Thoughts on Sins of a Solar Empire 2: Part II

Change the economy to avoid double taxation

from Sins Forums

Here are another two ideas in my hopefully limpid series.

3. Change fleet supply costs from a crippling double taxation to an actual maintenance cost.

With the current fleet supply cost a fixed percentage of your income, rebuilding a big fleet can be difficult after a loss. Even though your current fleet supply usage is only 100, you are paying for 2000 supply with a crushing 75% tax burden. I understand that fleet supply is designed to keep powerful players from becoming too powerful, but sometimes it feels too punitive. Fleet supply would work better if it was a fixed cost per unit supply (with the same upgrades to increase max supply as the current system). For example, a 1000 supply fleet could cost 50 credits, 10 metal and crystal per second, but after you lose it your costs also decrease. (If your economy can not support this rate and you run out of money in the bank, you might not be able to build any more ships, and passive regeneration could be disabled until your income can support your fleet again.)

The double taxation I mentioned is also a real drag when colonizing planets more than 5 or 6 jumps away from your capital. A nominal metal extractor of .69/second or whatever is only giving .3105 because of 45% allegiance. You then are taxed at 66% for a final income of about .103 per second. this is about 15% of the original income. It does not even feel like it is worth it to invest in these planets! The above change would also help this problem.

4. Implement a more exciting "fog of war."

The current fog of war implementation is very simple. Any ship in a gravity well will provide vision to the entire well. Also, there is no stealth, and even mines are just "invulnerable." Adding layers of stealth might improve the gameplay, but I am not so sure about this one. Let me explain that there could possibly be different levels of "stealthyness." A mine would be totally invisible unless detected by specialized sensor ships (i.e., scouts in the current game). Some frigates could have enough stealth rating to hide on the far side of a planet or in a dust cloud if more than X distance away from normal enemy ships with only basic sensors. Maybe the shattered moon or asteroid field will now hold opportunities to play hide and seek with the intelligence gathering forces of your enemy!

Anyway, just some ideas for the devs.


Here is the link to Part 1

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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

With the current fleet supply cost a fixed percentage of your income, rebuilding a big fleet can be difficult after a loss. Even though your current fleet supply usage is only 100, you are paying for 2000 supply with a crushing 75% tax burden. I understand that fleet supply is designed to keep powerful players from becoming too powerful, but sometimes it feels too punitive. Fleet supply would work better if it was a fixed cost per unit supply (with the same upgrades to increase max supply as the current system). For example, a 1000 supply fleet could cost 50 credits, 10 metal and crystal per second, but after you lose it your costs also decrease. (If your economy can not support this rate and you run out of money in the bank, you might not be able to build any more ships, and passive regeneration could be disabled until your income can support your fleet again.)

You've answered your own question. The devs have said this was a design decision they intentionally made because they want it this way. Personally I and many others like it as it also serves as an antirush device. Like pirates, this is a game mechanic with no obvious "best way" to implement it, and changing it would anger as many people as it pleases. For these kind of things you're better off modding it if you don't like it.

 

Some sort of stealth mechanic would be an awesome DLC though. :thumbsup:

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Can the game actually be modded to have fleet supply tax a function of currently used supply instead of researched "max supply?" I also would think that something as radical as changing the fleet supply cost from a tax rate (percentage of all income) to a constant cost/supply/unit time (i.e., the supply cost is the same absolute amount whether your income is 10/sec or 200/sec) would be pretty difficult to mod. This change would be a great benefit to larger empires, and I do see how that might be a serious problem.

Regarding rushing, the only impact I can see of changing tax rate based on used supply instead of max supply is that a rushing player who loses his fleet will now have (presumably) a small economy with a large tax burden, a daunting situation indeed. The change would no do much to make rushing easier during the rush, however.

Honestly, I think a lot of these game mechanics that provide penalties for large fleets and empires(allegiance penalty) are based on limitations of the engine. If Sins 2 can support larger fleets and more planets (the wonders of concurrent programming), I wouldn't be surprised if some of these limitations are relaxed.

I don't think stealth mechanics/fog of war would be easy to implement in the current engine. To add another idea, non-circular gravity wells would work well with a limited line of sight. Take an "asteroid belt" that is perhaps 4 or 5 times as long as a regular asteroid field. If would be good if your ships did not have vision all the way to the other end of this elongated gravity well. Interesting tactical gameplay might result, but I seriously doubt it could/would be done on this engine. O:)

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting SlammerIV, reply 2
Can the game actually be modded to have fleet supply tax a function of currently used supply instead of researched "max supply?" I also would think that something as radical as changing the fleet supply cost from a tax rate (percentage of all income) to a constant cost/supply/unit time (i.e., the supply cost is the same absolute amount whether your income is 10/sec or 200/sec) would be pretty difficult to mod. This change would be a great benefit to larger empires, and I do see how that might be a serious problem.

No, but you could remove it all together.

Quoting SlammerIV, reply 2
Regarding rushing, the only impact I can see of changing tax rate based on used supply instead of max supply is that a rushing player who loses his fleet will now have (presumably) a small economy with a large tax burden, a daunting situation indeed. The change would no do much to make rushing easier during the rush, however.

The current systems means if you rush a huge fleet and then lose it, you have a permanently weakened economy. It is thus a major risk to upgrade your fleet supply if you have improve your economy along with it. If your fleet upkeep is based on total fleet supply used, then a rushers economy would go back to normal if he lost his fleet.

 

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1


With the current fleet supply cost a fixed percentage of your income, rebuilding a big fleet can be difficult after a loss. Even though your current fleet supply usage is only 100, you are paying for 2000 supply with a crushing 75% tax burden. I understand that fleet supply is designed to keep powerful players from becoming too powerful, but sometimes it feels too punitive. Fleet supply would work better if it was a fixed cost per unit supply (with the same upgrades to increase max supply as the current system). For example, a 1000 supply fleet could cost 50 credits, 10 metal and crystal per second, but after you lose it your costs also decrease. (If your economy can not support this rate and you run out of money in the bank, you might not be able to build any more ships, and passive regeneration could be disabled until your income can support your fleet again.)

You've answered your own question. The devs have said this was a design decision they intentionally made because they want it this way. Personally I and many others like it as it also serves as an antirush device. Like pirates, this is a game mechanic with no obvious "best way" to implement it, and changing it would anger as many people as it pleases. For these kind of things you're better off modding it if you don't like it.

Some sort of stealth mechanic would be an awesome DLC though.

I think his concern isn't with building too much fleet initially but what happens you lose most of a big fleet. You've basically lost the game in that case with the present mechanics because your econ is just as crushed with 0/800 fleet capacity used as it is with 800/800. This is why conserving your fleet [once built] is so important and why top players like Grimm or Doci (watch their 1v1 posted here!) basically avoid all-out fleet battles at all cost (unless they have a crushing advantage). So the game as designed [if played close to optimal] turns into a long series of mutual raids intended to cripple the enemy's econ while preserving your fleet.

I don't know if the devs realize it, but the best strategy that emerges from their design is basically the space equivalent of a mutual unrestricted submarine warfare or mutual strategic bombing [sans defense] with almost no actual fleet vs. fleet battles (save for cap ship hunting). Watch Doci v. Grimm and try playing like that vs. yourself or another player who groks the strategy (and also vs. one who doesn't or simulate one yourself), if you don't believe me this strategy is the trump card in Sins. Grimm even says it somewhere in his guide that's basically preferable to lose planets than to lose your fleet. (True most of the time unless you're about to lose your HW and have little else generating credits.)

 

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

I think someone has a crush on Grimm and Doci....

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 5

I think someone has a crush on Grimm and Doci....

Lol, no. But unlike other games with a [more] serious MP cult following (faforever etc.) there's little in the way of recordings for Sins available on the web, either as in-game format or videos. So it's hard for me to provide a more diversified set of references that others can access/check... especially for 1v1 Sins MP games. Do you want me to discuss GoaFan77 vs ChronosePrime (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7rfP2qMWqI) from when the Vasari DN was so OP, which wasn't so long ago? [Never mind the blurry, non-HD vid]. Because that's all I could find in terms of reasonably recent semi-serious 1v1 Sins:R play on youtube. Maybe this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRI_nxmpGWU [even more blurry] video from 2012 proves the point that TEC SBs suck as spam? Worth mentioning? Do you post any recordings of your games here or [as vids] on youtube?

This forum having its [above average, IMO] share of trolling and [more or less tongue-in-cheek] deliberately deceitful posts [which aren't shown this much tolerance in other game's fora] doesn't make the situation better when it comes down to providing/linking to good info, by the way. At least Grimm and Doci don't troll this forum, so yeah I'll point to their posts/recordings with less hesitation than for others' posts...

 

 

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

I would love to have true stealth and I also think extended sensors. So for example you might have a sensor array on one planet. You can see 'pings' of ships moving around in another grav-well but not what type of ship.

True stealth would also be great for ambushes and deeps strikes etc. (as well as making mines more useful)

I also think some kind of Line of Sight would be cool too, but I know a lot of people might not like that.
Something akin to Supreme Commander would be pretty cool (how you have visual and radar/sonar feedback)

 

 

I would also prefer that fleet supply was an actual tax on income per ship. and if you don't have the economy to support the ships then either they no longer self repair or regenerate antimatter (perhaps even take slow attrition damage)


That way not only does it mean once losing a fleet you can build one back faster, it also gives a new strategy to deal with enemies. Taking out their economy would make their fleet suffer and you could win by 'starving them out' so to speak.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Is this meant to be a troll post?

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Wintercross, reply 7
[...]Something akin to Supreme Commander[...]

If we get into that, ETAs for ship movements and split-screen or multi-display support would be in my top 2-3 items to borrow from Supcom.  Wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to calculate in your head how long that Protev needs to regenerate AM after jumping to colonize? Or even how long the whole jump-then-colonize order would take to complete [taking AM loss and regen into account]? Or what's the estimated time-to-death of your [or the enemy's] planet at the current level of bombardment? Simple calculations/estimations like are what computers are normally used for... Or wouldn't you like to have the mood/roid single-colony [side] colonization action on the same [split] screen (or on another display) at the same time as you're [micro]managing your main fleet's action?

But who needs that when this game has had a "killer multiplayer" [in which your APM doesn't matter, Sin is all about strategizing] and a "really good AI" since 2012, according to Nixie Pixel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehsknbVfaBQ#t=236, who self-describes as a "Sins veteran" a bit later in there? I'm sure you've all met her on ICO and she frequently posts on this forum too. EOR.

Update: Ooooh. I found the killer MP vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbFBzsTmMMQ. Didn't I? Sel?

 

 

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting RespawnedTitanL10, reply 9


Quoting Wintercross, reply 7[...]Something akin to Supreme Commander[...]

If we get into that, ETAs for ship movements and split-screen or multi-display support would be in my top 2-3 items to borrow from Supcom.  Wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to calculate in your head how long that Protev needs to regenerate AM after jumping to colonize? Or even how long the whole jump-then-colonize order would take to complete [taking AM loss and regen into account]? Or what's the estimated time-to-death of your [or the enemy's] planet at the current level of bombardment? Simple calculations/estimations like are what computers are normally used for... Or wouldn't you like to have the mood/roid single-colony [side] colonization action on the same [split] screen (or on another display) at the same time as you're [micro]managing your main fleet's action?

But who needs that when this game has had a "killer multiplayer" [in which your APM doesn't matter, Sin is all about strategizing] and a "really good AI" since 2012, according to Nixie Pixel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehsknbVfaBQ#t=236, who self-describes as a "Sins veteran" a bit later in there? I'm sure you've all met her on ICO and she frequently posts on this forum too. EOR.

Update: Ooooh. I found the killer MP vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbFBzsTmMMQ. Didn't I? Sel?

 

 

 

yeah, I can support the idea of ETAs and split-screen/multi-display.

In fact, I'd love to have my second screen set to a overview 'sensor' display like you could in Supcom so I can keep an eye on my empire while I'm micro managing a battle or whatever.

 

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting The, reply 0
Maybe the shattered moon or asteroid field will now hold opportunities to play hide and seek with the intelligence gathering forces of your enemy!

You know, this could make some of those uncolonizable gravity wells actually interesting and game-changing...plasma and magnetic storms sort of do that but most of the other ones either you just want to avoid (radiation, ice field) or don't really matter much (asteroid belt)...I'd rather have that than "stealth ships" that just fire an ability at will...

Quoting Wintercross, reply 7
I also think some kind of Line of Sight would be cool too, but I know a lot of people might not like that.Something akin to Supreme Commander would be pretty cool (how you have visual and radar/sonar feedback)

That's the kind of stuff that I think would really only work for slower game speeds...I'm not against it on that merit alone, but I wouldn't mind Sins 2 having a strong MP side to it and that kind of requires simplified gameplay that works well on faster speeds...

Quoting RespawnedTitanL10, reply 6
there's little in the way of recordings for Sins available on the web, either as in-game format or videos. So it's hard for me to provide a more diversified set of references that others can access/check... especially for 1v1 Sins MP games.

If it bothers you so much, go on ICO and do the recordings yourself...I just think it's funny that you start so many of your posts with "in the Doci vs. Grimm game"...you're almost like Sleeper, trying to suck-up to them at every chance you can....

Quoting RespawnedTitanL10, reply 9
I'm sure you've all met her on ICO and she frequently posts on this forum too.

There are girls on ICO??? Like, real women??

This, gentlemen, is a historic moment.....

 

 

 

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

WTF I thought Seleuceia was a girl??!!!?

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

I am, but I don't ICO...REMEMBER?

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Certainly some nice ideas... and while we're at it in digging up stuff (well, this one wasn't so old ;)), an old thread of my own that received no comments... I think in part because I posted it in the wrong section or something... it wasn't visible except via some convoluted method.

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/433718/page/1/

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Oh!! While we're talking about stuff for Sins 2 how about proper formations as well as spacing!!

I want the ability to choose different formations like Wall, Line, Delta, Sphere etc. While choosing the spacing (tight, normal, loose)  would effect how close they bunch up together.

 

 

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

I guess I am slow to the party, but I never realized there were so many late replies to my thread... I just bought Ashes and noticed.

I still think SoaSE II is my most anticipated game, only rivalled by a Command and Conquer reboot, if such a thing were likely. Ironclad needs to finish that MOBA and get working on a REAL 4X space game. :D

 

Quoting furyofthestars, reply 14

Certainly some nice ideas... and while we're at it in digging up stuff (well, this one wasn't so old ), an old thread of my own that received no comments... I think in part because I posted it in the wrong section or something... it wasn't visible except via some convoluted method.
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/433718/page/1/

 

I like your idea of more advanced UI options for fleet management, furyofthestars. The developers would have to think carefully about how fleets deduct money for automatically constructing replacement ships, but your idea could be fun.