Shadows, my oldest enemy

from JoeUser Forums

The goal is to have the Legendary Heroes beta out this week.  It’s been held back mostly because we’re having trouble with the self-shadowing.

Shadows are a pain in the butt.  In Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion, more engineering hours were spent on the self-shadowing than anything else. But ya gotta do it. It’s one of those uncanny valley things.

Game Geeking

Derek (Kael) and I have been going over various UI elements, particularly regarding the behavior of selected units.  Most of you don’t know this but Derek and I lived together for a year.  When he first joined Stardock, he lived in Ohio and until his family could find the right place here in Michigan, he lived with me and my family.  I can honestly say, now that they have their own place, we really miss having him live with us (my 6 year old in particular asks when Derek is coming home).  So a lot of day time gets “wasted” now discussing game stuff like when units should be centered on the screen or how much we wish we could steal and clone Soren Johnnson’s brain.

You’d be surprised how much time can be spent discussing the best way to implement shadows.  Baking vs. dynamic. How realistic should they be? How much perf should they be allowed to use (memory vs. GPU).  As geeks, we never get tired of this stuff.

Starcraft 2

I’ve spent too much time playing Starcraft 2: Heart of the Swarm.  Tom Chick, aka, the meanest man in the world, has a review on it.  Personally, I’m loving HOTS but having not played SC2 since it was relatively new, I’m not sure how much of the awesomeness is in HOTS and how much has evolved in free updates. In either event, Blizzard deserves a lot of credit for turning a strategy game into its own ecosystem.  I am particularly impressed with their AI which provides a good, if decisively non-human, challenge.

DLC

I’m getting a lot of emails regarding post LH DLC.  Yes, we plan to make it but we basically want to focus on making LH as good as we can and then after release find out what people want us to make. 

Yes, we’re still hiring

We’re looking for more experienced game developers. Stardock pays well and has lots of fringe benefits (personal fitness trainer, nutrionists, movie days, etc.).  There won’t be any MP in any of the Elemental games until we can hire at least 1 more network developers.  We want MP. I agree with the arguments for it. I think LH in particular lends itself to it. But I have to have coders who can do it.   I’ve literally got 2 people on the games side of the company who can do that work and they’re working on future games that absolutely have to have MP. 

Stay tuned

I am still hoping we make this week for LH.  The current plan is for LH to go “gold” this Spring.  We’re friends with the Snowbird guys and we agreed we’d come out after they come out so that no one is stealing the other’s thunder. Here’s my plug for Eador: Masters of the Broken World.  If you want to see a game with a good use of shadows, check that game out.  Talk about a beautiful looking game.  They have another game coming out that I think has been announced called Caribbean (think 17th century RPG).  Keep an eye on Snowbird.  As a child of the 80s, I get a great deal of joy interacting with game developers in the former Soviet Union.  It just goes to show how much better the world is today than it was 30 years ago.

231,277 views 95 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

However much time you're spending on the UI, double it!  I'm a big fan of UI.  I need good UI!

 

P.S.  Oh and make it moddable so anything you don't get right, the modders will.  :-)

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I just purchased Endless Space a few days age and am loving it.  Buy that game Frogboy and rip off the UI.  Just steal it.  Study it.  Live it.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Personally, I don't care about shadows. IMO, just bake them in and be done with it.

Dynamic seems like too much work for something most people won't pay that much attention to.

 

Or maybe I'm in the minority and shadows are more important than AI, UI and depth, engagement and play-ability.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Finally an update.

 

I said it first Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Shadows.  To think this is holding up the release is ridiculous.  Sorry but you guys need a reality check 95% of your player base couldn't give a rats about shadows.  You guys need some customer metrics or data.  Brad talked about shadows incessantly in the promo video, what gives?  Reality check guys.

 

Endless space UI is a work of art, in fact I bought that game just because of the UI, haven't played much though...lol

 

I am part of the Eador beta and it's a great game, it has depth and detail.  It has an old school feel, although not much innovation from Genesis.  Not sure if they will make their date though.  Stardock take note of their tactical combat AI.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Good to hear. Spring launch cool!

 

Whats wrong with coming to Michigan to work? To cold? Living expenses are really low compared to other states. I guess moving away from family and friends.

 

Its good to hear your considering multiplayer. Probably best to add it last to keep everyone happy. 

 

Also mqpiffle makes good point stealing the in ES UI and also take a look at Stardrives UI.  :grin:

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Provided I have the option to (and I hope I will), I'll be turning shadows off.  I don't even really want them in Skyrim let alone a top-down strategy game (the shadows in Skyrim really piss me off, too, because unless you have them set to "your GPU will catch fire", they look like ass, even with mods; that's not really relevant, though).  I disagree with "ya gotta do it", because it really just isn't going to add anything to the game, IMO.  I'd rather the game not have shadows and instead those engineering hours were spent on other things, and I'm not even being specific about what things.  I've only got blob shadows enabled in Starcraft 2, and I've only got those enabled because they're helpful in determining positioning sometimes.

Shadows eat up a lot of processing power for something that contributes so little.  I'd rather just do without them.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Darxim, reply 6

Provided I have the option to (and I hope I will), I'll be turning shadows off.  I don't even really want them in Skyrim let alone a top-down strategy game (the shadows in Skyrim really piss me off, too, because unless you have them set to "your GPU will catch fire", they look like ass, even with mods; that's not really relevant, though).  I disagree with "ya gotta do it", because it really just isn't going to add anything to the game, IMO.  I'd rather the game not have shadows and instead those engineering hours were spent on other things (and I'm not even being specific about what things here).  I've only got blob shadows enabled in Starcraft 2 (and I've only got those enabled because they're helpful in determining positioning sometimes).

Shadows eat up a lot of processing power for something that contributes so little.  I'd rather just do without them.

 

I have to agree with this, I don't even use shadows in FPS's let alone in RTS's n such, I don't require them and they do nothing for me as far as gameplay goes. hell I have them disabled in FE as well so chances are if I can have them disabled in LH I sure will.

 

The time being spent on shadows would be better put else where.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Idea: Could GGPO work as a online code for a TBS game?  I have my doubts, but it is fairly cheap to license.

 

 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

It's your game, Brad; take your time and make it how you want.  Haters gonna hate.  Fortunately for them there's the :waaaa:

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Now you're just screwing with us.  Yeah, we probably deserve it after that last thread.

There is a certain line where visuals are important in a game.  It's odd integrating it into an expansion which is already going to be limited scope... but whatever floats your boat.  

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

It's not so odd when you consider that this is the first game series of an engine that will be used for future games coming down the pike.

 

That said, for LH, I find the visual quality sufficient already, so holding back just because of shadows isn't something I particuarly like- I was hoping it was because you were working on balancing/bugfixing, which is what is most important.

 

 

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Wow, I have never noticed shadows in any game I have played. Don't get me wrong, I love good graphics and pretty games. I even have play 1st and 3rd person rpgs/shooters on occasion, but I still never notice shadows on or off unless I am looking for them. Even then it has almost no aesthetic effect for me. It amazes me how much effort is apparently put in to them.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Shadows are usually the first thing I turn off in graphics options, because they either 1) look like shit or 2) causes massive FPS loss due to CPU/GPU drain.

However, I am cautiously optimistic going by the screenshots.

As a modder, I hope you went for dynamic shadows rather than "baked".

 

 

PS. These guys have dispatched assassins to your office: http://stormworld.wikidot.com/faction:shadows

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Thank you for good work so far!

 

I will definitely keep the shadows and appreciate them ;)

 

Eagerly awaiting LH Beta announcement:)

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Shadows is cool when you have a good system. Estetics have its value. :)

 

I'm also glad the Frog now see the value of MP in turn based strategy. Hopefully we can get that coder hired.

This game would be in the Civilization IV-V league when it comes to multiplayer fun. I'd play the hell out of it, and it would reach those 1000's upon 1000's of hours I've spent on Civilization and Europa Universalis MP. :beer:

 

NB! This also promises well for the future GalCiv3. I bet Stardock will make sure it has good working MP from day 1. Please remember to keep all those good features that makes the SP game so great; like the ingame unit designer. Just positive that people have some other stash to do while waiting for others to finish their turns, and it's pretty original to see such things in MP-games. Rule number 1: we want the great singleplayer game, just playable in multiplayer as well.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 9

It's your game, Brad; take your time and make it how you want.  Haters gonna hate.  Fortunately for them there's the

 

That's a bit strong, don't you think? Customers are expressing their opinion, and at the end of the day, you have to make the customer happy.

Sure, some people (including myself) could have been more tactful, but this is valuable feedback that any smart businessman would, at least, take into consideration. 

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Borg999, reply 18

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 9
It's your game, Brad; take your time and make it how you want.  Haters gonna hate.  Fortunately for them there's the

 

That's a bit strong, don't you think? Customers are expressing their opinion, and at the end of the day, you have to make the customer happy.

Sure, some people (including myself) could have been more tactful, but this is valuable feedback that any smart businessman would, at least, take into consideration. 

 

Every single soul claim they represent the customers when they voice their opinion here. What the common customer really wants can't be decided by the people with the highest voices at the forum. A wise developer listens to those things they think can improve the current game design (within the economical limits), and lends a deaf ear to most other things.

Better make a great game based on your visions. Trying to please everybody only results in a messy soup of a product. Just look at american familiy comedy shows.... Quality has gone out of the window a long time ago, if it ever was there.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NorsemanViking, reply 19



Every single soul claim they represent the customers when they voice their opinion here. What the common customer really wants can't be decided by the people with the highest voices at the forum. A wise developer listens to those things they think can improve the current game design (within the economical limits), and lends a deaf ear to most other things.

Better make a great game based on your visions. Trying to please everybody only results in a messy soup of a product. Just look at american familiy comedy shows.... Quality has gone out of the window a long time ago, if it ever was there.

 

Now you're going a bit overboard here. I never claimed my voice represented the view of all customers. If you look at the current responses, far more are are saying that shadows aren't a significant factor in game-play than those who say it's vital. Sure, people on forums are the loudest voices, but they are also the most "invested" customers, and it's reasonable to extrapolate the views here to the general customer base.

I'm certainly going to purchase LH when it's released, as will most others, but there is already a thread on the board discussing whether to wait for LH or purchase other games. 

I guess we can agree to disagree, but IMO, a business that doesn't listen to it's customers does so at it peril, in the long run. 

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

I appreciate the work you guys do. But if it might help, I want to make it clear:

 

Couldn't care less about shadows. I, too, instantly turn them off. I'd love to see you add more random events, more DLC, diplomacy changes...anything over shadows. 

 

That said, looking forward to what you make, shadows and all. 

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

I hate to sound negative, you can check my comment history, because I'm usually a very positive commenter, but are you guys trolling us our are you really THAT focused on shadows and not getting this out for balance and feedback purposes?

 

You guys really do need a reality check. I couldn't care less about shadows. I only care about decent visuals and superb gameplay.

It seems as though I'm certainly not the only one. Worry about the shadows later.

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top


Thought I should post to defend the shadows. If you have a good system they can really add to the atmosphere of a game.

 

Maybe in a strategy game they are less important than in a game like Skyrim, but they still add something.

 

Looking forward to the beta.

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd sooner want pedestrians for 32-bit machines than shadows for 32-bit machines. Honestly, throughout all of FE, I never once thought "wow...this game could/should really have shadows".

 

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm concerned that's gotten sidetracked playing Starcraft2  ;-)