Post 1.02 Manufacturing and Research Buildings...

Good post.

I agree with this line of thought. The adjacency bonus is a perk when it works out, but it isn't so strategic you just have to have adjacency... The balance on this being a work in progress, I hope the devs take input like this to heart.

I certainly think the adjacency bonus is a great distinctive characteristic of GCIII compared to its predecessor, and I think it works okay as it is. But I don't think it has reached its full potential yet.

you're right about the thulium archive, that's fairly weak. 

i disagree with everything else you wrote, though.

solar plants are hardly useless. they are at the same tech level as the mega factory. a solar plant adjacent to 3 manufacturing buildings is on par with a mega factory and much cheaper to build (45 points vs. 30+45+67 points over 3 turns). 

fusion plants are really good. with only one adjacent mfg building they are already better than the manufacturing plant at the same tech level. with 3 or more adjacent buildings they are superior to the industrial sector (final tier). and much cheaper to build than the equivalent factory.

research boosters are a bit weaker, but still worthwhile with 2 or more adjacenct res buildings.

not sure about the durantium refinery. last time i played it had a +4 total production bonus, but maybe that was changed once again recently. with the +4 bonus it was definitely worth it. using some adjacency to other mfg buildings, you basically get a slightly weaker factory that makes the whole economy of the planet better by a large factor. +4 total is like a +40% to everything for some small-ish new colony and still easily a +20% (or more) bonus for a mature planet with a population of 20 billion. not bad at all. 

The durantium factory will become even weaker now that total production from the population now = population, not 2*(P^.7) as it was before. A plante of population 20 billion now has base production of 20, so that is only +10% boost to that total, not +20% as per above.

But they still kick butt with low population colonies.

I believe the new formula for population / production breaks even at around 15 pop - so in fact a planet with 20 pop will be better off than it was before. Also remember that the +2 (previously +4) from durantium is also subject to all multipliers (so becomes +2.5 with 100% approval I believe) and then gets the benefit of all factory / colony / relic multipliers on top.

It was quite a hard nerf though from +4 down to +2 and 1 less adjacency benefit too I think. It is borderline value now while it remains at a 150 build cost - certainly not worth an early build option as you can build 5 basic factories for the same cost.

I am so confused.   I thought the following (which is apparently incorrect):

  The adjacency bonus was/is +1 to the base number.

  The base buildings could only apply their percentage to their "base" number. 

  The 1 per colony buildings applied their percentages to all of the buildings on the planet. 

  The 1 per colony building also applied their +x adjacency bonus to the base numbers of the adjacent buildings. 

Based on the information above, you just spam research labs or factories and placement doesn't really matter because the base number is determined by something else and the per colony buildings provide less benefit and cost more. 

ok i'll try to clarify the system a bit for you

the adjecncy bonus is the the number shown on the building - basic labs and factories usually have a +1 research resp. a +1 manufacturing bonus. that means if you put 2 factories next to each other, they both get +1. that bonus works in multiple directions - if you build a third factory adjacent to the other 2 (i.e. the 3 hexagons form a triangle), each of the 3 factories now gets a +2 bonus. 

once per colony builings work exactly the same way, but they usually have a higher adjacency bonus since they are supposed to be something special. if you put a solar plant next to a factory, the factory gives a +1 to the plant and the plant gives a +2 to the factory.

the power plant does NOT give its bonus to all buildings on the planet. 

each level of adjecency is worth 5%. i.e. 2 basic factories next to each other have a native manufacturing bonus of 50% (25% each) and as a reward for placing them next to each other, you get a 10% manufacturing bonus (2* 1 adjacency) on top of that. if we examine our "3 basic factories in a triangle" example, you'll notice that 3 factories getting a +2 bonus is actually the equivalent of 30% mfg bonus, so by cleverly placing them in a triangle, the 3 factories give you more manufacturing than 4 factories in random tiles with no adjacency.

in short -placement does matter, since without grouping the buildings, you don't get the adjacency bonus, so the planet will have a lower output compared to the same planet with "correct" building placement.

since the bonus of the spammable standard labs/factories is always +1 (or 5%), the adjacency bonus is (relatively) more powerful in the early game and loses some of its importance as the game progresses. for example - 2 basic factories with the bonus give you 60% manufacturing instead of 50%, but two industrial sectors (the highest upgrade of the factory) next to each other give you 160% bonus rather than 150% bonus, whiich is a lot less dramatic. it's still a free 10% bonus, so you might as well pick it up.

i guess that's all there is to it, really. but feel free to ask if something is still confuding

So let me ask this.

I will grab a Ghost world or one at least +25% bonus to research. Regardless of bonus you are saying that....

In the center of a research circle, I am better off with a 'standard' research building that can upgrade rather than the Technological capital. Is this what you are saying?

I will usually build my tech cap where I can surround it with labs and have one or two manufacture centers and two farms and a hosp on it. After completely done upgrading I can usually get about 180 research points or more depending on faction perks (like relics for +10%)

Somehow it does not sound right that the Tech capital is lame compared to a regular upgrade-able  lab. 

I don't know that the OP is saying they are lame...

I think the capitals are generally worth it, but they are a bit expensive early on.

if you have a full circle (i.e. 6 adjacent tiles), each point of adjacency bonus the building in the center *provides* is worth 30%. if you put the manufacturing capital or a fusion plant (+3 adjacency) on a tile surrounded by 6 manufacturing buildings, that's a 90% manufactuing bonus. so a fusion plant in that setup is effectively worth 140% of manufacturing boonus (50% (base) +90% from the adjacencies it provides). an industriial sector (top tier factory) in that tile is 75% base + 30% adjacency - so it's clearly worse.

even if we don't have a full circle but rather a "half circle" (4 tiles with the 2 tiles in the center being adjacent to 3 othre tiles each), the fusion plant provides 45% adjacency + 50% base (i.e. 95% total) while an industrial sector provides 75% base + 15% from adjacency -> 90% total. 

I disagree. This entire post is off-base.

The colony-unique buildings don't need to be "better" than the regular building if you're only making 1 of that type of building.

Who says it should be that way? You? You who?

The design is extremely apparent: the colony-unique buildings are obviously intended to be strong when you rack up adjacency bonuses. They are weak when you don't ... ok?

You have a problem with the Thulium Data Archive? I can see that as somewhat legit -- almost all the strategic-resource-required buildings are rather meh. By the time you get the resource to spend on the build, and find a good place for the building, you've already exceeded the tech level where those buildings are strong. The only one that remains relevant is the Elerium Defense Shield, since few buildings give high adj bonus to Mil (and you want to stack that Shrinker, amirite??).

However, I still used a Thulium Data Archive for its >1 adj bonus to enhance my Galaxy-unique research building. Levels on that grant the %mod to all my planets, so every level I can get on it is valuable.

That rare case aside, the strategic resource buildings = shrug, don't care. Could definitely use tuning upwards, but not a big a deal.

On the Manufacturing side, the Fusion Power Plant is highly competitive against the regular building -- IIRC if you get two adjacencies with manufacturing buildings, it is more efficient per tile than the regular building at its tier. The Solar Plant is almost good enough (IIRC it takes like 3 adj tiles).

The last Quantum Power Plant is actually better than a single regular manufacturing building. IIRC it's 100% to the regular building's 75%, before you start talking adj bonuses. I actually think the QPP is overpowered and the base value should be nerfed to 75% or possibly lower (70%?), with its adj bonus dropped to 3 and the regular manufacturing building bumped up a notch (perhaps to 80% or 85%).

The only part of the building numbers balance that confuses me at the moment is that the research Colony-Unique (Innovation Complex) is so much weaker than the Quantum Power Plant. If you have a single tile for research, the regular building is better. The Innovation Complex is only efficient at something like 3 adjacencies (or when you are specifically pumping another tile up in particular). On the flip side as I already mentioned, the QPP is efficient all by itself. Its adj bonus is also nuts.

My point of this post was two point out two things, both based on the math of the current situation:

(1) the "resource"-based improvements (Refinery/Archive) are really not a good deal by any definition;  they cost way too much in the early game, cost you a valuable resource, and don't provide any more benefit than the quickly-obtained Tier 2 improvements.   They've been nerfed too much.  I don't expect to make them worth-while beyond mid-game, but they're too expensive for early game now, and they don't provide any real benefit beyond the first 25-35 turns.

(2) The current math says that the one-per colony improvement are FAR less useful than originally. And nerfed WAY down from GC2.  They're only really worth the trade offs if you can get a 6- or 5- adjacency circle (or they're next to some special building where every single adjacency bonus you can squeeze is critical). Even at a 4-adjacency, the limited basic building bonus is too much to overcome for their small increased adjacency bonus.

I'm not advocating that they get buffed so to place them on every world. I'm saying that the two early resource structures absolutely need a major re-buff, otherwise they'll never be used.   I'm also saying that the others need a minor buff to make them more palatable choice when you can only manage a 3- adjacency.

Right now, looking at my typical game world, less than 1 in 10 qualify meet the standard where putting those on-per-colony improvements makes sense.  That's too low. Somewhere around 1 in 3 or 2 in 5 would be a better goal, which is why they need a moderate buff.  Your really have to have a minimum of a 10 QP to even think about having one of these anymore, because anything less than that won't have sufficient adjacent hexes to place it until the extreme late-game when you've been able to terraform 4+ tiles per planet.

Oh, and to the above about the Solar Plant:

The SP gives a +25% base bonus, vs the equivalent Mega Factory's +40%. So you have to have 4 or more adjacencies to overcome this -15% deficit. The SP does cost a bit less, and a smaller maintenance fee, but both differences are quite small vs the Mega Factory.  Similar arguments apply to the Fusion plant vs the Manufacturing Center (in fact, since I explicitly have to obtain a whole new tech to get the FP, it's even worse).  Both the SP and the FP really need either a +1 adjacency buff, or a +15% base bonus buff.

your logic is flawed. the Solar plant breaks even at 3 adjacency, not 4. and it doesn't cost "a bit less" - it costs less then one third of a mega factory. and you can build it in one turn, whereas a mega factory takes at least 3 turns to build+upgrade. so even if you use it with only 2 adjacencies, it takes A LONG time for the slightly better output of a mega factory to make up for the extra production and turns you have to invest it. a 5% mfg on an average planet running at 20 base manufacturing is worth 1 point of manufacturing. it takes 97 turns just to earn back the additional building cost of 97 extra manufacturing.

that manufacturing cost consideration is more relevant for planets you colonize after you got to that tech level. if you have to scrap an existing xeno factory to replace it with a solar plant, its less valuable of course. 

the economics of research buildings are a bit different. they unlock later and by that time you probably already built up your core research worlds and invested the time to get them to t3 research academies. so you'd need to scrap an academy to make room for a coordination center. if you still build up more research worlds at this stage, it's worthwhile to include the coordination center in the layout plan. again, one of their main selling points is that they are much cheaper, so if you can terraform a tile that is adjacent to 2-3 existsting research labs, it's still worthwhile to build a coordination center in that new tile rather than building up a new lab from scratch - you get back to 100% research some turns sooner, which makes the coord. center the better deal. it takes extremely long for a +5% or +10% research bonus advantage to catch up to the hundreds of research points you lose because the research world spends 2-3 extra turns dedicating a large% of its base production to building/upgrading rather than researching at 100% 

i agree that the thulium research building could use a buff. i don't even use those on planet layouts with very good potential adjacencies (+4 or more). thulium is relatively rare compared to durantium and the thulium based ship modules are some of the best force multipliers in the game. duranthium on the othre hand is usually the most common resource and only really required for shipbuilding if you go for mass driver weaponry. so a duranthum refinery is a bit more viable. it's somewhat overpriced, though. 2 factories + 1 refinery would be a really nice manufacturing sector for a research planet that will require quite a bit of manufacturing for multiple waves of building upgrades and terraforming expansions. if it didn't cost 5 times as much as a basic factory it would be a viable option. i don't really understand why they nerfed it. it finally seemed worthwhile at +4 total production and +3 adjacency.

In order for a colony-unique building to be worth building over a non-unique building, it needs to offer some advantage over the non-unique building. Therefore, if its bonuses are purely of the same type as the non-unique building, it must offer a larger overall bonus (at least under the right conditions).

This is simply not true. Against a 30%/40%/55%/75% building, a 50%/+2 levels building breaks even at -4/-2/1/5 adjacencies, a +75%/+3 levels building breaks even at -4.5/-3.5/-2/0 adjacencies, a +25%/+2 levels building breaks even at 1/3/6/10 adjacencies, a +50%/+3 levels building breaks even at -2/-1/0.5/2.5 adjacencies, and a +100%/+5 levels building breaks even at -3.5/-3/-2.25/-1.25 adjacencies. Whenever you have more than that many adjacencies, the colony unique buildings are the superior option.

You need to solve for N such that

2 * N * L1 * 0.05 + (N + 1) * B1 = (N * L1 + N * L2) * 0.05 + N * B1 + B2

where N is the number of tiles adjacent to the one which the unique building goes on, L1 is the number of levels granted by the standard building, B1 is the bonus granted by the standard building, L2 is the number of levels granted by the unique building, and B2 is the bonus granted by the unique building; B1 and B2 should be expressed as fractions (i.e. 50% = 0.5 or 1/2, not 50). Solving this for N gives

N = (B1 - B2) / ((L2 - L1) * 0.05)

For any n > N, the unique building will the be superior option, while for any n < N, the unique building will be the inferior option. As seen above, N is a number easily hit when the buildings being compared are similarly advanced. The formulas given here assume that the level bonus is 5% for both structures; you can modify the formula to accommodate different level bonuses quite easily.

I would say the thulium archive is a bit on the weak side. the solar plant I also avoid, just not quite with it.

the capitals are just fine, they are expensive but very powerful.

honestly I think the regular upgrades are some of the weakest. The amount of investment it takes to get to those high end buildings can take 100 turns or more to pay for themselves.

i did a Math check a while back and found it was better to do all the standard terraforms with basic buildings before doing a single upgrade. 

As resource-demanding improvements go, the Durantium Refinery and Thulium Data Archive are hardly alone. It's very difficult thinking of a single instance where the Antimatter Power Plant is justified.

i like to put one next to the hyperion shrinker. before it was changed to "one per colony" you could game that system a bit and surround the shrinker with 5 antimatter plants and an elerium shield. i guess a similar case could be made for galactic wonders that give a faction wide bonus. don't really know if any of them scale with adjacencies the way the shrinker does, though.

aside from that special application, it seems completely useless ;) 

Nah, that's easy. Stick them next to all your Hyperion buildings for a better fleet. Of course, past that there's not much use for them. If it had some sort of level bonus that was interesting maybe it'd be worth it, perhaps a +5% Social Manufacturing bonus? Very few sources of that.

So. I have to renege on my initial comment.

After reading the posts here and working more carefully with the numbers (primarily to balance a mod)... I think the adjacency is working well for manufacturing improvements. I haven't had time to work through the other improvements yet, but I will.

If I did the math right, once you reach the final improvement level (Industrial Sector (IS) & Quantum Power Plant (QPP)) it is always cheaper (in terms of manufacturing cost) and produces more manufacturing to use the QPP, even when adjacent to only 1 IS (a pair of IS has a max manu. of 160 at a total cost of 788 (cumulative costs of all improvements); an IS with a QPP has a max manu. of 215 at a total cost of 657; the maintenance is the same either way). And while more expensive with lower tier manu. improvements, the QPP always results in better output when adjacent to 1 or more manu. improvements.

Also, there are only a few times it is less effective to have a Solar Power Plant (SPP) or Fusion Power Plant (FPP) in adjacency:

Solar Power Plants (SPP): With Industrial Sectors, an SPP is always worse, and with Manufacturing Centers an SPP is always worse except in a full hex configuration. The SPP breaks even at a lower cost in a diamond configuration with Mega Factories, but is worse with Mega Factories in any smaller configuration. The SPP also breaks even when paired with a Xeno Factory, but at a lower cost.

Fusion Power Plants (FPP): The FPP is worse with Industrial Sectors only in triangle and smaller configurations.

Costs:

The costs are higher for configurations that include an SPP or FPP early on, but these are always cheaper starting at Xeno and Mega Factories, respectively.

The QPP is always more expensive until using Industrial Sectors, but the extra manufacturing capacity is substantial (from 55% to 195% more manufacturing depending on the improvements and configuration).

Conclusion:

In the long term, it is worth pursuing the Quantum Power Plant as it always results in higher manufacturing (even when adjacent to only 1 manufacturing improvement) and is ultimately cheaper (assuming you don't destroy a manufacturing improvement to replace it...).

Along the way, Solar Power Plants and Fusion Power Plants are less productive than more advanced manufacturing improvements. So if you can always place a SPP in a diamond configuration with manufacturing improvements, and you research Fusion Power Plants before Manufacturing Centers, you will always have equal or better manufacturing at lower costs (except initially with 3 basic factories and a SPP).

What best depends on the Adjacency bonus and how many can be clustered together.

Doing the math tell us the following (using official posters numbers which are the same as the wiki:

The Data Archive is equal to basic research buildings: 55% if you got 6 adjacent (both give 85% total), 40% at 3 (55% for both) 30% at 1 (both give 35%) with more the Archive wins. Only the 75% version of basic is always better. The same applies to the solar plant. So it is worth it early game, it should be replaced later on.

Coordination Center: 55% basic = at 1 adjacent (both give 60%) and 75%= at 5 adjacent (both give 100%) so more than this the Coordination Center is better.

Fusion Plant: wins vs 55% with 1 adjacent (65% vs 55%) and 75% with 3 adjacent (95% vs 90%).

Innovation Complex, Quantum Plant and the capitals win no matter what there's no way the basic buildings can come close just with the basic numbers let along the +3 and +5 bonus to other buildings.

Note the highest Adjacency bonus building should always be in the middle.

The Durantium Refinery is harder to do since it increases the base production of the planet instead of being a % multiplier.

Note all the specials buildings are also give a better bonus per upkeep as well so they are cheaper in the long run.

Considering it needs the relatively rare Thulium, the Archive is still distinctly disappointing. Compared to the basic building, it costs 5 times as much manufacturing to build, plus the resource (and so the cost of the starbase). That means 5 times as long to get the thing built, on a research world with low manufacturing potential. The cost quite simply isn't worth it for the tiny, tiny benefit, even if it is mildly better.