I can't seem to get a good start.

Check out this thread that Tuidjy put together: https://forums.elementalgame.com/435680

People are gun shy on making maps, but it really is worth it. Not everyone knows it, but you actually generate a random map and then have the option to balance the map. The map generator is not perfect. But you can perfect it yourself to make sure every player has a fair start. It's also nice to make sure no one is going to start right next to another. Of course the negative is that you will know the whole map when you start. The choice becomes the excitement and then letdown of exploring a poorly balanced map and the unfair advantage of foreknowledge. But then again, the AI is best set to see the whole map anyways. So really you are just on a level playing field.

Which one would you rather have?

 

I never just load a randomly imbalanced map anymore.

I just got busy getting my ass handed to me again, this is ridiculous. Sitting on top of the nearby colony spots for me is were a bunch of glass cannons (great wolf, and his stupid enrage, the wolves have 9HP but can move across the map and obliterate anything), and a group of 3 ice wargs wandering aimlessly. Meanwhile Verga has an army of midgame warriors with iron weapons (maces) and max defense coming to slaughter me by the time I get a second city going. This is retarded, the wandering monsters and lairs are like a random minefield of f-you doom...

 

It's like turn 150, and he had like 5 cities, to my two. There's a stupid forest drake sitting on top of the second patch of colonizeable land (like I can do anything about that early on). Why does the AI never get F-d like this?

The AI does get unfortunate start points more than you think. I've seen it and this is where you get the threads of rampaging dragons on turn 50. Because in earlier patches tha AI just didn't care about those Forest Drakes like you do, it's been getting better, but they still have a death wish... unlike us.

I don't know. Maybe you just need to learn some stronger strategies. Most of the early game is about leveling your Sov. Without watching you play, I can only think that it is a combination of being new to the game and bad luck. I play on a difficulty that is known to cause ears to bleed and have few problems. It's mostly a matter of learning to deal with your environment.

This is a real good point. Playing on the easier difficulties gives you a false sense of what your sovereign can handle early on. Mobs at these higher difficulties are significantly harder and knowing which ones you can safely handle with what troops is completely different than in easier difficulties. This is the learning curve that most people speak about.

Also, knowing when to combine champions and knowing when to seperate them for XP is also an important part of leveling up your Sovereign. Quest XP is NOT divided between champions, but fighting XP is divided.

i'm very much for normalized starts. Not same starts, just that all are weighted to have similar value. And would also be nice for sov and faction selections to have impact on map creation. Seems everytime i go for a horselord faction there is no horse in sight. Sucks to customize faction for a style of play the random map will not allow. 

I think that you are right, and it is NOT a good thing.

I never play without a strategy to deal with big monsters early.  I know a few, and I listed them somewhere... dodging+blindness, size manipulation, quest loop, beastlord, jugs, leading by the nose, etc...

But what should you do when you do not have any of these? If you are trying to play a race without ANY particular strength (like Procipinee)  If you get a bad start, you're dead, and worst of all, you do not know you got a terrible start until turn 30 or so.

I agree. It should not be the case that you have to seriously game things to ensure survival, but that is what mods are for. Every time I see some BS mechanic or lair starting some shit, I delete it and restart the game. I am sure the devs do this to and it will eventually end up so that the vanilla game has very few of these situations. But that won't be soon. Instead of shelving the game and waiting till next year to see a better game balance, go mod crazy, or play on preset maps that are fair. Or game things beyond any semblance of a strategy game. Dealer's choice. 

I find the early game the most difficult part of the game. The faction and the sov traits plays a lot, so depending what are you playing, things may change.

Anyway, there are a few common tips:

- Build an army for your champs as soon as possible (clubmen first, later spears). That will help them to survive.

- Pick wisely your fights. Making an army is long, so try not losing units in battle. Fight them personally, don't autoresolve, to improve chances of saving hurted units.

- For that reason, stay far from medium/big monsters. Look for other safer places to settle. It is better to have 5 cities with no esssence that only 1 or 2 with essence.

- Read these forums to learn strategics that surely will help you improving your gameplay. Ask for any doubt you may find.

 

 

Put the monsters on Sparse.  Moderate is basically roads filled to bursting with monsters.  Dense is probably like 'What about his legs, they don't need no legs,' the monsters will be fighting about who gets to eat you first, but I haven't tried it.

Unless you are playing on a slow speed, you should have been able to wipe out those Drakes and other city-blocking monsters already.  What sort of combat strategies are you using?  You ought to be able to take out most Medium / Strong monsters with basic 6-unit armies of four archers and two meatshield infantry clad in as much armor as possible.  Designing your own units is critical, there is a world of difference between a default Spearman and one with the +3 health-per-unit, +3 defense and +1 attack / +15 weight allowance traits.  Because it can take a long time to train troops, keep some Gildar on hand to cash-rush units when they get within a few turns of completion.  Setting at least a couple cities as Fortresses and then building Training Yards will both improve unit stats and construction times.  

Tactics matter a lot too.  Don't auto-resolve most battles, the game can be weird with deciding outcomes.  In the example of the Great Wolf pack, you probably will never be able to beat it with just an early game Sov + Champ.  But Sov + Champ + two Spearmen should be perfect- position everything but your Sov in the backlines, and your Sov up front.  Sov draws wolf attacks, might die in the first round of combat but all that does is cost you a little bit of mana.  Then your spears + Champ should be able to kill most of the now-exposed wolves.  

 

Your champions sound like they could really benefit from some enchantments.  Stoneskin increases defense, Air I has a spell which ups dodge, and Life I has a spell which raises hit points.  Any and all of those will increase survivability (particularly Stoneskin).  

 

The computer is getting way ahead of you because 150 turns is plenty of time to settle five cities, and having over twice your city count means they will easily out-research and build you.  

Yeah knowing the map ahead of time takes the exploration out of 4x. Back with Civ3 i tried to get a map swap thing going. i make a map and upload it to the collective, you make a map, he makes one, she makes, and we all got balanced unspoiled maps. 

hmmm.. but maybe these cntrl-n'able maps are tactic to get us to buy Map Pack DLC. lol of course not, i'm just having fun at Brads expense while illustrating a value of said DLC.


i'd really like to play maps that are not only balanced, but have starts based on faction lore. Horselords have horse. Mages have essence etc. Might have to work for them, but they ought be there near abouts for us to more fully enjoy/express our faction and sovereign uniqueness.   

The game seems to load a tier 1 monster right around your starter cities and in a circle outwards increases the difficulty. You will see this is the AI hasn't cleared around their starter city. After wading through tons of difficult mobs to get there, you will see wolves and darklings again. So, you should start out okay if you are careful. Those mobs will generally not attack your city and if they do they will die against a rank 2 city.

Having said all of that, you may need to build a militia troop to keep your sov and starter hero alive. Beeline for any refugee camp, or old woman's hut or whatever, these will get you powerful archers and decent spearmen.

Hit every weapon cache or other special to get loot, don't forget to step on the lairs of mobs other than ogres because it may not have the loot symbol but still has something in the space.

Your starter city should be on at least an 8 total square, with at least 2 essence and preferably 3 or 4 mats. Some people may like more growth, but building a granary in a 2 mat city takes a while when you could be doing something else. Basically I feel that the more mats you have to start the greater turn benefit you are seeing over your rivals. The good thing is mobs don't spawn in Fog if you have taken out their lairs, so you can clear and area and send your pioneers there unmolested.

If you are still having trouble, death or fire gets you a nice 1 target, relatively low cost and high damage attack on rank 2 (disciple), which you should normally be offered at level 3 if you start with one of those. I don't start with them because I play Kingdom and normally Pariden, but your experience may differ.

Also, beast master is way over powered early game so you might have some luck with that.

There's your biggest mistake right there.  Have you tried walking your pioneer over there and plunking down a city?  Because by far the most likely result is that the monster will just wander off.  Sure, in 20-50 turns it might come back and wreck your stuff, but that's true of all monsters, and 20-50 turns later your city (and your heroes) will be far more capable of defeating it.

My strategy is to give monster placement very low priority when planning my expansion.  If I have two equal spots except that one doesn't displace a monster, I'll go for that one.  But otherwise, I just take the best spot and cross my fingers that I don't get an unlucky roll before I can defend.

Monsters, generally, don't want to attack your stuff.  They do so accidentally or in a quest to attack units.

I think on Challenging, the AI gets a 5/3/2 start every time.  I almost never get that start.  

You just need to be patient and learn the leveling part a bit. The wolf pack is easy with some tanking etc. at start, even with just sovereign+champ. When your champion gets enough defense items, they become a walk in the park. (mobs always focus your champion for some reason, so pimp him up first)

Though the ridicilousness of world mobs is the main part hampering the game so far. AI never cleans and is immune to monsters it seems, so they get a stupid advantage over you cause of it. (yes stupid, because all those mobs the AI doesn't clean, will annoy you to no end once you beat the AI) And there is way too much roaming, and too little zoning. Early game you might have to reload here and there to not get your cities (yes I cleaned the area first as well) pummeled by a random walking mob. (the AI is at fault here with it's immune monster thingie, FUCK TONS of mobs roam around cause of AI settling)

But these issues should hopefully be settled eventually with better maps, and better monster AI, and then it will be a much better game.

i'm seeing bigger monsters than wolves bears and weeny mobs at secondary city sites. Takes some mid-game firepower to end many of them. i still get by for essentially an unchallenged win on challenging, but understand player frustration, particularly if they haven't spent enough time with the game and its predecessor to know a bit about these quirks. i see room for improvement here. Workarounds are workarounds. Fixes and balance are something else. i see need of some fix here. Might just be me ? 

I'll concur with what a couple of other people have already mentioned.  Namely, it is extremely useful to have two or three (preferably three) ARCHERS in your party.  Ranged attacks are the way to go early in the game because you may get to do two or three turns of damage before the monsters can close with you.

Along the same line, keep an eye out for some immediate-casting spells for your Sovs & Champions to do while they are waiting for the monsters to get to them.

Another good tactic is to pre-position your melee fighters so that, when the time comes, they can all pounce on the monsters together.  Remember also that 'local-superiority' is a good thing.  It's better to have three fighters do 1/3 damage to a single monster (and killing it) than to have them do 1/3 damage to three separate monsters, who go on to deliver three separate attacks on their turn.

Pay attention to things that improve dodging and/or initiative.  These are useful in a battle.

Bob Chillingworth's comments above are especially useful.

Finally got a good start going, when along about turn 100 a Guardian Statue backed up by a giant stack of scrap golems decides to go on a rampage through my lands obliterating all it sees. The stack has about 600 HP...

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Rare I got a good stuff something like 4/4/3 or 2, even in normal or easier level....but there is sometime 4/4/0 but you know last number, more number the better power you cast on it are...

 

If i design a magic faction and sov, i often end with no essence nor crystal but  nice enough 3/3/0 to 3/4/0 to suit my melee and barbarian etc  builds. If i go melee i oft get the 5/2/1. Is fracking frustrating to design a play style which is immediately defeated upon the world map dice roll. i don't dig this, and see the weak map generation as detrimental to the whole concept of customization. What is the point of RP'ing a lore when the map don't near ever cooperate. i think this needs be altered. It just don't fit.. our customization and RP vs the RNG. 

Hunting for these these things and working to get them in the early game is one thing. i do dig that! But when these are only available through late game conquest, then what the heck is the point in RP'ing a lore when the map near never fits ? 

Yes, I agree and it's very annying...I find that melee is much easier to playing than power playing (mage stuff)

When playing as kingdom, I rare, it's very rare to get those horse, even metal....crazy...

Yeah i'm tending towards a generic multi-purpose build. i resist this, but tire of creating story that can't possibly be told. It feels wrong this, with all these customization tools and the interest they bring towards playing within a diversity.