Look at this graph!

Sounds interesting... however, I don't see the graphs?

They are being added, I'm in the process of writing down data from a game I had by hand and then creating the graph around it, Took a bit longer, but like I said I wanted to gather information from the thread before straight posting the images.

http://puu.sh/krD3D/2acb5d60c5.png

here is another example

http://puu.sh/krEjc/fb367c0897.png here is an example of what I am creating per player (from a horrible by hand data set) 


Once I get the other 3 players finished I will be combining these graphs together in various formats to test viability of graphing formats, I did a prototype of a few metrics not shown here and the results were very readable and worth exploring.



This is a raw example, the next will be exploring Log version and percent versions going into like % increase of wealth per "tick" which allows better comparisons between players of unequal number values.


This is on going will continue to update this thread. 

This is a really cool visualization! I like the layout.

-Scott-

I'm pretty sure time series aren't the right solution for giving the spectators an idea of what's really going on. What matters when viewing a game aren't the long term series of absolute values, but the current state, the very short term relative trends, and event timings. Some of this information exists already in a central place, some is scattered around and often hidden behind tooltips, and some of it is not there at all. Examples of the missing things: How long before a player can reach the next HQ level / their first Offworld? How long a grace period does a player have to fix things before they drop to D bond rating? How much of their production is currently disabled / working / working but producing something useless?

So for example you could have something like the following summary boxes, with each player always having their own one always visible, and spectators being able to view this info for all players at the same time: http://snellman.net/tmp/otc/stats.html 

I suspect that with this kind of data you could also generate more meaningful post-game analysis graphs. For example what matters isn't really how many black market actions you got hit by. Especially early on it's not even the amount of production lost. It's the amount of time you lost in getting to the next upgrade.

for example

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/thumb/8/8b/Spectator05goldchart.jpg/250px-Spectator05goldchart.jpg?version=543c2091f52331b4fb7dcddc90dea02c

besides doing something like this http://puu.sh/krLFL/aa48ddbb09.png adding logos and images will really help show what is doing on.

 
I added this http://puu.sh/krEjc/fb367c0897.png to the above text as well which shows more total worth, But again this is from a single players perspective, 

The next step is finishing up the last players data and then running comparisons,





I agree, that game stats are extremely important, Specifically showing when building or upgrades are happening. (IE visual image on the graph like logo # for upgrade and Logo image for off world or building).

things like debt increase against profit are very interesting as well, Is players 1's debt increasing by 15000? and player 1 can only generate 5000? 

That is mostly what I will be finding out as I try to collect and create worth while graphics for both live presentation and Post match,

Thank you for the kind words Scott! I found that keeping the graph Left Stepped (instead of lined) worked better with my "grab" points. With line graphs you would end up with a visualization of "decreasing cash" before the actual expediter http://puu.sh/krLlL/bbae607ee5.png. With a higher "grab" rate, a line graph is more viable, But Since this is grabbing data by hand at increments I did not want to pause unpause every 2 seconds But thank you for your feedback! if you have any more thoughts or dislikes or comments please let me know!

and thank you Jesnell for your feedback as well, I agree that showing game states and milestones is very important. Good tooltips and consolidation of data information are always a plus!

Update To show what I mean

This is really rough I mean REALLY rough, but it shows the potential 

so here we have cash and resources against eachother per player (3 man game)

http://puu.sh/ks32G/741c0d66fc.png

without mile stones

http://puu.sh/ks35c/c74f6ce21e.png

compared to the normal stock price evaluation graph

http://puu.sh/ks35Z/80a29b35fd.png

as you can see while the stock price does follow the same trend's it does not really show as much as it could. the cash and resource graph better provides feedback to players on mistakes or what is going on in the game.

 Looking at stock price doesn't really answer what went wrong. However the resource graph does reflect this. The milestones can be added to any graph but showing them against resources and cash value fits better than against stock prices. 

I will continue posting and updating as I work and test but wanted to update here before I go to sleep.

i want these implemented! MORE GRAPHS, MORE!!!

I want these cash+resource graohs so bad as well as the vertical markers that indicate upgrades and buyouts.

We'll see what we can do. We don't have the resources to create every visualization people can think of, but when we have a concrete example like what KCIV has designed it's a lot easier to schedule.

KCIV - I bet you can't make another visualization! Or make your current one better!

-Scott-

Nice work!

Yes, I'd like to see graphs like that. Cash/Resources/buildings/debt often get coverted from one to another so it would be nice to see how those items are related to come up with the colony value and stock price. Having those on the same graph with the vertical event markers (upgrades, shorts/surpluses/offworld launches/etc) would make it much easier to understand what is going on and how growth is effected.

All of those should be included because towards the end of the game, there are large swings in cash. For example shorts/surpluses and the conversion of cash to resources and vice versa can have a strong impact on cash. You should be able to tell from the graph what event occurred that was the cause of the change in cash/debt and having an easier time telling if certain decisions were ultimately profitable.

BTW, debt needs to be negative cash, so its represented properly.

Yea I think they do have some promise but They could be better (working on that ;))

Also Wow thank you for your kind words!!!

And I agree that more milestones are important, The issue mainly is not the visualization but rather on the collection side of things, (I do my best by hand but it gets tedious fast ;))

I plan on adding a "top bar" where dots and pips with resource icon would represent more milestones (like the dota example with kills below the graph) one of the issues I am seeing is making the bars thick enough to determine color without losing the graph behind them.

http://puu.sh/kswzf/09b25e5145.png

this looks very interesting, but is not as readable as

http://puu.sh/kswC0/6241deb47a.png

I can easily make a negative debt graph but you lose some resolution in the upper portion, Let me throw an example together One of the issues with using the raw negative value is that it is harder to compare vs income, although Adding essentially a "double layer" graphic for income and debt DOES make it easier to compare 4 players together.  (instead of needed to split into 2 graphs).


I will play with using that idea (good one BTW) and see what comes up! here is a rough example with a solo player

http://puu.sh/kswlV/f66700dad2.png

I will update later today with a better version of this above (using the 3 player comparison) I have been testing out a "debt manageability metric" which is basically a percent against income. So its less about the raw value and more about How much debt are you getting vs your income, Its still being tested and I'm also playing with stacked and inserted graphics as well 

http://puu.sh/ksxwx/6001077bdf.png

^ that one is really really rough, and not sized properly But you can see that a stacked graphic (with milestones between both of these) may have the best visualization for showing a full range of data into 1 "graphic".

but this is more a info graphic than an actual graph. 

 But still! Exploring as much as I can :) 

as well as further work with other formats and ideas!

I also just got done watching tournament games, and my GOD some of them were fantastic!!! I can't wait to start digging into the data of these games!! 

Add my vote for the "MOAR GRAPHS" campaign please.  

BTW I just saw Beta 7 UI the other night. Fucking. Mother. Shit. Holy!!!!!!!! the graph display behind the resource value. BRILLIANT.

It completely adds a WHOLE aesthetic to the game that 10000% complements the entire feel and mechanics of the game. 

So here is where I run into issues.



This game is so complex, its gets very complicated very quickly.


Showing your income resource, Doesn't show your purchase power right? That is where stock matters.  

You can have 500k income a second, but if your enemies stock is 5x that the value of yours then his economy of 100k is of the same value as yours. (bad example but you can see what I mean)


 Here is an example of all the relevant information packed into 1 graphic http://puu.sh/ku9K2/9444e6b9a0.png And this is just not good looking.
This might contain all the information needed. But does not provide a good viewing experience (its hard to read) (Top being upgrades milestones, middle being stock, and bottom being cash + resource) This is just not a good format. (its being quickly thrown out ;))
 not to mention shitty color choice 

So what is being worked on is some sort of purchase power graphic compared against stock price, One of the biggest issues is the by hand process. All the data being played with is collected by hand, This severely hampers any real sort of collection and only really allows (reasonably) snap shot grabbing from games. But I will work with what I can! and by hand data collection is still very easy to run statistics on upgrade timings, and "BO" statistics as well.

back on point, the issue here is showing relative game power and strength, and help identify ways to show players more about what is going on.

Although http://pastats.com/chart?gameId=372739 is great for looking at stats, its so disconnected its rather hard to conceptualize what is going on. even trying to compare a few players together really gets too complicated to visualize.

So now we get to have some fun, Let us throw out every idea about graphics and think about How can we make something that shows the information we need to see which at minimum shows "cash+resource" or Income (no way to actually collect by hand income) "Stock price" which is essentially your defense, and then ideally Milestone markers such as upgrades and buyouts.

Its a shame this is not 1v1 it would be MUCH easier to visualize 1v1 data

So anyway back to this "blog" post. 

So now we are experimenting with percentages.  

http://puu.sh/kunnd/8db986498c.png

Now this really paints a different story compared to http://puu.sh/kunsE/a199a4482f.png. 

http://puu.sh/kuqxC/799f584d49.png

with added milestones (upgrades past 6 mean buyouts)

When we run the total "power" in the game (resources and cash) and compare each players percent of power, we can really see the "push" and "pull" of the economy. This still does nothing about the Power vs defense idea however this does show us some interesting angles in which to explore graphics.

They both show the same information however, the percent graph shows the information with a better resolution. 

But again we are not showing anything solid to the player, Yes we can see which line leads the pack, but That still doesn't show you as much as it should. 

 You can always do a Power (cash) vs Defense (stock) graphic but the metric values don't work well together and don't take things into account who owns what stock. At least not with traditional values, even if you ignore those cases in 4v4 you would need at least 2 metrics (min) per stock + more if each player has 3 investors. That gets too messy. 

So here is kinda the step I am at now.

 http://puu.sh/kusP6/09012760ef.png

I have 2 things ongoing in this graph, I have the raw rash + resource data, Which shows you just how massive PB had in economy spike, (shows it better than percents Although the percent data is more a collection issue than a value issue but ANYWAY).

The curves lines are fitted Gaussian data from stock prices. Stock prices to me are the "defense". Now here is where it gets tricky and I need to do some very specific testing of this.

Does the raw economic cash+resource graph when shown ABOVE a Gaussian fit correctly represent when attack power "cash resource buyout power" is above Defense (stock price)

That will be what I do tomorrow. If this does at least semi accurately reflect this?  The question will be what does it mean, and is this even useful or applicable to anything.


Sorry for the long post. This is basically just my ramblings and posting every terrible idea I have had.

If anyone has more ideas, or like "hey have you considered this?" or "have you tried that" I would much appreciate it! the amount of data in a 4p game is incredibly high. 

While I can create fantastically in depth 1v1 player graphs (for both post and live games) it does not scale to 4p games very well.
Of course it is possible that the solution  


ideally something like this is great for a 1v1 match http://puu.sh/kutfw/88847023b0.jpg 

but quickly turns into http://puu.sh/kuth9/434fadbf51.jpg

This is more or less what I will more than likely end up with (triple stack graph) to show each unique data metric http://puu.sh/kutk2/a329f6c11c.jpg

 but oh baby I want one of these so bad http://puu.sh/kutlW/8c8d4e7d06.png

for each upgrade stage. XD 


As I have been collecting I am noticing other common trends (that are not worth graphing yet) but I am noticing that upgrade lvl 5 is almost always around the 50% mark. So "mid game" -> "end game" is usually 50% of the game. But that is a whole other post waiting to happen!

Here are some of the replays from yesterday and today. Hope Zultar has the other ones:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6EedPhe_2HTZXdEaEtOdVNRbWc/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6EedPhe_2HTczRHQW14T215MDQ/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6EedPhe_2HTZk1TX3VlaDF4ZmM/view?usp=sharing

First off thank you so much soren for those replays!

Here is a export from cubit win game 1, (day 2)

http://puu.sh/kvzyx/6d9572298f.png

here is a more accurate version

http://puu.sh/kvArY/288a75cd79.png <- for some reason the bar graph stopped displaying correctly so I moved it to a scatter instead of a bar.

but its not as clean (the blocks are upgrades (past 5 is a buyout)

As you can see I'm testing out a few formats and metrics.


The "filled" lines are debt, against the solid lines (cash+resrouce) and then the bar graph is the defense (buy out), Trying to track who owns what portion of stock gets too complicated fast, So I just retain the full value of the company and the "line" will show how much of that total is "skipped"

This graphic does not include milestones, (and it should) That is where I would probably add a secondary layer or Photoshop line do have the custom line across these graphics.



This is a short post, but its a quick update. 

In the second image, the stock price graph on the bottom makes sense to me. At the time I purchased SG, cubit had higher cash + current resource reserve reserves. Meanwhile, I had a much higher stock value since I had been previously purchasing shares of other people's stock rather than stockpiling resources. This doesn't definitevely answer the question of whether a buyout was wise or not. But, it does point to the possibility that it was less risky for me than cubit (I had high stock value). Meanwhile, a purchase was less likely to benefit me than cubit (he had more resources to put new tiles to work on things like hacker arrays / offworlds rather than farms / silicon I built). The debt indication (shaded region) is also very nice... it clearly shows the period where cubit consolidated his economy prior to my frist buyout. If i had achieved a buyout 1 day earlier, I might have had time to reap the rewards before cubit could start accumulating tons of cash rather than paying off his debt. Still, I would have needed time to get up enough OW keep up with cubit's rather scary production rate around the day 10 mark.

What does your efficiency graph measure? What are the units on the vertical scale? If this is reporting the efficiency of claim usage, it woudln't mean much to me. A scientific or scav player will alway appear to be stronger than a robotic or expansion. Would you rather own one Steakhouse selling $50 steaks or 200 McDonald's chains selling $5 hamburgers? 

When I think of the instantaneous production value of the entire ecomony, I think of it this way:

• Income rate (in $/s) = sum (each tile's production rate - each tile's input consumption rate) - life support expense rate - debt payment rate (approximated to $/s)

If you are reporting the efficiency as some function of net income and net consumption, please explain how this is calculated and which log file values I can explore to better understand. However you formulate the top graph for instantaneous production, it would be nice to see indicators of techs compeltion (like the boxes for colony levels). In that game, i had purchased a dozen or so techs, which would have come into play more the longer the game went on. I suspect if those were added to the plot, it woudl highlight that my mid late-game production potential (first derivative of production rate) was quite higher than those without engineering but still far behind a purely offworld based economy.

GOOD WORK!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


I CAN FINALLY POST AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)))))


I have a response for you Wino (gotta type it up) and then also an update!

Eff is simply total resources (cash + resources) / structures. Its nothing more than to show how much you are generating when you expand or build structures (mostly around rotation of buildings and such)

not sure if its going to stay, but that is what it is.

as for the equation, Simply put I can't calculate that, All the data I have is collected by hand so I gather "snap shots" every X time and then hand copy the data out of the game. 

because the data takes so long to collect complicated things like that would be almost impossible for me to practically do. However if a real collection process of CSV export were supposed every tick of the clock then hell ya!


I have your second games data as well but my software ran into a layer bug :/

I will post that as soon as possible! 


 

http://puu.sh/kB9F2/23caf6a376.png

This is the Cubit win number 2.

 Finally software fixed its bug! <3 

So here we see an issue, The game ended with a double buy out from cubit, We can clearly see his economy growing much higher than the others.
 But because he had been buying up stock He didn't need to have economy larger than the stock value.

This is where a Stacked bar graph would be better to display Stock but it would be way too complicated to evaluate the unique value Per player.

Sooo my struggle begins anew as I try to find a way to show value of stock vs each opponent correctly. 
 

What do you guys think so far?

Should we work on simplifying the graphics into 2 displays? Should I remove the efficiency stacked portion and replace it with a complicated stock graphic?

I will be going back through and re evaluating each metric again. Hopefully to find something new! I would appreciate any feedback on what is good what is bad what would be nice and such. 

I feel like having multiple graphs and keeping each one fairly simple is what we should be aming for so that you can figure out roughly what happened at a glance. Afterall, we have an insane resource graph in the game and no one ever uses that

This isn't something that would be used in a powerpoint presentation or anything like that, we have space to play around with stuff. The graphs target audience to me is weaker players or people who simply watch, they want to have an idea of what happened in the game, what the specific turn aroudn points are etc. It would be ncie to have deep graphs for the players who played as well but ultimately graphs won't get used if they look too hard to use, and this is supposed to be a visual learning aid for the game, and a way to reflect on its outcome.

Well said, 

I am starting to think this as well. Having (for example) 3 extremely simple but clear graphs on unique aspects of the game would be great to toggle between them,

IE (cash+resource, Stocks, Debt) and such. 

Good feedback  

of course the single graph the dream can't be given up


if only this was a 1v1 game, It would be so much easier to graph it

I'm gunna give the stock graph a hard pass and see what I can come up with.  Thank you good sir :) 

Okay so this will more less be a double post with "look at this graph"


 http://puu.sh/kG1Xk/6bf4a8c89b.png

 here is a super fast and shitty graph from game 4, Super fast game. (5 day game)

top portion of the graph is center upgrades so when you see a dot and a 0 dot on the upper portion that implies a buy out. PB makes the first purhase of cubit at 3.5 and then another purchase at 4.5  (around just after 4.0 but the 12 hour snapshot missed the needed data)


As you can see, PH makes the first purchase of cubit and then quickly makes the second purchase of blues. 


So I did a tick my tick data grab of a specific time frame of the stock play around PB buy out of cubit. 

http://puu.sh/kG1WZ/f343212af6.png

Okay so what we can see here is how quickly PH bought out Cubit (less than 1 day of ticks)

If we could have access to this level of data for an entire game it would be very very easy to run stock graphics.

I would be able to stack 4 of these together into 1 visualization into "stock defense" as well as showing resources comparisons and other such graphics for a total of 2 graphics.

Anyway its been a long night, so if this post makes no sense let me know I did this rather quickly. If I can make 4 of those stock graphics into 1 visuaization I think I would be on something super solid

(like data graphic for soren, Pb, Blues, Cubit) each one getting their own "section" graphic.