Thoughts on future improvements for Legendary Heroes

from Elemental Forums

Having played Legendary Heroes for a while, I have come to the conclusion that while there is a lot of great features and interesting possibilities, the actual implementation has not yet shown its true potential. There is no great diversity in the way to play the game. It's build lots of cities, build lots of powerful units, grab as many resources as possible and smash everyone else. Once you have got more powerful than everyone else, then you have won - there's no endgame where it might hang in the balance.

There is a great flexibility in the game, but this has actually led in some places to a bit of a muddle. For example the way that spells are gained - through spell books, research, hero levelling, even quests, has no real logic to it. Why do you get city spells or universal strategic spells through hero levelling? I think that the reviews of the game are generally correct: this is an 8/10 game - but it could be a 9 or even 10/10 with a few changes.

In short it seems that a grand vision of how the game could work has not been formulated. I have been trying to visualize how the game could work, and in this process I have been creating a number of vignettes of each side in a (imaginary) Legendary Heroes game with different game mechanics. They suggest how Legendary Heroes might be improved and provide different ways to play the game. After each vignette, I will discuss how the side is seeking victory; the changes I think are necessary in the game for this type of play to be possible and whether they are achievable by modding the current game or need further work in development. I apologize in advance for my poor literary skills and for any bad puns that might have slipped through the editing process.

I hope that some of these ideas will be workable. I am trying to keep them high-level aspirations, not trying to flesh out all the details - so consequently some may not be attainable. Also there may be some ideas that have been tried before and failed - I don't pretend to be knowledgeable on all games like this. I have played CIV4 and some Paradox games recently and Master of Magic less recently - so I have some experience but not extensive experience. There will be better ideas, or improvements to my ideas - if you have them then don't hesitate to bring them out. The idea is to both create great mods and to help the developers by suggesting new directions the game can go in.

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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

The Quester: Lady Irane of Tarth

 

"Betrayer!" screamed Lady Irane at the massed ranks of the enemy before her.

"Submit now," replied a pleasant-sounding voice, "or suffer the consequences."

"Never!" returned lady Irane, silently motioning her comrades to move closer, then she uttered her spell: "Iave Tuve Go" and the world changed to black.

"Welcome back Lady Irane" a kind but slightly pompous voice greeted her as colour and the world began to return to her. It was the voice of her Majordomo, Bob.  "And of course to you Magar and Lady Badra", he greeted her companions who had escaped along with her. "I take it that negotiations with the Oracle Ceresa did not go well".

"Oh they went fine," snarled Irane. "We came to an agreement - that ring that she wanted for safe passage through her lands. So we found the ring, handed it over, then when we were going through her lands as agreed, she surrounded and attacked us. Words cannot describe what she is, she's a villain, a miserable ...". She mentally ran through a list of vile epithets before choosing the worst she could think of. "A miserable politician!".

"Perhaps we shouldn't have tried sneaking through her land in the first place." the calm Magar suggested, shrugging as Irane directed her glare at him.

"We had no hostile intent." she retorted. "We were just trying to get to that lost temple on the other side beyond her lands. Well she won't stop us. We'll just have to find another route now."

"In the meantime," her Majordomo intervened trying to calm her down by changing the subject, "perhaps you would like to see the latest research we have uncovered."

"You've made some breakthroughs?" Irane asked eagerly.

"We have indeed, and after you have rested and eaten, I will discuss them with you."

"Hmmm" snorted Irane, but after a moment reluctantly allowed herself to be herded towards her Quarters.

-

The view out of the windows from her rooms never failed to inspire Lady Irane. From the top of the tallest spire, she could see all of Shakana, the Hidden City laid out down below her. At night the street lanterns showed up as a whirl of sparkly patterns and the city walls in the distance were bathed in a faint glow from the magical defences. By day the mountains all around in the distance provided a comforting feeling of security from the outside world, while the veils of illusion could sometimes be spotted in the sunlight. "Shakana, the greatest city in the world, the cradle that will bring a new civilization to this world." thought Irane. One day they will come from all over the world, to gain enlightenment, or knowledge or just to gaze in wonder at this city. But for now it would remain hidden and secure. And right now she had one majordomo to hunt down and extract this new research he had taunted her with.

She found him in the Great Library, perusing a few old scrolls. He looked up and smiled at her impatient look, but allowed her to open the conversation. When she continued staring at him ominously, he gave in.

"OK, I'll get to the subject. Do you remember that body encased in ice you found to the north-east of us?"

She took a few moments to recollect. "Oh yes. It looked almost alive in that ice. We didn't know whether to try to break open the ice or not."

"Well our researchers found this ancient scroll." he said, picking up one of the scrolls he had been reading. "It was written by a human, a traveller, about a hundred years ago. Here's the key passage:

    <<In ye empire of Vaydar, it was ye custome to freeze ye enemies in karborite, a khemickal of strange unkyklable powers.>>"

"Unkyklable - what does that mean?" interrupted Lady Irane.

"Well I saw another term he used for it. He called it non-biodegradable. I think the traveller meant that the person was frozen alive, and could be revived at a later date."

"So they froze their enemies alive? Why not just kill them? Were they daft, these Vaydars?"

"I don't know. But anyway their Empire collapsed soon after when their main city, along with their Emperor, was mysteriously blown up."

"Do we know how they revived those that were frozen?"

"It says that they used a sacrificial knife to cut away the material, and then the body would revive."

"A sacrificial knife? I think I've seen one of those - didn't we take one from some zombies a year or so ago?"

"Yes, they seem to be fairly common. However I think that you sold the knife to a merchant soon afterwards."

"Oh well, we'll find another one."

"In the meantime, you should know that Jordur's party returned successfully from a quest and left you with some new toys to try out at the weapon range."

"New weapons! I've got to check them out right now."

She eagerly made her way out of the library, followed more sedately by the majordomo. As he entered the range, he saw that Lady Irane had already found the new weapon, a gleaming longbow along with a quiver full of arrows. She looked a bit disappointed.

"It's nice and shiny, but is it any better than my current bow?" she asked.

"Why don't you try it out? First use some ordinary arrows and aim at that target over there." he pointed to a target a hundred yards away.

She did as he instructed. She drew the bow and shot the first arrow, then almost immediately a second, and a third. They all hit the target. Then she stumbled a bit, dropping the bow as if it was hot.

"Holy smoke." Irane exclaimed. "How did I shoot them so quickly?". She stooped to retrieve the bow, then looked at it in wonder. There were some runes glowing along its length.

"We think there is a magic from these runes that cause a new arrow to be drawn as the previous arrow is released. Your hand moves to retrieve an arrow, the arrow seems to appear in the hand and the bow is nocked and drawn. It is very quick and difficult to see happening, but you can witness the results."

"Yes!" shouted Lady Irane, "this is going to be the best weapon ever! I feel just like a machine when I use it. I think I am going to name it ... the Machine Bow."

"Now try one of these arrows that came with it - no just one arrow - you'll see why shortly."

Irane drew the bow again with the new arrow, sighted the same target and released. As soon as the arrow left the bow, it seemed to burst into flame. Then as it hit the target, there was a loud KABOOM and lots of smoke. When the smoke disappeard, the target had disappeared.

"Holy flaming arrows with high explosive and smoke!" Irane exclaimed. "The Machine Bow with High Explosive arrows - what a combination!"

The rest of the day was spent discussing the Quests that had been completed and those still open. She had aided the Alchemist in his difficulties with bandits, and had been promised any rare materials she wanted. At the moment, Irane did not know which rare materials would be useful, so she had left that open.

Irane decided that it would be best to continue with the Quest she had been on, to find the Lost Library of Arkania. Since she could not go through Oracle Ceresa's lands, she had to consider alternative routes. She decided that south-west was the direction to travel, which would take her to the lands of Altar. She hoped for better luck at coming to a safe-passage agreement with the ruler of Altar, Lord Relias.

The frozen-body-in-ice Quest could wait until somebody had found another sacrificial knife. The Dragon's cave was being investigated by Jordur and his companions. And there were a number of quests that needed further research, like the search for the Pipes of Peace, if they existed. Irane remembered an old bard singing about them in a tavern years ago. He had apparently been a member of a famous musical band, called the Slugs, that had travelled extensively throughout the world, so he might have known what he was singing about. If she could find the Pipes and use them to bring peace to the world ... and perhaps the Library of Arkania would help in locating them.

So shortly after dawn the next day, Lady Irane and her companions were gathered to set out to the lands of Altar. They had decided to approach openly and attempt a safe-passage agreement rather than attempt to sneak through.

"Fare you well, Lady Irane." called her majordomo.

"Thank you Bob." she replied. "All right, lets up and ride. Altar awaits!"

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top


Explanation and discussion.

The Quester is a dramatically different way of playing the game. I was inspired by the recent mention of the old game "Lords of Midnight" where victory could be achieved in two different ways - by armies or by adventure/quest. This playing method definitely has parellels to old adventures, where you had to find the right item to solve a particular puzzle, although I could see there being other ways of playing - fighting the monsters or NPCs rather than finding ways to avoid or reason with them.

For me, the key to making this sort of gameplay feasible is to completely change the way cities grow. I am thinking that a city should have 10 levels, and that growth is dramatically slowed with every new city that a side possesses. Therefore a single city realm will quickly grow to level 10 by itself, but achieving that with 2, 3, 10 or 50 cities gets progressively slower and harder. If you want a rationale for it, think that the more new cities you have the more emigration you will have away from your old cities to the new cities along with increased bureaucracy from possessing multiple cities. If there is one single change in the game that I would make, then this is it.

Under this system, quick expansion, while still a completely valid choice, is by no means the only choice. It also means that the endgame is no longer a walk in the park. Attacking the final city of a small side becomes an epic battle with victory by no means assured. Buildings with positive benefits throughout the realm (such as butcheries and bakeries) should be removed, because they give advantages to sides which are already winning through having large numbers of cities. Lots of buildings should be buildable on levelling up rather than by research. This means that the small sides do not have to bother with research on cities but can concentrate on something else.

I envision Shakana as a level 10 city mainly concentrating on research, but all level 10 cities should have strong defences. In this case there could be city enchantments such as illusions to keep itself hidden. Even if discovered it should have defences to hold off all but the most powerful armies, especially if Lady Irane and her companions are recalled to help the defence. The hidden city nature is sort of already possible - you can use Earth spells to raise and lower mountains, so you could surround your city with mountains. You would have to lower and raise the land to allow your heroes back out, but that mechanism could be improved upon. A possibility would be to set up locations you can teleport to - this could also confuse opponents about where your city is. Alternative city locations would be on an Island or at an oasis in the middle of the desert with illusions to convey nothing but desert.

Research for a Quester in my scenario would be a completely separate line - perhaps labelled "Ancient Lore". While other players could choose to research along this line, this would detract from their town or army or magic research. Research levels should make new quests available, allow progress in open quests or new options at least, as well as providing occasional other goodies, such as spells. A suggestion for a research option down this line is the ability for heroes not to split experience points when journeying together - it could be called "hero cooperation" or something similar. Quests should provide goodies such as high-level hero items, rare resources and research points (ie old books of knowledge). Spells gained from quests and quest research should be geared towards aiding in questing - for example teleport spells for moving around the map, spells of recall.

Victory for Lady Irane would be achieved through finding powerful items. There could be a Quest Victory option, but I think that I would prefer the acquisition of powerful items that change the game, allowing other factions to counter them as best as possible. For example the Pipes of Peace could compel an alliance with any faction that communicates with the item-wielder; the Sorcerer's Throne of Power could turn every shard to the control of the throne owner; the Crown of Domination might allow the user to turn any city within 10 squares of him to his control; and so on. Power for a Quest-oriented side therefore resides in high-level heroes and high-level items. The obvious weaknesses are lack of resources and production: so few (and weak) armies.

The style of play should appeal to RPG-type players rather than CIV or army gamers. I initially thought that this role was not suitable for the AI, but after a little more consideration I believe that it could be possible for the AI to play as a Quester. Research goals are straight-forward, city management is uncomplicated and quests are a mixture of research, item finding and fighting, which the AI could do. The current AI is not suitable, but I don't see any particular difficulties (beyond time and effort) with writing an AI for Questers.

As far as I can tell, quests can only be affected by gaining techs in an indirect way: you could allow new items in the shop from researching a technology, and one of these items could provide new options in a quest. However I cannot see that there are many obstacles to technologies in later version being able to affect quests more directly.

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