Why does everyone (AI) love me so damn much?

Sooo I think we all agree diplomacy needs work. Personally, I'm on the more radical side in that I want something very different, and as immersive as possible. I don't think diplomatic agreements should even be a "given" if offered at the right values.

But putting that aside, the current diplomacy model is a standard 4X bread and butter system. The unique-ish part being that you earn diplomacy and shift opinions by a certain amount of points, sometimes per turn.

I'm currently playing a game where I'm number 1 militarily, I've only destroyed 1 race, + a dreadlord colony, and I'm definitely going to murder more civilizations. I'm malevolent, and I have about 26 worlds, and my nearest opponent has 16. My tech isn't the most advanced in all categories, but I have way more logistics, plenty of carriers, and strategic resource infused ships than anyone else and I've built up at least 30 transports... 

 

And yet. They all love me. The other 13 opponents are all near the max happiness with my empire. One guy is at cordial... so I guess I'm going to murder him for his polite attitudes and insincere smiles. Note, I'm only trading with one faction.

Why? 

As far as I can tell? Because I built 3 diplomatic outposts on starbases, and maybe 5 embassies. 

 

Is this normal for other people? If so I start to understand why alliances are tech-locked, because it would be extremely easy to get a diplomacy victory with these conditions. 

 

Perhaps we need a "gang up on the leader if he is a human player" code for the AI. No one empire right now could hope to withstand me, but two or three out of these 13 would put me on the defensive for a while.

 

Granted I'm playing on Normal. But these are behaviors I would expect on normal no? 

28,483 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top


Perhaps we need a "gang up on the leader if he is a human player" code for the AI. No one empire right now could hope to withstand me, but two or three out of these 13 would put me on the defensive for a while.

 

NO. No stupid 'stampede the leader' mechanics; they're utterly immersion-breaking. 

 

The reason you're walking it is because those embassies are giving you a huge diplo bonus, which is applying +3 relations per turn. Note that it doesn't just set your relations to 3. It sets it to 3 higher than it was last turn, every turn. There's a diminishing return in play so that you can't just keep increasing to infinity, but I don't think it can actually cancel out a 3-point increase before you hit the +10 relations upper limit.

 

In all honesty, the easy way to counter this problem is to set Embassies up as a wonder; but that doesn't really deal with the problem, as all the other +3 things will still be in the game. Ideally, the relations slider need to be larger or the bonuses need to be smaller (they can't be, however, since they have no decimal places - but you CAN increase the scale to -100-100 fairly easily).

Reply #2 Top

Talk about first world problems... sheesh

Reply #3 Top

"NO. No stupid 'stampede the leader' mechanics; they're utterly immersion-breaking. "

 

I can see how this would break some immersion for some races, but every race should be trying to win. Perhaps this would be a useful personality trait. Think of how the Drengin and Yor allied to take down the terrans after the dreadlords. 

 

'Real politik' basically 

 

At any rate, Thanks for the answer, 3 per turn on a 10 point scale is pretty crazy. I'm not convinced that anything so passive should exist. Its much more satisfying when my actions dictate relations, not a building, certainly not a spammable building. 

 


Reply #4 Top

The problem is that there isn't really a real mechanic for diplomacy in GC3. It is basically a barter system, which does not scale much outside of obvious controllable factors. Since the development stages I had hoped for a real diplomacy mechanic, but we got stuck with a boring "1990s" system that doesn't challenge or immerse the player.  I keep hoping for really cool 'ok we got this guys' changes to the game, but the studio seems to be stuck in a time warp.  Each patch is a letdown as are the added features/restrictions. None of the mechanics in GC3 are next gen and adding support for 3d printers doesn't make the game or studio innovative.  Makes me wonder if they actually field the competition. 

Reply #5 Top

AI in this game is an overall disapointment. If it does not early bum rush me, he never stands any chance. I research diplomacy and manipulate the AI by creating open border, and other aggreements, send trade ship etc and even have them declare war on each other. And then I pick them off one or even two at a time by checking their ships and building ships and logistics which makes me able to defeat AI even if they are first in military and I am among the last.

The AI does not adapt and it does not plan ahead and "realise" who the biggest threat is under it is too late. Game is boring and repetitive as a result.

How to fix it? For one thing the AI should always scout out someone who is at bad therms with them, specially player empires, and then fit their ships accordingly. Then during war, they should keep doing that and adapting their ships to the opponent. It isn't that hard, there are only 3 main offensive weapons and 3 corresponding defensive measures.

Second, the AI should see players as a bigger threat, atleast on higher levels, and as such there should be a big diplomacy penalty whenever a player is dealing with an AI empire.

Third and finally, the AI should see if an Empire is way ahead and see it as a threat, unless it is allied with that "threat".

These three things, I believe would dramatically increase the difficulty of the AI. Giving it huge bonuses so it can bum-rush you, is just cheap and boring.

Reply #6 Top

IMO the best fix would be to have the low effort stuff make you neutral or friendly at best if your ideology is the same.  Getting better relations should take time and effort on your part.

 

For example, multiple trade routes, continual trades of strategic resources, helping in war, gifts, support in the UP and not trading with, helping, or allying with a races enemies.

 

I'd also like alliances to be possible at friendly but give them obligations so there is a cost to maintaining them.  This would definitely require a penalty for allying with a races enemies though or else it would make diplomatic victories even easier.

 

I'd also like to see a mechanic for races to declare war as a group on warmongers but I don't like the idea of the AI automatically attacking the leader.  It would hurt the non conquest victory conditions and break immersion (which probably doesn't matter to some but it's a big turn off for me).

Reply #7 Top

The game needs dialogue options (much like they appeared 'grey-out' in beta) and tied into these, more ways of gaining AND losing diplomacy scores. This wat, you could be the most powerful militarily, econimcally etc. but if you're a dick to your neighbours they will start a war with you. 

Reply #8 Top

i have a post where the idea is to use diplomats and spies to create perhaps, a really good diplomacy systems, thats why do Your self a favor and just read it.

Note it also is long but a very clever concept: (you will love it!! i can guarantee you that)

here is the link https://forums.galciv3.com/472507/page/1/#3595955

 

If the theory/idea, can work in galciv3, do you think it woulde be fun. ?

 

Reply #9 Top

Quoting naselus, reply 1

The reason you're walking it is because those embassies are giving you a huge diplo bonus, which is applying +3 relations per turn.

Remove that crap entirely, relations should be based entirely on what you do who you are what you represent and not on buildings or other constructed stuff

 

 

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Maiden666, reply 9

Remove that crap entirely, relations should be based entirely on what you do who you are what you represent and not on buildings or other constructed stuff

 

Meh, I don't object to the principle of having diplo bonuses from buildings, but those buildings should be heavily restricted (one per player, or even one per game) and the scale should be big enough to cope.

Reply #11 Top

Agreed. I think your earlier suggestion of making it a wonder, quite appropriate. 

Reply #12 Top

Maybe the diplomacy bonus could be given a new purpose?  Maybe reducing the length of negative modifiers (ie we were at war) and/or boosting the perceived value of trades.

Reply #13 Top

I purposely avoid building or researching anything diplomatic for fear of getting a stale game.

But that is about everything in this game currently. You need to go out of your way to not game the AI/system to have a game that will possibly be fun for a couple hundred turns.

Reply #14 Top

I find myself agreeing with the sentiment in this topic:  Diplomacy shouldn't directly modify relationships.  Instead, I would prefer a system where "skill in diplomacy" would affect your ability to negotiate treaties, trades, etc., which would eventually result in improved relations.  But you have to work for it!  Instead of the current system of "diplomacy = relationship," the diplomacy skill should modify one's ability to take actions which improve your relationships.

Reply #15 Top

Totally agree.

 

I want a more immersive conversation system (with a chance of failure) similar to something you might see in a Fallout or Skyrim game personally... but regardless, the current barter system is really easily manipulated and the whole "per turn" aspect of diplomacy factors isn't easy to see/measure as the player. Then, the buildings providing a direct bonus to ALL relationships is huge, not to mention the general bonuses/etc.

Where as a more simply stockpile/point system might actually work better.

For example:

Base relationship with a player of a opposing ideology = 0, same ideology = 20.

Every war you launch against another player of different ideology than the relationship partner? -10, same? -20. Do they like that person or hate that person? +/-10 in addition.

Every war you launch against the relationship partner? -50

Every planet you take? -points = % of empire relationship partner empire (they have two planets and you took one? -50 points).

Every gift you give? +2, every trade at "fair" value? -2, every trade at "Good" value 0, every trade at "excellent! its almost a gift!" +2

A single wonder Embassy? +1 every other turn?

Every trade route, +1 every other turn?

Go to war for this relationship partner when asked? +35

 

Point is, most of these are static, they can have different values based on the ideologies, and perhaps on the personality traits of the race, and basically, most things will make people hate you, but continuous trade, trade routes, and avoiding warring too often will get you in good standing. Treaties/etc. could eliminate some of the penalties for example.

Its a 2 bit system I cooked up in 3 minutes, but it basically uses the same systems GC3 has now. I just applied a little logic based on Naselus' incredibly valid point, that the whole system needs more room to work, 1-10 just isn't enough for values, 1-100 would give a lot more freedom for balancing this stuff a bit.