Fog of war

After playing a few matches I firmly believe that a fog of war that allows you to see the battlefield (grayed out unless you have vision) is a much needed feature.  In the future I find it rather improbable that they could not properly get a satellite image of the battlefield.  On the gameplay side of things it would help to form better strategies from the get go as you could see possible choke points, better spots for bases, etc.  Just a quick note I had after a few matches.

A couple other quick things, Victory points and the size of the squares surrounding buildings.  I believe the number of VP needed to win right now is far too small, in fact I am not a fan of them in the first place.  I can see where they would be necessary on extremely large maps but on these smaller scenarios it makes the game end prematurely.  

As for the size of the squares surrounding buildings, I feel that most should be shrunk down a good amount in order to more accurately reflect the size of the building being placed. 

 

Cheers,

Sarge

74,038 views 18 replies
Reply #1 Top

Kinda funny, and easily attributable to this being alpha, if you tilt the camera so your point of view passes through a mountain, you can see the whole map!

Reply #2 Top

I did notice that bug but I also noticed it had already been reported a few times so I left it out. Honestly I used it more than a couple times to scout terrain ahead :P

Reply #3 Top

I would like to agree on all points. Normal fog of war would be great, I hate having to constantly check to see if i need to readjust where my units are going to get them right on the capture points since you can't see them to start with. Speaking of capture points, i think the capture range should be increased slightly as well, trying to maneuver units around it to get them all contributing is a game in itself.

 

The game ends early even on the large map we have. Usually only get a couple decent sized fights in before it ends.

 

I put the buildings right next to each other regardless of what the square shows. They work fine so the squares just need to be readjusted.

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Reply #4 Top

Absolutely agreed. Starting with a blacked-out map just gives a huge advantage to someone who has memorized the map, which is not good. The map should start with all terrain revealed, but with fog of war regarding enemy units and buildings.

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Reply #5 Top

I agree with this completely, I'd much rather have Fog of War while still being able to see the map.   I suppose a unique and cool way they could do it would be to do a wireframe landscape that loaded the actual map textures as you advanced.  That way you could see the whole map, get the sort of feeling like "the computer knows the terrain is like this" but then as your troops on the ground can actually see it you can as well.

I think it would fit with the way the "radar" is currently working where it gives you a 2D blue wireframe where sensor targets show up as a lighter color blue.  This could just be a placeholder thing, but hey I thought it might be neat to just run with it?  Anyway I don't know how technically feasible or even popular it would be, but it's a thought.

Edit:  I just checked and the radar units DO actually show depth with their wireframe, it's just difficult to tell.

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Reply #6 Top

Quoting tatsujb, reply 6

It's EXACTLY the type of micro Oxide claimed they would attempt to never have in this game.

Dont think they have said that, i just think you should just be able to right click a control point and stuff would just go there to capture it.

 

 

Reply #7 Top

Quoting tatsujb, reply 8

another (for combat) would be making units much faster and projectiles slow and very very prone to miss without target-leading and have all the units have their own target leading.

This was the case in Supcom. it's very clever because you can of course micro units to hit a specific point but your own unit's AI was already doing something infinitely better than what even the topmost starcraft II player could ever manage in terms of micro.

This is perhaps not the best thread for this, but this is a very important point regarding micro.

The best way to do this type of large-scale warfare is not to build units that are inherently un-microable (e.g. perfect aim, unresponsive movement, etc.) but instead to give them AI that is better at micro than you are. And simultaneously to give the player so many units that micro is just not feasible.

It is still very important to have tactically interesting combat, even if the player is not going to manually manage the tactics of every engagement, both because the AI is dependable and because it is mechanically infeasible. Strategic decisions should take notice and take advantage of tactical features on the small scale. Like making the observation that arrows don't fly well when it's raining prompts a savvy commander to choose to attack into enemy archers in bad weather conditions. Interesting oddities of tactical combat can be writ large over an entire army, and actually have a significant impact on strategic decisions.

There are lots of ways to have tactically interesting combat that theoretically the player could micro. Maybe a unit fires a linear projectile in a straight line, which would make it scale weirdly against small numbers of fast units juking left to right, but pretty dependable against tightly packed groups of the same type of unit. Weapons with dispersion patterns, deliberately inaccurate weapons, splash damage, dodgy guidance, and other features can have a big impact on the strategic aspect of the game.

The philosophical difference is that if you have 10,000 units it is patently obvious that Starcraft style micromanagement is likely not going to mean much in the grand scheme, and that's even assuming you can outperform their AI. Which is doubtful, since AI is potentially VERY good at mechanical tasks, like shot dodging, aiming, or target firing. I want to see lots of inaccurate weapons, lots of missed shots, patterned attacks, with units in pitched battle moving around actively engaging the enemy, both trying to deal damage and avoid taking damage. Every projectile is simulated- you're already paying the price necessary to implement this kind of combat, why not actually do it, rather than infrequent firing of highly accurate, normal, boring weapons?

 

This has the side benefit of making the actual unit fights interesting to watch because the outcome, although relatively deterministic, is actually more difficult to predict than a direct comparison of force size. Clever stratagems and tricky plays can let you win battles despite being outnumbered or outgunned.

The converse of this is that if you make a completely bland blob where units deal consistent DPS perfectly with no special behaviors or properties, then you know exactly what is going to happen strictly based on force size.

The opportunity to outmaneuver the opponent by fighting a tactically superior, highly efficient battle is greatly reduced, because the way you "win" a battle is by deploying more units to fight it. And the only way to gain a real edge is by destroying soft targets for free. In a normal game you won't typically get far ahead just by repeatedly colliding armies, at least until you outproduce your way into an army advantage and start winning each successive battle more decisively than the last.

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Reply #8 Top

Quoting X-Astra, reply 5

I agree with this completely, I'd much rather have Fog of War while still being able to see the map.   I suppose a unique and cool way they could do it would be to do a wireframe landscape that loaded the actual map textures as you advanced.  That way you could see the whole map, get the sort of feeling like "the computer knows the terrain is like this" but then as your troops on the ground can actually see it you can as well.

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I think it would fit with the way the "radar" is currently working where it gives you a 2D blue wireframe where sensor targets show up as a lighter color blue.  This could just be a placeholder thing, but hey I thought it might be neat to just run with it?  Anyway I don't know how technically feasible or even popular it would be, but it's a thought.

Edit:  I just checked and the radar units DO actually show depth with their wireframe, it's just difficult to tell.

These are all great points/suggestions.  I have never understood terrain-inclusive "fogs of war" in modern planet-based strategy games.  It makes sense to some degree in space 4X, but not for planet-based battles.  

For my part, I do not know enough about the "seeding" process to form a clear opinion.  

If we want to get technical with this thing, maybe we say that Haalee fired off millions of autonomous probes into the universe back when all was well.  These probes move from solar system to solar system searching for planets.  Once a planet is identified, the probe transmits the location, topography, and other information about the planet back towards "humanity", and then moves on.  The signal could be on an "open frequency" so to speak, since Haalee designed the probes at a time when nobody was at war.  This could help explain why all of the factions learn about planets at the same time and then rush to send out seeds.  What it doesn't explain is the existence of the creeps or Computronium refinery thingies on new planets, which I kind of loathe anyway.  I think you'd be better off with an indiginous threat of some kind and "raw" looking resources that you have to develop vs. resources defined as they are now with weird "shafts" already in the ground.

It may be that there's part of the seeding process that I don't currently understand that explains the creeps, pre-existing mining shafts, etc.  Maybe whatever sent those things jams your communications and planet-mapping abilities.  Who knows lol.

Anyway, the probe concept supports knowledge of a planet's terrain at the beginning of the engagement, and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the concept of a 2D terrain wireframe -- it would look slick and be unique in this genre.

On the satellites point, satellites cut both ways, right?  If you can shoot a satellite into space, it should be able to see not only the terrain, but enemy units too.  Thus, I think showing terrain but not enemy units via a satellite launch makes sense.  Perhaps satellite tech could be researchable -- as well as way to shoot down satellites deployed by your opponent?  The recent Sid Meir's "Beyond Earth" game had a sattelite dimension to it.  I did not really care for it though, because it seemed a little far fetched.  In a game like AoS, I think satellite's should be kept pretty basic.  Offensive satellites or satellites that confer defensive bonuses do not make much sense to me. The idea of being able to deploy recon satellites, though, and to shoot them down, would make a lot of sense.  I would probably wet myself if the satellites you deploy actually move across the planet's like a real one ones do, until they are shot down.    

 

 

Reply #9 Top

I like starting surrounded by total darkness. Exploring the unknown like in TA. They have said there will be loads of maps and even possibly semi-random ones too (I think) so for casual players it will be fun to explore them. I guess most people in these threads are not so casual though so I can understand if you have a different view. If it was just greyed out it would be OK too but as they obviously have the tech in place I hope they atleast keep the options of blacked out.

Reply #10 Top

The problem with blacked out is that it does nothing to someone who already knows the map layout inside and out. In fact it gives that person a huge advantage over someone who is playing that map for the first time- which is likely if there are going to be thousands of maps.

 

Consider how this will play out- someone is hosting a lobby in a map they are familiar with, and some poor fool joins and is unfamiliar with the map.

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Reply #11 Top

With the opening of the Map Editor, and the goal of having enough maps that the same one rarely shows up regularly, the black maps make sense.  Most people will be at the same disadvantage figuring out which map they are on or exploring a new map entirely.  As for those people who have memorized every map, every game has those and they are just someone you have to learn to deal with. 

A massive number of user designed and tested maps will make for "infinite" worlds to fight over.

Reply #12 Top

Everyone is talking about "with the map editor" but didn't Stardock say it was only for the founders and "probably" not going to be available to the public?

Reply #13 Top

I lose patience with the argument that it didn't work before, it won't work now.  Ashes might be of the same genre as the games people keep comparing it to, but it is a new game with technology that we have never seen before.   It was stated right in the opening post here that they wanted a pile of user defined maps for the map rotation, so who are we to say they can't get it done because this other game couldn't do it?  

If I wanted to play Sins or Galactic Civ, I would go do that some more.  Time for something new.

Reply #14 Top

A few quick responses:

re: FoW - This is something we've discussed a bit internally already, but haven't made any final decisions on. What I'd like to see is the 2-layer FoW for single-player scenarios and the single stage for multiplayer (so that you don't waste time just finding out the layout).

re: Map Editor - We haven't even unofficially released this; some of you just got inspired and unlocked it on your own. :P  It's definitely not ready for prime time and is not supported externally at present. If you are playing around with it, be aware that you may need to regenerate your maps down the line as we make changes to the terrain system.

re: Unit Movement/behavior - This is a work-in-progress. Definitely not finished yet! :)