Brief thoughts on Pariden

from Elemental Forums

 

I like Pariden. A lot. I have two small suggestions below I would like to timidly propose for a future patch, because I would like to like them less.

Currently, I am forbidding myself to play as Pariden. It's just too tempting. I'm happy to see the AI play it, because it remains unaware of Pariden's potential, but I wonder if Pariden is an incarnation of the Dark Side in a prettier form.

While the miscellaneous perks of Pariden blood are well and good, and having access to some upgraded staves is alright, and being able to purchase Apprenticeship in the Elements can be quite helpful (I like having all of my champions be able to caste Haste), it is the combination of its other two traits which synergize incredibly well.

1. Scrying Pool. It's dirt cheap to build, accessible without any technological breakthrough, and can be built in any dwelling. I've played 2 games in which I had at least 2 cities with 5 Essence this way (settled a 3-essence, built a scrying pool, made a Conclave). Building a SP is a no-brainer in every single city, since it requires no tech and tuppence in labor. Using Meditation will give you lots of mana, which you can use to cast...

2. Arcane Monolith. This spell is so devastating, you can use it anywhere unowned you have already explored, you don't even need to have active sight of all tiles effected. You can use it to spamlock territory you want to settle later, to block movement, or even to create your own immediate ZoC to cast Freeze etc. It's dirt cheap to cast, instantaneous, and has no cooldown.

I would suggest slightly increasing the labor cost of the Scrying Pool, and having it require a low-level tech, such as Sorcery.
I would also suggest slightly increasing the cost of Arcane Monolith, and giving it a cooldown of at least 1.

Peace

14,285 views 10 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

So you have discovered Enchanters is the best trait in the game. 

Why don't you enjoy it, instead of the nerf-cry?

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top


I had hoped to make it clear that I enjoy it, and I would enjoy it even more if there were some checks and balances in place. That doesn't sound irrational to me.

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top


 

I like Pariden. A lot. I have two small suggestions below I would like to timidly propose for a future patch, because I would like to like them less.

Currently, I am forbidding myself to play as Pariden. It's just too tempting. I'm happy to see the AI play it, because it remains unaware of Pariden's potential, but I wonder if Pariden is an incarnation of the Dark Side in a prettier form.

While the miscellaneous perks of Pariden blood are well and good, and having access to some upgraded staves is alright, and being able to purchase Apprenticeship in the Elements can be quite helpful (I like having all of my champions be able to caste Haste), it is the combination of its other two traits which synergize incredibly well.

1. Scrying Pool. It's dirt cheap to build, accessible without any technological breakthrough, and can be built in any dwelling. I've played 2 games in which I had at least 2 cities with 5 Essence this way (settled a 3-essence, built a scrying pool, made a Conclave). Building a SP is a no-brainer in every single city, since it requires no tech and tuppence in labor. Using Meditation will give you lots of mana, which you can use to cast...

2. Arcane Monolith. This spell is so devastating, you can use it anywhere unowned you have already explored, you don't even need to have active sight of all tiles effected. You can use it to spamlock territory you want to settle later, to block movement, or even to create your own immediate ZoC to cast Freeze etc. It's dirt cheap to cast, instantaneous, and has no cooldown.

I would suggest slightly increasing the labor cost of the Scrying Pool, and having it require a low-level tech, such as Sorcery.
I would also suggest slightly increasing the cost of Arcane Monolith, and giving it a cooldown of at least 1.

Peace

Agreed Arcane Monolith should be 2 points not 1. Scrying Pool should have a cost to build in mana/crystal and labor.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top


every faction has a trait/ability that seems overpowered... that's what makes them fun, unique, and play differently.  if you stop playing pariden long enough, you'll soon find out that altar's henchmen, rush ability, and quest loop is overpowered, resoln's shard corruption and death spells are overpowered, yithril's juggernauts are overpowered, tarth's double-strike is overpowered, and so on...

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree with everyone. ;-)

One point worth making is that part of the reason arcane monolith is so useful is that the alternative, pioneer based outposts, are so expensive. I'm firmly on the bandwagon of all the people who think that outposts should also be buildable by a cheaper unit (eg engineer) that doesn't cost 30 population.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 5
every faction has a trait/ability that seems overpowered... that's what makes them fun, unique, and play differently.  if you stop playing pariden long enough, you'll soon find out that altar's henchmen, rush ability, and quest loop is overpowered, resoln's shard corruption and death spells are overpowered, yithril's juggernauts are overpowered, tarth's double-strike is overpowered, and so on...

 

Gotta admit, that's a great point.  I've also fallen into the trap of believing the faction I'm playing needs nerfing, only to believe it all over again when I play through with another vanilla faction.  I agree that this plays into exactly what you're saying.  The existing traits are balanced quite well IMO and don't need to be touched. 

When the OP says "I'm happy to see the AI play it, because it remains unaware of Pariden's potential", this beautifully illustrates the actual problem here. The real problem is the AI still can't handle many of these perks properly, if at all in some cases.  I don't think we can really have this specific conversation on balance until the AI better utilizes what they're given across the board.  Until then, nerfing this and that will only cause more problems in the long run.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I've placed Arcane Monoliths in desired territory but the AI was still able to build settlements nearby and gradually "steal" the resources away from me. I don't know what the game mechanic is but it doesn't seem to recognize my absolute control of resources in that situation. I've done the same myself, expanding a city to the point where I gain control not only of the resources but the enemy's outpost by manually expanding towards it with new construction. But I agree it shouldn't require pioneers to build outposts - why not have it as a scout ability that requires a couple of turns to complete? 

 

As for the Decalon, I think it's easier to pick a couple of spell lines for my sovereign, usually Life and Air, then pick up champions with water and fire to get the best of those spells. Two points for Decalon means giving up a lot of other good traits. Scrying Pool is nice but it's easily offset by an additional grain or material rank since you often cast enchantments for those and SP doesn't seem that cheap or easy to me.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top


Just to clear up, I have played all of the factions, and while I have enjoyed most of them quite a bit, I have not seen the strategic synergy and power of Scrying Pool and Arcane Monolith anywhere. Teching to and building up, say, an army of Juggernauts is a vastly different -- and in my opinion, much more straightforward -- strategic commitment than having the ability to instantly drop 10 outposts, anywhere, at any given point in time. Getting Juggernauts is fun and powerful. (I wish the AI would do it just a tiny bit better.) Having the tech to do so be possible in mid-game seems like a decent balance to me (as well as the stipulation that Ythril not be able to use ranged weapons). While the following analogy is grossly exaggerated on my part, what I'm attempting to claim is tantamount to suggesting that the current way in which Pariden's Scrying Pool and Arcane Monolith function is similar to having Juggernauts be available right after Barracks or having Henchmen cost only labor to produce and be available right after Civics. Again, I think it is GOOD that the Scrying Pool and the Arcane Monolith are in the game as unique and powerful traits to a particular faction, similar to the way that only one faction gets Juggernauts or another Henchmen, but I feel that those other special traits (Juggernauts and Henchmen, for example) are balanced better. I don't think the current situation represents a horrible injustice ;-) I do think that the Scrying Pool might cost slightly more and I do think that Arcane Monolith could use some form of restriction.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting onomastikon, reply 9


Just to clear up, I have played all of the factions, and while I have enjoyed most of them quite a bit, I have not seen the strategic synergy and power of Scrying Pool and Arcane Monolith anywhere.

Playing Pariden was interesting, but I didn't think it was overpowered compared to, say, Magnar: get Summon Skeleton Horde, cast Cull the Weak, gain nearly infinite mana, win. That is so overpowered I actually refuse to use it. I also didn't find the Pariden special features as powerful as Beastlord: build early free army of spiders, bears, wolves, gain money, magic items and experience advantage early in the game; create later free army of cavebears, umberdroths, corpse spiders or rock spiders, take on more powerful quests, win.

I've not really experimented with corrupting shards or henchmen, but I can see their potential as well. Cull the Weak on summoned units I would like to see banned, and I'd like Beastlord to be slightly nerfed, but I certainly didn't feel like an unstoppable steamroller playing Pariden on Ridiculous. More Essence and being able to grab shards was nice but I've had better abilities. I just didn't have enough mana to be casting Arcane Monolith all the time, and the AI had expanded enough that there weren't that many obvious targets anyway.