Abortion is Murder

from JoeUser Forums
Abortion is murder.

It's an interesting concept on an intellectual level, and a terrifying one when taken to its logical extreme. I'm going to assume everyone knows the basics of this faith-based perspective, so let's skip to a condescending example.

There is a woman. Let's call her 'Jane'. She, being a woman, is capable of having children. Because she uses the pill, she has regular periods. Every time she does so, an egg fails to be fertilised and thus is expelled from her body (this account is going to be simplified, so forget about the complexities; I don't care about them when it comes to the example).

Now, according to the abortion is murder argument, this is fine; an unfertilised egg has no soul and it's therefore not murder.

Fast-forward however a few years. Jane now has a guy in her life. His name is unimportant. They decide to have a child. An egg gets fertilised and 9 months later she gives birth to a child.

All fine and dandy. Jane, however, gets another egg fertilised by accident. She decides to have an abortion. It's best if we don't bother with what her man thought, because that's not an argument I want to get into.

The fertilised egg is destroyed whilst in the womb at 6 weeks. She has committed murder.

All well and good.

Then she and her man decide they want another child. Eventually an egg gets fertilised. But, 4 months into her pregnancy, she has a miscarriage. No one's sure about why it happened, but one thing is certain. She's committed manslaughter, or is at least guilty of neglect or an accessory to manslaughter.

That's what I can't handle.

If you believe that abortion is murder, how do you deal with it?
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16,107 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, I don't think that pro-lifers consider miscarriage to be murder or similar to abortion because it typically completely un-influenced by the actions of the woman and is therefore, considered to be caused by God (or "nature").

If you're arguing that women CAUSE miscarriages, then I have a big problem with that.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
The difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is CHOICE. Can I choose an abortion? Yes. Can I choose to miscarry? Ummm...sometimes, I suppose, but mostly no.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

If you believe that abortion is murder, how do you deal with it?

Sometimes babies die, through no fault of anyone.  It happens all over the world all the time.  It is not a crime that mankind cannot save every life.  It is a fact of nature.  Therefore, a miscarriage, like crib death, or an accidental death is not murder, manslaughter, or neglect.  It is a fact of life, whether you beleive in abortion or not.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

How about this:

Most birth control pills work by keeping the fertilized egg from attaching itself to the uterus. Therefore, if you believe abortion is murder, then you better not be using birth control pills.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Can I choose to miscarry? Ummm...sometimes, I suppose, but mostly no.


If you forcibly miscarry, then it's not miscarriage...it's abortion.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
intresting thoughts here cacto, but I have to agre with marcie. it's all about choice, you choose to abort, you do not choose to miscarry.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, I don't think that pro-lifers consider miscarriage to be murder or similar to abortion because it typically completely un-influenced by the actions of the woman and is therefore, considered to be caused by God (or "nature").


And that viewpoint I consider to be hypocritical in the extreme. If a fertilised egg has a soul and therefore cannot be killed with a coathanger, then it follows that to kill it with the wrong diet or smoking or some other random act is murder without full intent, or manslaughter.

It's a matter of human rights. If you believe a fetus has a right to live, then all fetuses deserve the right to a full inquest on their death. Regardless of whether it was death through abortion or death through miscarriage they had the right to live and their mother didn't act appropriately to assure their survival.

Of course I think if you believe that then you've got no heart. But if you believe abortion is murder how can you not believe that miscarriage is manslaughter? Take a real-life example. If I rented out my house to a tenant and then poisoned them in their sleep with gas, possibly because I didn't pipe it properly, would I be innocent of their deaths? Logically it can't be any different to smoking while pregnant if one believes a fetus has the right to live.

It's certainly inconsistent to argue that somehow choice makes its way into the situation. If the right to life is a right of all fetuses, how can you choose to discard its rights simply because a doctor wasn't involved in the child's death?

It's just hypocritical.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sometimes babies die, through no fault of anyone. It happens all over the world all the time. It is not a crime that mankind cannot save every life. It is a fact of nature. Therefore, a miscarriage, like crib death, or an accidental death is not murder, manslaughter, or neglect. It is a fact of life, whether you beleive in abortion or not.


Yes, and all crib deaths are investigated fully. But miscarriages aren't because the law doesn't recognise the right of fetuses to life (at least not where I live anyway). If the law comes to believe that abortion is murder then any failed pregnancy must be considered a potential crime.

And frankly I refuse to consider that the outcome of God's law.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
If a fertilised egg has a soul and therefore cannot be killed with a coathanger, then it follows that to kill it with the wrong diet or smoking or some other random act is murder without full intent, or manslaughter.


This is fundamentally wrong, Cacto. Smoking or "wrong" diet DO NOT cause miscarriage. I think you should read up on miscarriage a bit.

A pregnancy is not so fragile that a mom who is malnourished or who smokes, or even who takes drugs, will miscarry. It takes something dramatic like trauma to cause a miscarriage.

If you understood the guilt that good women who want a baby and take excellent care of themselves feel when they miscarry, you would understand how reprehensible what you're suggesting is. Women don't CAUSE miscarriages.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Smoking or "wrong" diet DO NOT cause miscarriage


I always thought it could cause miscarriage or deformity in the child. You'd know better than me though so I'll take your word for it.

If you understood the guilt that good women who want a baby and take excellent care of themselves feel when they miscarry, you would understand how reprehensible what you're suggesting is. Women don't CAUSE miscarriages.


I think it's reprehensible as well. What I want to know is how do people who believe that abortion is murder reconcile that belief with a miscarriage. I thought maybe there was some way of doing it without what I consider hypocrisy, a way that didn't seem so unbelievably harsh. I guess I could be wrong though.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Tell me you see a difference between a death and a killing! In your article, you don't seem to grasp the concept.

I laugh when I read this type of argument. An ovum has the DNA of the mother, the zygote does not. The zygote has it's own DNA, and metabolism. Therefore it is a living individual human being. Another person has been added to the scenario (even if you choose to ignore that fact).

This may come as some surprise to you, but I can't even agree that abortion is murder. Murder is the death of a person as a result of a crime (whether directly or indirectly). As long as abortion is legal, no matter how many innocent people are killed, it isn't murder (Unless you want to discuss international holocaust or genocide laws... but do you really want to open THAT kettle of fish in "defense" of abortion?).
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Cacto: I think abortion should be legal in the first trimester, but I do understand how people can differentiate between abortion and miscarriage because one is an active choice and the other is something internal that they have no control over.

If I'm not mistaken, there are some things (drugs and drinking) that are considered child endangerment or child abuse during pregnancy.

Miscarriage is a strange thing. A woman can abuse her body completely and give birth to a healthy baby. A different woman can get early prenatal care, eat well, exercise, and just do everything she can to ensure a healthy pregnancy and have a miscarriage.

Many women miscarry without even knowing that they're pregnant. Miscarriages may result from an incompetent cervix or a genetic problem with the embryo/fetus or any number of other things that are not the result of a woman's poor choices.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
"If a fetus is a human being, why doesn't the census count them? If a fetus is a human being, why do people say they have two children and one on the way instead of saying they have three children?" - George Carlin

"Unborn means just that: not born yet." - Bill Maher
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Funny lines, I'll admit, but hardly the basis of an argument. ;~D
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Funny lines, I'll admit, but hardly the basis of an argument.


Hey, the most persuasive things I've ever heard have been funny. The way I see it anyone who can't be bothered laughing at themselves and their positions isn't worth agreeing with. They're just not the sort of person I'd want to be associated with.

Cacto: I think abortion should be legal in the first trimester, but I do understand how people can differentiate between abortion and miscarriage because one is an active choice and the other is something internal that they have no control over.


And that's more or less my position as well. I think women should have the choice of an abortion in the first trimester. I also think that women don't have any real control over a miscarriage so shouldn't be punished for it.

But this is based on my belief that a child doesn't deserve any rights until it takes its first breath and becomes human, or at least human enough. If it doesn't reach that stage, it wasn't meant to be. That includes abortions.

I just wonder how those who think infants have a soul at conception deal with potentially self-inflicted miscarriages (known genetic flaws, drug use etc). Can miscarriage be murder according to the 'abortion is murder' argument?

Tell me you see a difference between a death and a killing! In your article, you don't seem to grasp the concept.


The article is oversimplified, partly because I'm fairly lazy and secondly because the core beliefs of the argument are fairly alien to me. At least in Australia you can get punished for wrongful death or neglect; a junkie who miscarries would presumably be liable to that if they contributed to the death of a rights-bearing citizen in their womb. Sure it's just a death, but the junkie became pregnant when they couldn't support a life, and thus contributed to the infant's death.

That's the basic line I'm trying to put across here, and I am apparently doing it very badly.

What's the 'abortion is murder' response to that argument? Do babies only have rights when a doctor is involved or is it not a rights-based argument at all? If it's purely scripture-based that's fine; I can blankly apply to it all the scepticism and contempt only a Catholic school education can bring. But I always thought there was a human rights angle to the whole deal.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
But this is based on my belief that a child doesn't deserve any rights until it takes its first breath and becomes human, or at least human enough. If it doesn't reach that stage, it wasn't meant to be. That includes abortions.


So, apparently you are completely comfortable with defining "human being" by completely arbitrary definitions? I see you are also clueless to the difference between a death and a killing.

While I do apply scripture to my own beliefs, it isn't necessary for the abortion issue. If a fetus has a metabolism and DNA consistant with Human Beings, how can it possibly be anything but a Human Being? Therefore we should recognize the rights of a fetus equal to the rights of a neonate.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
So, apparently you are completely comfortable with defining "human being" by completely arbitrary definitions?


Of course! If I'm going to have a reason it may as well be arbitrary! But more seriously, I think humanity isn't simply a matter of genes. A human isn't simply something with the right number of chromosomes or whatever. And who's to say that's not an arbitrary definition anyway? I don't see any difference between deciding humanity on the basis of belief or the basis of science. Both are only valid according to their own rules.

Plus you get the problem raised by iconoclast if you just do it by genes - women who regularly have sex would need to regularly be scanned for pregnancy, just in case someone was trying to slip through the government net by not announcing their status at conception, when of course it would be time for them to get the appropriate identification as a full human being. Would the Births, Deaths and Marriages Bureau become Conceptions, Deaths and Life Partnerships? I suppose it could work though if everyone involved really applied themselves...

I see you are also clueless to the difference between a death and a killing.


Clue me in. I'm interested now.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Most birth control pills work by keeping the fertilized egg from attaching itself to the uterus. Therefore, if you believe abortion is murder, then you better not be using birth control pills.


exactly.

also applicable to the various 'morning after' pills and vice-versa.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

Most birth control pills work by keeping the fertilized egg from attaching itself to the uterus. Therefore, if you believe abortion is murder, then you better not be using birth control pills.

That is what the morning after pill does.  BC pills stop the woman from ovulating.

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

If the law comes to believe that abortion is murder then any failed pregnancy must be considered a potential crime.

Which a doctors note would absolve you of.  Quick and easy.

When you come right down to it, everything you do is considered a potential crime (did you speed?  Insider trading to make that grand?).  However, the police are not investigating potential crimes, they are investigating crimes.