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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,790,489 views 728 replies
Reply #702 Top

Quoting hetman, reply 700
One obvious item of genuine dispute is the trademark on the name itself, and while I can't comment on where the ownership truly resides by the letter of the law at this moment, it's pretty clear that P&F were happy to give up ownership over that particular piece of the game at some point in the past.


They never owned it.  F&P were contracted by Accolade to create Star Control.

Reply #703 Top

Quoting SWVRoma, reply 702

They never owned it.  F&P were contracted by Accolade to create Star Control.

Thanks for the clarification. That drives the point home even more strongly.

Reply #704 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 677


We cannot co-exist with someone who would try to destroy years worth of actual work (we've spent more time actually working on Star Control at this point than they did), put our employees jobs in jeopardy and try to bypass the legal process.  

The fans have waited 25 years for a new Star Control game.  Paul and Fred had innumerable opportunities to acquire Star Control over the years including a direct offer from me.  They declined.    Now the Star Control franchise will be rebooted.  And thankfully, it's a very, very good game.

 

This and this on top of all the email correspondence where Brad tried over and over and over to work with them only to have them refuse. 

Wait 25 friggin years then try to sabotage the effort to bring back something near and dear to our hearts. I love the game Paul and Fred helped create but their behavior is just deplorable, DMCA abuses aside. 

As many have already said, thank you to the entire origins team for making this happen, and this makes me wonder, If Brad wasnt such a huge fan of SC to begin with would this ever have happened? I get the sense from the emails and posts this was more of a SC fan in the right position and the economics just worked out for everyone. 

Reply #705 Top

Quoting SWVRoma, reply 702


Quoting hetman,
One obvious item of genuine dispute is the trademark on the name itself, and while I can't comment on where the ownership truly resides by the letter of the law at this moment, it's pretty clear that P&F were happy to give up ownership over that particular piece of the game at some point in the past.


They never owned it.  F&P were contracted by Accolade to create Star Control.

They never owned the "Star Control" trademark, and they've never claimed they do. Their property is the Reiche IP, which includes basically everything other than the name "Star Control". They were even in negotiations with Accolade to sell it at one point: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.320268/gov.uscourts.cand.320268.64.7.pdf


Reply #706 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 705

They never owned the "Star Control" trademark, and they've never claimed they do. Their property is the Reiche IP, which includes basically everything other than the name "Star Control". They were even in negotiations with Accolade to sell it at one point: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.320268/gov.uscourts.cand.320268.64.7.pdf

You mean the Star Control trademarks and the copyrights to Star Control III, all the art and packaging and documentation.  Trademarks meaning the exclusive right to associate your game with Star Control.

You keep quoting an addendum for Star Control IV as if it has some sort of legal meaning to Star Control II.   I am not suggesting that the DOS source code + some graphical images have no value, but they aren't particularly relevant to the case at hand as we have no interest in the DOS source code or graphics from a 25-year old DOS game.

If you want to continue litigating, I recommend going over to the UQM forums where there are plenty of people ready to play pretend lawyer with you.  

Reply #707 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 706

You keep quoting an addendum for Star Control IV

That's... not an addendum. It's an email thread.

If you want to continue litigating

I hardly think it takes a lawyer to conclude that if Accolade was looking to buy the IP, it wasn't actually theirs. Bit absurd to suggest they'd enter in to negotiations to buy and license something they already own, after all :)

Reply #708 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 707

I hardly think it takes a lawyer to conclude that if Accolade was looking to buy the IP, it wasn't actually theirs. Bit absurd to suggest they'd enter in to negotiations to buy and license something they already own, after all

We certainly know what Paul and Fred claimed to have owned at the time.  Events have, however, shown otherwise.  But I think we can all agree that Paul and Fred have very broad definitions of what is their property.  

Reply #709 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 708

We certainly know what Paul and Fred claimed to have owned at the time.  Events have, however, shown otherwise.  But I think we can all agree that Paul and Fred have very broad definitions of what is their property.  

 

I don't think there's any dispute about what Paul & Fred own, at this point?

They own the copyright to the source code:

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.320268/gov.uscourts.cand.320268.64.4.pdf

They own the copyright to every other part of SC1+2 (except the music):

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.320268/gov.uscourts.cand.320268.64.5.pdf

And all of the background material (Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.):

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.320268/gov.uscourts.cand.320268.64.7.pdf

 

Obviously they have no rights to the races that were new to Star Control 3, which is why Accolade mentioned that they might just move forward with the franchise focusing on those races instead. And of course, the "Star Control" title belongs to you. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my original post - I assumed people would read the document, which spells that out pretty clearly :)

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Reply #710 Top

They claim a lot of things, yes. 

Lately they’ve been trying to claim our work too. It seems to be a pattern with them.  To claim to own other people’s work.

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Reply #711 Top

They were very sure of what they had. But somehow still had to ask Brad what he got when buying the IP from Atari. Afterwards giving the excuse that they didn't buy it then because Atari had nothing really of value... besides THE, one and only, "Star Control" TRADEMARK! No, what they seem to care about is the brown sugar within the water of Coca-Cola®™.

... or maybe not. As they ask their fans for 2 million dollars for just a chance to the get the supposedly useless name. Meaning the value of Star Control™ more than tripled from 400k to 2 million. Everyday someone gives their money thinking they are helping P&F get the trademark AND develop Ghost of the Precursors™, even though development of the game is not mentioned anywhere and no updates are given.

Reply #712 Top

Quoting pendrokar, reply 711

They were very sure of what they had. But somehow still had to ask Brad what he got when buying the IP from Atari.

It doesn't hurt for them to double check. It was possible that Accolade had misled Brad and sold him rights they didn't have, at which point they'd want to jump in and clarify the situation. Accolade had already screwed up once by trying to sell the games on GOG

 No, what they seem to care about is the brown sugar within the water

I don't know about you, but I drink soda because I like the unique mix of brown sugar within the water, not because I'm impressed by the words "Coca-Cola™".

a chance to the get the supposedly useless name.

Paul & Fred are defending themselves from the millions in damages Stardock's suit claims. Even if they win, they don't get the trademark. At most, they get the right to say that Ghosts is a sequel to their previous work, Star Control 2.

Reply #713 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 712
I don't know about you, but I drink soda because I like the unique mix of brown sugar within the water, not because I'm impressed by the words "Coca-Cola™".

I wouldn't care about your taste. What I would care, is how many people you would be able to convince drinking sugar water. This is what it is all about. Brand recognition of Star Control. So far, SC fans seem to be are adding SC:O to the list of genuine SC games, strengthening the brand.

Quoting GMOrz, reply 712
Paul & Fred are defending themselves from the millions in damages Stardock's suit claims. Even if they win, they don't get the trademark. At most, they get the right to say that Ghosts is a sequel to their previous work, Star Control 2.

Oh god, then you talking is making everything WORSE! If they don't get the Trademark, they still can't name it "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors" without, rightly, Stardock's approval.

P&F have been businessmen for the last 25 years shown by the fact that there still isn't any GotP content until they get enough brand recognition to warrant developing the game. Quite sure that without the name Star Control, GotP will flop commercially.

Reply #714 Top

I've been away a while and out of the loop in regards to all things SC, only today read about all the legal drama. Having browsed around for info a bit, and looked over the timeline of events on the SC wiki, I honestly dont know what to think. My kneejerk reaction would be to side with Paul & Fred, but I can't wrap my head around some of their actions.

-Why would you refuse to buy the trademark to your universe (and thus prevent all these issues to begin with) for 300k, only to later ask for crowdfunding for up to 2 million dollars of legal fees? Seriously?

-Paul & Fred have been saying since forever that they'd love to make a proper sequel, but their pitches to the powers that be kept getting rejected, or other difficulties prevented them from acting on that desire. So, after 25 years, on the eve of an early SC:O release they post an announcement with... nothing. Just some text and one old image. Since then there hasn't even been a single update on that site. Stuff like that wouldn't get them 100$ on Kickstarter. 25 years of planning and dreaming and all they have to show is that? Wow.

But hey, another company has taken the financial risk of trying to resurrect SC, a plunge they couldn't convince their corporate masters to take, and just when the marketing of the game picks up and "Star Control" starts to appear in gaming media "Oh hey guys, we're finally gonna do it! Really! Here's a blank site with no updates! Here, a crowdfunding site for our legal fees! Hey, hunams, we finally have the balls to act now, just gib some monies!"

I cant say much about the legal merits of the case, but something about Paul & Fred's belated yet (seemingly) superficial boost of initiative and energy strikes me the wrong way. How much longer am I supposed to wait for a *true* Star Control? 5, 10, 25 more years? Even Star Wars didnt wait that long (shame it's a shiny ball of crap, though)

I absolutely love what Paul & Fred made, and I'd love to play another SC made by them, but jeez...

P.S. I haven't even played SC:O yet, so I can't judge the game.

 

 

Reply #715 Top

As someone who's still VERY new to all this controversy, I can understand 100% why Stardock (Brad) would protect their IP.

Also as someone who's played SCO, I've really been enjoying it even if I'm only 9 hours in!

 

Edit: Using IP as a blanket term

Reply #716 Top

Quoting Alverez, reply 660


Quoting Frogboy,






Quoting Alverez,



Understandable.  Good luck on your launch.  Unfortunately, I can't end my little protest until I am sure that your original promise will be kept.  I did enjoy participating in the Founders program.  Even when we disagreed. Especially then actually.



Well I suspect you'll be pleased with the launch.



You suspect wrong.  Until I know that your original promise will stand there will be no Stardock products on my systems.  Adding the Arilou 2 months in after launching without is still going back on your word.

The Arilou are definitely in the game though they don't identify themselves as the "Arilou" yet. They're non-infringing ones supposedly. Same background music, same "we've been watching over humans for quite a while" backstory. Their ship is different, and doesn't even show the race name next to ship name. They also talk about the Precursors briefly, how they vanished and left tech for humans... Haven't been able to play much since other games are taking up my free time as well.

Reply #717 Top

Quoting tingkagol, reply 716
The Arilou are definitely in the game though they don't identify themselves as the "Arilou" yet. They're non-infringing ones supposedly.

All you have to do is look at the StarDock Store to see that both the Arilou and Chenjesu are featured in the game to some degree, even if they're just in Fleet Battles-only DLC.

 

Reply #718 Top

Honestly, the legal argument here is valueless. I don't even care if Stardock has the legal rights it thinks it has to Star Control. I own at least six Stardock games, which I purchased previous to the announcement of Star Control Origins. From my first playthrough of Galactic Civilizations, I felt that the games had potential to be very good. They were admittedly somewhat half-assed and unfinished feeling, but in many ways GalCiv was better than some of the more polished rivals. I was not as happy with GalCiv 2 and 3, though. They were still half-assed and unfinished but without the feeling of potential future (or the excuse of being the start of an idea).

As soon as I saw that Stardock was making Star Control Origins, I knew I didn't want them to. I played Star Control for endless hours back in the days of Windows 3.1, and I have been waiting for decades for a real sequel to Star Control II. Stardock, let's be honest, makes games based on other people's ideas, putting out sloppy copies that are never finished. I have never been satisfied with the quality of a Stardock game, but hey, they aren't necessarily terrible. Until you try to slap that half-assed game-copying stuff on Star Control.

So here is something Stardock should consider. Given the choice, I would always side with Paul and Fred, because their stuff is actually good. What they have is the Star Control I want. If Stardock gets in the way of that, Stardock loses the chance to ever sell me a game again. If I could divest myself of the games I already bought, and somehow have Stardock lose the money they made selling them to me, I would. I will tell every gamer I meet not to buy any Stardock games. Some of us have been waiting over two decades for a new Star Control game, Stardock, and your money-grab using the Star Control name doesn't cut it. Your attempts to block a REAL Star Control are enraging.

Consider that thousands, tens of thousands of fans have been devotedly waiting for Paul and Fred to release a new Star Control game for 20+ years and then reconsider alienating all of those fans by continuing your chosen course. Even if you have the legal upper hand, and I'm not sure you do, it won't matter if you cause people to stop buying your half-assed games. Preventing the release of a future Paul and Fred Star Control is the line. Even gamers that aren't die-hard fans of Star Control II can see the lame money-grab that Star Control Origins is, and gamers can be amazingly touchy. I don't care if you take people's money with your fake Star Control game. But I can guarantee that a smaller company like Stardock, already on shaky ground (major layoffs a while back, right?) cannot afford a large public backlash. It's kinda short-sighted to drive your little company into the ground just so you can keep trying to make money off of someone else's successful works.

Anyway, when you release GalCiv 4, don't expect me to be lining up for it. I mean, I barely even touched 3 when there was a real decent game to play out there (Stellaris). But hey, do the less idiotic thing, and go back to your own halfway decent games, leaving Star Control alone, and maybe your sales will drop less.

Reply #719 Top

Quoting ForlorneKnight, reply 718

Anyway, when you release GalCiv 4, don't expect me to be lining up for it. I mean, I barely even touched 3 when there was a real decent game to play out there (Stellaris). But hey, do the less idiotic thing, and go back to your own halfway decent games, leaving Star Control alone, and maybe your sales will drop less.

 

 

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Reply #720 Top

Quoting ForlorneKnight, reply 718

Honestly, the legal argument here is valueless. I don't even care if Stardock has the legal rights it thinks it has to Star Control.

You mean buying a game from a company that went bankrupt, so no one would ever would have been able to touch this game again forever disappearing into obscurity.

Quoting ForlorneKnight, reply 718

I own at least six Stardock games, which I purchased previous to the announcement of Star Control Origins. From my first playthrough of Galactic Civilizations, I felt that the games had potential to be very good. They were admittedly somewhat half-assed and unfinished feeling, but in many ways GalCiv was better than some of the more polished rivals. I was not as happy with GalCiv 2 and 3, though. They were still half-assed and unfinished but without the feeling of potential future (or the excuse of being the start of an idea).

You should try to play the game now after version 1.7 it had been a great game. Polished like it's rivals.

Quoting ForlorneKnight, reply 718


As soon as I saw that Stardock was making Star Control Origins, I knew I didn't want them to. I played Star Control for endless hours back in the days of Windows 3.1, and I have been waiting for decades for a real sequel to Star Control II. Stardock, let's be honest, makes games based on other people's ideas, putting out sloppy copies that are never finished. I have never been satisfied with the quality of a Stardock game, but hey, they aren't necessarily terrible. Until you try to slap that half-assed game-copying stuff on Star Control.

The idea was started on a post that said please make this game referring to Galactic civilizations 3 like Star Control, so if you want to blame anyone for this blame a Star Control fan.

Quoting ForlorneKnight, reply 718


So here is something Stardock should consider. Given the choice, I would always side with Paul and Fred, because their stuff is actually good.

I assume when you are saying thier stuff is good then you aren't talking about Star control 1 & 2, but all the other games toys for bob has put out. If you hadn't played the other games then you can't make this statement. If you hadn't played the other games you should play them. I don't mean something like 9 hours,but over 100 hours each. Hope if you are making this statement you played their other more recent games.

Quoting ForlorneKnight, reply 718

What they have is the Star Control I want. If Stardock gets in the way of that, Stardock loses the chance to ever sell me a game again. If I could divest myself of the games I already bought, and somehow have Stardock lose the money they made selling them to me, I would. I will tell every gamer I meet not to buy any Stardock games. Some of us have been waiting over two decades for a new Star Control game, Stardock, and your money-grab using the Star Control name doesn't cut it. Your attempts to block a REAL Star Control are enraging.

Consider that thousands, tens of thousands of fans have been devotedly waiting for Paul and Fred to release a new Star Control game for 20+ years and then reconsider alienating all of those fans by continuing your chosen course.

You mean the game paul and fred wouldn't have been able to make if stardock hadn't bought the game at the bankruptsy sale.

Quoting ForlorneKnight, reply 718

Even if you have the legal upper hand, and I'm not sure you do, it won't matter if you cause people to stop buying your half-assed games. Preventing the release of a future Paul and Fred Star Control is the line. Even gamers that aren't die-hard fans of Star Control II can see the lame money-grab that Star Control Origins is, and gamers can be amazingly touchy.

You mean the idea inspired by a star control fan. Going off of emails I think it was paul's response to brads wondering why they wanted Star Control 3's source code that Paul insisted that Brad take the name of Star Control off Origins. It was Paul knowing that Brad was going to release the announcment to the new game when he released the trailer. that started this, and this is Stardocks fault this is why you are siding with Paul and Fred. It was brad's idea to talk instead.

 

 

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Reply #721 Top

Quoting ForlorneKnight, reply 718

I was not as happy with GalCiv 2 and 3, though. They were still half-assed and unfinished but without the feeling of potential future (or the excuse of being the start of an idea).

Great news! I was looking to get back into space 4X recently and after doing a bit of research on which game might be best, the general consensus I found was that if I wanted deep story telling I should pick up Stellaris (+expansions), if I wanted deep strategy then I should go with GalCiv 3 (+expansions). GalCiv3 might have has a slow start, but at this point, your characterisation of this game is hardly accurate.

Reply #722 Top

I find it amazing how those who have not yet played SCO, can be so negative. I am a HUGE SC fan. I've played all three extensively. I got involved with the founders program several years ago, and it was great that Stardock actually listened to what the players were saying. After playing for over 20 hours, here is my assessment:

The Melee combat is much better on SCO. The power-ups are an awesome addition, which can sometimes effect the battle outcome. The variety of ships (each race has normally at least 3 or more and they can have different weapons as well) are amazing. I love that the combat area is surrounded and can't be exited. This allows you to corner your opponent.

The race dialogue and story line is much better on SCO as well. You can tell that they hired some really talented writers for this, and is shows. While some of the quest seem similar to SO2, they put their own twist on it. 

The hyperspace travel is a wash as they are both so similar, however I do like that as you pass by a star system in SCO, you can actually see the ships and planets in the system. I also love the addition of the starbases. This basically replaced quasi-space.

The planetary exploration in SCO still needs some work, especially early on when you have not yet purchased the planet lander stabilizer thing. I have two of those, and it makes the planet lander bearable. If they would just reduce the height of all the terrain by 100%, I think it would be perfect. Some of the planets are just way do bumpy, which makes it hard to get around.

The tracking of the quest you need to do is very good on SCO and was non-existent in SC2. Also, it logs each event that you trigger as well. I also like that you can put pins on the starmap for important places, and then give them a textual label and color them. They do need to add a way to keep track of what star systems you have visited already. You can't really do that with the pins.

My opinion is that Stardock did an amazing job with keeping the original SC2 flavor to the game, but added lots of new features. And I am looking forward to modding this and making my own multiverse. 

This is only the second Stardock game I have purchased. The first was Sins of a Solar Empire, and one of the expansions. I thought it was a very good game, thus the reason I bought the expansion. I find it hard for someone to say that they feel Stardocks games are incomplete, yet they own 6 of them? Obviously you felt they were complete enough to continue buying their games.

And please don't get me started on the legal crap. It boils down to this: Stardock bought the rights. Stardock took the chance. F&P had the chance to buy the rights, but they did not. Plus they just waited too long to decide to make a sequel, and that makes me made at them. How long have we been screaming for a sequel? And then after another company buys the rights ($400K), you then want to do a sequel? It's like they wanted to wait until someone else stirred up the SC2 excitement and then decided they wanted to swoop in and take advantage of the timing. Sounds suspicious to me at best. While I would probably buy the game they are wanting to release, I am actually more looking forward to Starflight 3.

Stardock, once again thank you for doing what F&P did not, actually make another SC game!

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Reply #723 Top

Quoting dennylc, reply 722

And please don't get me started on the legal crap. It boils down to this: Stardock bought the rights.

Stardock claims they bought the rights. But Stardock makes a lot of unsubstantiated claims. The bankruptcy sale only seems to list the "Star Control" trademark (singular, just one trademark), and the copyrights new to Star Control 3 (which don't seem to be getting any use).

Heck, previously Stardock claimed it had no right to the aliens, and yet here we are.

At least Paul & Fred's claims have been consistent.

And Paul & Fred passed up quite a lot of money to retain those rights for themselves.  If you convert to 2018 dollars, their side of the IP was actually valued significantly above what Stardock paid for the trademark + SC3 IP.

Reply #724 Top

Quoting dennylc, reply 722
I am a HUGE SC fan.

Aww, don't be so hard on yourself.

With a proper diet and exercise regimen, you'll be a regular-size SC fan in no time! :P  

 

Some of the planets are just way do bumpy, which makes it hard to get around.

^THIS

And it doesn't help that the camera lags behind turning, so that knowing which way the lander will point when you've stopped turning is really difficult, makes combat extra hard.

That camera should be locked behind the lander, and should have a target reticle.

Reply #725 Top

Bionic Dance,

The Bumpy-ness of the planets was annoying for me. I fixed this by going into Ships> ship components > Lander anti gravity module and changed the value from 2 to 4. 

The super jump lander is now actually fun. 

Now we bounce like we did back in the first Beta's! Its great. Now I can do several large bouncy-trouncy jumps and get over the silly walls of some of the 'canyon-esque' planets.