsenel beta companys like I-beta for most funcnality testing. But finale tested need to be done by real players. There feedback is not has well structured has the profesnel testers. But game exsperts have became kind of a close ciricit coumninity. with no understanding of the perspective of game players who don't know or apresate how well writen the scrip for the left option box is. Thay just know it wood be better on the the right side of the screen

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Das123

Join Date 05/2003

+82

If we're doing an after evaluation report on the Elemental beta process, I concur with many of the comments here.

1. Most of the beta versions weren't stable enough to test properly.

2. With-holding crucial content felt like the whole beta process was a sham and that, as a tester, any feedback was inherently going to be largely irrelevant.

3. If content should be held back from the beta testers then the beta process should move to a closed beta at that point where select testers have access to all the content.

4. The standard response during testing was 'The real game is much better - why are you wasting our time with this irrelevant feedback when we only want you to focus on xyz?' which became extremely confusing as a beta tester.

5. The many warnings from the testers that the game wasn't ready for launch were treated as personal attacks - which as a tester was intimidating and would have stopped a lot of honest feedback.

6. Often feedback would be given without any sort of response. This same feedback would be given time after time and as a tester the assumption is that no-one read or cared about the feedback which left you thinking 'Why bother.'. I still believe the 'to-hit' percentage in the tactical battle unit card is incorrect but there has been no confirmation or denial that this is the case.

7. Not having the easy ability to upload error reports meant that many testers would not have bothered responding.

8. Perhaps a more structured approach would be better such as the way bugs are now handled in many web applications with a dedicated bug list.

9. The amount of access to the development team via the forums was very positive in general.

I honestly didn't enjoy the 1.0 beta process at all. I became way too emotionally attached to the game which left me feeling extremely frustrated when it didn't live up to expectations. On top of the frustration it ended up chewing way too much of my time. Unless the process is changed I think I'll still try the beta games but only as a preview rather than to give much feedback. The 1.1 beta process was heaps better because of Kael's changelogs which at least gave you concrete context of what was happening.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 8

Let me tell you guys something that has come up a LOT internally:

If Elemental had been released in February 2011, it would have still sucked.

I'm going to be giving a talk at GDC 2011 that goes over the details of this and some of you who are familiar with Stardock are already aware of some of the issues that led to Elemental's crappy launch.

But in a nutshell, most of Stardock's revenue comes from non-games. The games don't pay the bills. They were treated as a company hobby. And when you have teams of 6 or so you can do that. But when you get to around 20 people on a game, it's a software engineering effort. It's a project. And you need serious project management, scheduling, etc.

If it weren't for the wake up call we got in August 2010, we would have not realized just how screwed up the games unit was in terms of its configuration. That's why we brought in Kael (an ENTERPRISE level project manager and a game designer) and now Jon Shafer. If you want to make bigger titles you have to have a different way of running the project.

I personally only got involved on Elemental this past Spring on a daily basis. And by then, it was way too late.

I appreciate this kind of honesty from you guys...seriously. Personally I don't think there was anything good about releasing Elemental in the shape it was in...and I really think it hurt you guys. Maybe it's good that it's been a learning experience for you internally and you guys will make even better games now...but as a consumer that really doesn't matter much to me. As a fellow human though I can sympathize and am glad you guys have such a positive outlook and are still very motivated to continue on.

I wish you guys a lot of luck in 2011 and look forward to eventually enjoying Elemental.

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Quoting Alstein,

reply 2

Odds are the next SD release will be tested more carefully/made sure it's ready before being released.

One of my regrets about the Elemental beta was not saying myself that I didn't think the game was in a good release state, but I didn't feel like I could judge it fairly, since I didn't do the GCII DL beta, and didn't see the state that game was in on launch. Didn't really do pre-orders for SD stuff until DA.

Agreed. SD has an active community, SD should use them (& abuse them as needed^^) to beta test whatever they have in devolpment. Make them sign non disclosure agreements... hold their children hostage, or whatever, to keep the lid on disclosures. In short... poke & prod all of your unrully goblins in an effective beta testing team.

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