Balance and the Demise of fun

Why dont you just play without the upgrades?

Many people are still only on 1.12.

I dont mind the starbase tax myself as I tend to generate enough money through research and diplomacy for a few hear and there.

If the starbase cost is your major gripe, I could whip up a quick mod to deal with it for you.

I'm afraid not much can be done about the minors on that front though... I've complained about that myself recently. They've been nerfed somewhat for AP I hear, but I think we're stuck with them in vanilla GC... at least for a while.

No not really.

Minors do not give you cash in trade but still expand and build trade goods and wonders. I find minor a factor in the early game only.



From what I read charging for starbases is only a minor challenge for the people exploiting them.

I thought that was a bug. I don't have AP myself, but the release notes indicate that the minors aren't supposed to be building wonders and trade goods.



If the goal was to make it more difficult to 'culture bomb' the AI, I would have thought there would be better ways to do it. Reducing the effect of culture modules for instance, or changing the way starbase bonuses stack.

Brad indicated at one point that part of the reason for the change was to encourage players to build up their bases, rather than spewing out dozens of them with one or two modules.

Personally, I think the best way to achieve both goals would have been to change the rules so that only the HIGHEST bonus from all bases in the sector is applied to any given ability, rather than having the bonuses stack, as this would both encourage the specialization and improvement of existing bases and prevent abuse of cultural modules... but nobody asked me...

Is it really 200 bc per starbase I thought it was 20 bc. 200 is just too extreme.

It's zero for the first, 200 for the second, 400 for the third, and so on. Less with logistics technology.
It hasn't caused me any real problems - my playing style only needed some minor adjustment. Specifically, I focus more on grabbing large amounts of money whenever the opportunity arises. The only changes I really want in GalCiv are:
AIs who are less gullible and who know how to use transport ships
A few more shortcuts - eg a simple action like building a terror star should be possible without having to do twenty mouse clicks.
A fix for the current bugs, and no new ones added

~SDC~

I agree

As for the starbases, in my current game I build 2 logistics wonders, and the cost is really affordable. But I do not construct fleets of terror stars. Only resource starbases and eventually one or two in my best sectors (where have several planets) tp help production and trade (and defense eventually)

I think the best way to limit the Starbase exploits would be allow Starbases to be built on the resources only.

At first i really liked the idea about the added cost of building starbases...and i still think it is a good idea to make people think more about when they are using SB's, maybe the cost should change depend on difficulty level...

Lately i have started to think about whether trade means to much in this game. Normally trade will make up 2/3 of my income, which means that i try to avoid long lasting wars and i would never leave the UP. Maybe if the trade amount would be toned down and the income from planets were to be upped this would change this (this would have to include 4xPQ cap).

I think the culture flipping has been fixed by upping the loyalty of the AI's.



I don't agree. This would take out the some of cultural aspects of the game.

I rarely find resources in the same sectors as my stars. And even then, you would want them in your best sectors. Cash is rarely a problem for me under the new system. I used to build starbases up the wazoo. Now I have a more limited number, but later in the game I actually need to build some starbases to keep my treasury from getting too bloated.

Strange to read the 1st post... For me the changed diplomacy

(Nah, we won't declare war on them, they are too strong!; Nah, we won't buy this stuff from you, we are already in debt!)

had a much bigger impact to my playing style (I guess I am a diplomat-player since I always start with +60 diplo and when I win almost always do so by Alliance-victory.)

For the SBs I simply lower my tax-rate until I can buy them... Well, maybe I would think in another way, if the bug or feature that I can park a constructor on a Resource before I build a base there, would not exist. :notsure:

The new starbases rules have made the game easier. The AIs have now difficulties to grab all the resources so that the human player has a better chance in the race.

Moreover if you send a constructor to a ressource and decline to build a base, your constructor will stay on the ressource and prevent other races from building a starbase here A bit cheesy btw.
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Actually, I think the better solution would be to make the resource starbases free (private sector investment in a profitable enterprise) while others have a cost.

I think that's a great idea - and then the starbase cost could perhaps be upped for the non-resource bases to compensate.

~SDC~

This would be a great idea I think, and somewhat of a solution to the problems I don't even have. It is clear from several posts here that the glitches are still being exploited, at different rates. Please don't spoil the whole game for those of us who are not the best players, just to stop a few cheaters. .. 12 year olds will be 12 year olds.

Some people care only to win, not about winning.



~SDC~

Elkabong, at which level are you playing? If you aren't playing at maso, you should be able to sell tech in exchange of Bc/turn.
What are the first tech you are researching?
How do you begin the game (2 first years moves)?
What kind of galaxy are you playing?

In reply to Phoenix.. This varies, as I think any game that FORCES certain first moves is silliness in and of itself, but I usually try to do this..
- 100% military, and build colony ships, sending out 200m people every time I have 200 over 1 bill, until it's clear the settlement phase is done.
- Then get to trade as fast as I can, with 100% research (using the "extra" to do planet improvement, or a constructor or two if I can). Then get two trade ships out ASAP, and hopefully get a starbase with trade bonuses in my home sector by the time they arrive at destination.
- Then it really depends on what the map has allowed me to do..

I would like to ask if anyone knows how I can go back in time. The game is just not fun with this newest patch. I restarted until I got a REALLY good setup, something I have never done,.. But now I find they've fucked the trade amounts around again, on top of fucking up the other balances of the game. If I cannot go back to the last patch I will not play again.

I am sorry for the frustration all, but I am not as good as all you. I don't like to play on RETARD level either, as the AI is a big part of it for me. maybe I am just sick of never knowing from patch to patch what to expect, although I have always adjusted until now. This is not fun anymore, and I am guessing the submissions (or lack thereof) to the metaverse since the latest patch tell the devs this too.. PLEASE FIX YOUR FIXES, OR TELL ME HOW I CAN GET THE GAME I LOVED BACK. Thanks for understanding.

Dave.

PS.. I just moved up to all the opponents on "BRIGHT"..
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i appreciate your frustration with 1.2, as the new save game mechanism has made playing 1.2 quite hairy. however, having finally realised that you have to DELETE ALL your old file including savegame and previoussavegame and endsavegame (ie as if you were starting from scratch)in order not to have a corrupt game, i'm only NOW starting to appreciate 1.2. I'm finding that the new balance (ie more of an emphasis on trade for income rather than techs for income) has made the game better, in that financial relationships can be more seriously disabled by war. but that's just me.

your start-up sounds fine. what start-up picks do you take at the moment? (ie PQ, Diplomacy, Morale etc)

I don't do anything anymore, not until I can go back in time. I will never play again this way, just too damned frustrating.

I used to use +Luck and +Diplomacy mostly (for better trading values, although they really rooked me in 1.2 on that too, no one pays for nothing anymore), and +research.

I dont' need to re-learn a game every month guys. No game has ever totally changed the way it worked to stop a few bug abusers. I guess I will go get out Alpha Centauri. At least I am pretty sure they didn't make it so only uber-geniuses could play it in the last month. I am so disheartened I cannot describe it.

And does no one care that winning by culture has been eliminated essentially? They already squeezed the life out of winning that way by crippling our scores when we won that way, wasn't that enough!?! They favor war, so just make that the ONLY way to win. Bah.

~SDC~

I will say that 200m people is too much for a colony ship: you must know that one important thing in the game is morale. 100% moral on a planet allow a better growth rate which turn into more taxes and more production. And 100 people on a class 15 planet will have a base moral (nefore effect of taxes and improvement) of 96%.

So it is better to send 40 people in colony ship since it would allow to maintain high taxes rate with high morale

Have you tried playing abundant map?

Should try the populist party (+20% moral, +20% diplo).
And remember that any production or research bonus avec an economic consequence since only 1/3 of the bonus is free: you have to pay for the 2/3 of the bonus. So you spend more, but this is an advantage only if you are already at 100% spending.

It is better to use your earlier constructor to grab ressource than to put trad starbase: trade starbase apport benefit only when mini-freighter are in the same sector than the starbase, and when the trade route will bring enough income (which isn't the case in your home sector when estblishing the first trades routes). A 20% trade bonus on trade rout that bring 5BC per turn brign only 1 BC. Which rougly is the same that a 5% empire wide economy bonus on 20 BC per month for taxes (if planets haven't any economic bonus).

And don't forget that the governement has an influence on taxes income and spending

I can still conquer every planet by culture or destroy them all with terror stars, even at Maso difficulty - it's just that there's some challenge to it now. The basic techniques I use are to try to control all galactic trade by bribing AIs to fight their trading partners, and to protect and then exploit the new minors that appear. If that fails, I can set spending to zero for a while, save up for enough bases to destroy one empire or to culture flip one area, then destroy the bases to reduce future logistics costs and repeat.

~SDC~

basically tech-whoring has been somewhat nullified i think...so other strategies have to be used. i think this is a good thing.....i also like logistics now...or the intention of them anyway.....

elkabong,

If you're truly serious about never playing the game again under the current build, my suggestion would be to completely uninstall GalCiv, reinstall using your CD and then [email protected] Stardock asking for the build you last had fun with. I don't think it was ever Stardock's intention to ruin the game by making the changes to it. But by now means should you completely abandon the game in it's current form if you loved it before! I'm sure if you ask Stardock nicely (I don't suggest using the f-word), they will be more than happy to help you with your problems. They are the most dedicated software developer to their customers I've ever seen.

Good luck!

I thought the standalones patches were still available? No?

Aye, that is certainly true, after a night's sleep, I do feel I was a BIT surly last night. But while I see what they are doing, you will notice even in this thread that it is only the people who are exceptionally good at this game (ie : Play on masochistic) that enjoy the "challenges" this new version offered.

And I really really really really really really really .... really really.... really take exception to the suggestions that I do things a certain way. The game used to be winnable many ways, they are channelling things more an more so that if I don't follow one of a few specific paths I will not get there.

I will message them later and see if I can't get the last build, which I found enjoyable and challenging. Thanks for all your input guys.