Manual Targeting... NO????

haha, you won't get banned for this post. I would also like better responsiveness to targeted/focus fire. I know it is not the focus of the game but I still think it can be improved upon. A few months back while trying to see at what points the smoke and then fire and smoke started coming out of a Dreadnought I walked a Hyperion into the enemy base. I have to admit I hadn't realised how bad the dreadnought was at listening to my commands, as I observed that I had almost no ability to redirect its fire. Things may have changed some since then but the problem also exists with PHC bombers and units in general so I presume it is the same now. 

As a side note i think the smoke and smoke+fire should appear earlier as a useful visual aid to damage (by the time you got fire and smoke in that test the dreadnought was not going to survive) and it looks so cool it would allow it to be seen more often

I completely agree with the OP. Manual targeting is non existent. Targeting a single unit seems to not target the unit, but anything in the army that the unit is sat in. That means you can't manually decide to kill off the repair bots first without getting a lucky hit using an area of effect ability or weapon. It ****s me right off as well.

To make counters, either you tweak numbers so that X does more/less damage against Y, or you remove manual targetting and establish automatic targetting priorities. Ashes seems to take the latter approach to reduce micro. Is there a better way to reduce the targetting micro but keep the counters?

I understand the feeling, I actually take advantage of this flaw by creating very well mixed armies. In doing that I can focus on all types of enemies aside from dreadnoughts (My ranked matches don't usually last long enough for them to get one ). Gloating aside, I understand the prioritization system of units though I may be wrong in my interpretation.

Also, this is from a PHC perspective which is my main race

Unit list

Hermes: target frigates (used for radar)

Archers: target cruisers if present

Brutes: focus frigates (not enough damage to play much of an effect late game but still included for tanking capabilities)

Zeus: focus frigates with aoe lightning and the lasers guns more often than not go for the frigates as well

Nemesis: focus cruisers (obviously) but WILL more often than not focus a dread if present (this is my least powerful case)

Artemis: focus frigates but from multiple encounters they attempt to target a single unit that is near the most amount of units

Hades: will drop it's volleys as soon as possible on top of the first enemies

And that is what my strike force consists of with or without dreadnoughts

Granted, this is probably the type of force for all PHC users BUT with the right quantity of each type of unit in response to short observations of the enemy force, they can be defeated...

However, that was not the post. I'm pointing out that what they have DOES work, it just needs to be used correctly.

In my opinion, it would spice things up if they actually added a target priority system where you give an army a focus as to what needs to be destroyed first, second, third, and so if it's army v army. If manual targeting were allowed, I think it'd defeat the purpose of the planet wide war aspect where multiple battles could be happening simultaneously. It'd allow for more micro managing which I know very well that many good RTS players are masters at but this game focuses more on the big picture, the end game. If you were focused on fighting the enemies largest army who has a dreadnought, you should be trying to counter it by getting the dread destroying dread or spam nemesis units with a solid front of zeus and brutes to protect them. While that battle is happening, you could also focus on trading a blow against the enemy by taking a territory or two, reducing their resource income giving you a slight advantage to producing units for countering that dread. There are many situations where micro managing can help but in my opinion, more often than not, it won't.

That's my opinion and my case, please don't judge me if I'm wrong about anything, these observations of mine are based on battles that I've observed. 

Many units have multiple weapons, some which can attack T1 and above, others limited to T2 etc. Not every weapon can necessarily attack a specific target that you choose.

Each weapon has a priority order for what tier unit to attack, as some weapons would be more efficient at taking out T1, and do next to nothing on T2 or T3.

It makes sense with the way it is set up, you wouldn't want a Prometheus to go into battle, offload its main weapon at a medic wastefully killing it a dozen times over, then spit at the enemy dreadnought with its secondary peashooters.

Make sure you have some T1 killers in your army such as a Zeus to quickly take care of any pesky medics.

That said, being able to override this mechanic and focus fire would be beneficial in many circumstances.

hahaha guys/girls

@Chief hehehe, ofc in normal and most cases I make my army out of more than just Noughts  

what would a good army consist of, in numbers, for you?

usually I go with like 15 Brutes, 10 Meds, 4 Apollo and then mixture between Zeus, Artemis and Nemesis

@Moomo yes, that would make sense, IF it actually worked that way...

my scenario 2 was actually where the Prometheus was in my main base, so obviously I wanted to target it first, but they kept on spamming the few Brutes he had with him and even the Incursion that kept being spammed in and not part of the Prometheus' army... to make things worse, as mentioned, the computer seems to target fine because the Substrate version of the Nemesis, makes quick work of taking out my Nemesis in an army, but if I want them to target their's, they fail...

this is also kind of part of my second issue... when you are engaging a Siege Dreadnought (forgot the name) and it's in an army, you will get owned by it simply because if you were to ie say Attack Move towards the Siege Nought, obviously it is going to target everything in the way of your A Move... so to counter this, you try and just do a normal Move order round about where the Siege is to get closer to it, but then your guys don't attack as useful and you get slaughtered.... not to mention the fact that the Siege Nought can retreat so fast even while firing, and the idea of it's "artillery" being more of a 'homing rocket' attack... ai ai

btw, in what order do you guys use your Quantum? mix it up or just go full on Logistics first, then?

@ BFCOTC

I actually don't build medics very often, even in late game. I have a constant build order with my factories which makes a pretty decent balance in units, I don't really think of the number of units, I just think "That's 4 build queues, let's send them somewhere." Though I'd rather not disclose my build queues b/c I've found a formula that works for me and I'd rather not let anyone else have it     

Though I have contingencies for countering enemy armies, if they don't have an air force or air factory, I still make the Apollo just in case or if they have drones but they go way down on the queue in the cruiser factory like, for every 2 of everything there is one Apollo and then for every 3 Hades there's one fighter (forget the name). If they're rushing frigates, I rush Artemis and Zeus. If they rush cruiser, I rush nemesis and archers, the list goes on. Though, If we're going to talk about strategy, I think we should open a new post 

For Quantum, I do logistics right off the bat to save me time from having to hear the machine (whom I lovingly call Karen) nag about logistics. After that I get logistics 3rd, and then whatever else I need or I can afford

There are a few different ways that I start with logistics.

Sometimes first quanta goes to logistics. Sometimes I spend immediately on weapon damage and push out expansions hard, focus on T1 until quanta has built up for more logistics, then roll out the T2 production.

Battle positioning also matters. 

If if you have one big ball, not all units in that army head to the front. They surround the large units. That is especially true of the medics; who, if not in an army, will rush forth and die first for some dumb reason.  

All units also have range. Which means if you have a dread enemy surrounded by units, you could split up your forces, and surround it from a distance rather than clicking on it to attack as a ball. The armies will peal off anything within range, which can be those medics if you aren't in range of the Dread. 

It's not quite 'micro targeting' but is a form of micro unit management. 

Not commenting on OP but to the quanta spending.

i have been experimenting with using quanta to rush probing force + engineer. This build order is a much more effective start it seems.

on maps where you can capture metal and radioactive right off the bat it would like this:

build engineer + boost 

capture both and build factory at radioactives and queue all metal extractors including base

when building those is done use both engineers to build orbital fabricator

spawn probing force to capture one way and factory production to go the other. Leftover quanta is used for engineer to accompany probing force

I am trying to understand this better.  I just right-click on the unit I want them to focus fire on and they do it.

lol

ok, so after the first reply, I realized my phrasing to be incorrect...

it's not really manual targeting, but also not focused fire, in a sense...

I basically want to be able to choose my own target in an army/group...

because Frogboy, when you "just right-click" on a 'unit', they don't go for the unit, they go for the army/group it is in...

and if that isn't the case with you, then there must be a major bug on my side...

@Takenmdown that sounds like a good tactic, but it becomes costly to keep doing that (in terms of quanta)

you would also need lots of Quantam to generate quicker

@BFCOTC 

you dont keep using it. You only make 1 probing and 1 engineer using quanta. Just to kickstart everything

because you end up with 3 engineers you can also quickly make 1 quantum generator to get your logistics upgraded when needed.

its great. I promise

@Frogboy

No, that's not how it works at all. If I right click on a healer in an army, units will just fire on anything in that army and ignore the healers.

Ah I see what are getting at.  Yea, an army is treated as a single unit.  That is supposed to be the advantage of building an army is that the other units can effectively screen it lest the game be about who can micro the best.

The implication being made in this thread is that the AI is cheating and can target units in an army.

where?

if 9 out of 10 times, you encounter something that is not supposed to happen, or rarely supposed to happen, what conclusion will you draw?

if I wanted to imply that, I would have just said so

ok, let's agree on something... making an army is an awesome setup and all

the only problem with it, and something that has been mentioned, is that maybe units should get a "priority fire" command or something like a "kill order list"

with smaller units I guess you can leave them be so as to be good fodder or to take out other smaller units, however, Frigate and Dread should start focus on other Dread/Frigate, but in say the case of the Nemesis (whatever the other faction has), should also start on Dread... if you get my drift

Well I would think that is exactly what a Nemesis does: target dreds first. And if it doesn't that should be fixed. I like that you cannot pick off the individual units that are making your life difficult. It means that composition (and research and orbitals) is more important than it otherwise would be. If there is an imbalance because X is too powerful unless you do Y, which is way more expensive to achieve, that is a balance issue. Balance is a constant thing, but it is appropriate to have strong repeatable evidence that there is an imbalance first. It cannot be a preference thing.

And I think that is an admirable thing to avoid Frogboy, but with this coupled with all the games other features or lack thereof, it really feels like the only  meaningful thing you control with your metaunits is your armies' composition. I think there has to be a happy compromise made with micro, as currently the game is an exercise in pondering rock paper scissors, although, I will say, that it is a strangely enjoyable despite that.  With micro avoided to the degree it currently is, the game is addicting and hypnotic in its own way, but it is certainly lacking in what most normal humans would call "fun".  

Please, as much as possible, don't make this ground based Sins.  Please, I beg you! (Not that there was anything wrong with sins, it's just that it s combat wasn't the main attraction)

If they add a little micro, one thing I think they could do to liven things up is stances. Aggressive means long leashes, defensive means short. Retreat means higher combat speed, no return fire, and serious meat shields. Punch-through means break the enemy line of units and try to get to the ones in the rear, but perhaps take more damage. I don't know if any of this fits within the vision of the devs and even if it does I doubt it would take the form I'm envisioning.

Option number two is to upgrade the reinforcement system so you can 1. count on it to do what you want, and 2. fine tune your compositions. That there is probably enough micro in itself to keep many happy, and it fits well with the current gameplay mechanics.

So far the devs have been doing a good job of giving out patches and free maps. I know story/scenarios are next, plus multiplayer improvements. I'd like to know what big plans they have for the next major iteration of gameplay improvements. The roadmap doesn't have anything game-altering before the first expansion, unless you include version 1.4 which is player-requested features. Well devs, the two things above are my requested features: stances and a very strong reinforcement system.

So I have just installed Ashes and this was the first thing I noticed. I have very little experience so far as I have only played through the tutorial mission but one thing I do know is that my medics died first every single fight (even though I sent them in last every single fight). If the AI used the same prioritization as what everyone is saying our units do, I doubt this would have happened.

I love the army design for unit management and definitely don't want a micro heavy game. I even feel that assigning group tactics my go to far, but I would like to see how it would play with a simplified micro component. Maybe a target-override hotkey so you can order your army to attack a specific unit for situations where you know you are at a heavy disadvantage from your composition but still want to stand a chance, or take out one important target.

If this breaks the Army concept though it shouldn't be done. There are simply too many units to expect players to micro, and I would much rather play a strategic game than a frantic one.

The AI uses the exact same targeting system and priorities as the human players.  

Viridae, under no case should you have loose medics if you want them to live.  If they are in an army they can't be specifically targeted any more increasing their survivability immensely.  If they are running around loose they can be targeted (this applies to any unit).  We used to have specific unit targeting even within an army, but it was too abusive and added a lot of micro to the game as pretty much every fight involved you specifically calling all shots as focus fire.

MasterChief, yes, you pretty much nailed the targeting priorities for the PHC in your post.