1 Summon per champion restriction needs to be gone.

agreed, summoning has almost 0 appeal to me with summoning limits, if you have tha mana to upkeep them, then let it be so

++

Hm this might have merit, I would much rather see summons being worth it in the end, but summoning a number of elementals would be a cool tactic to be able to use too.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Yeah, both could work Kongdej. Remove the limit on summons, and improve the higher end summons (need more of those, too) - but also increase their casting cost/upkeep. Then you can choose between several cheap summons or one good one for the same cost, depending on the situation.

I want to see epic 100+ mana/10+ upkeep summons on the scale of other strategic spells, balanced against the existing ~30 mana/1 upkeep weak and expendable ones. The only way we can have the epic summons without making the weaker ones obsolete is if you can get multiple weaker ones.

I'd even be ok leaving it at one and just giving us more variety. The summons spellbook has it's own section, but it's so lonely.  When my lvl 20 mage has 3 things it can summon that's a little low.  I will say the elemental summon's are all quite good.

While I certainly agree that the summoning field of magic is lacking I would be careful as to asking for the summoning restriction to be gone completly.

While it would certainly help for the early game and give more appeal to the magic tech tree(in terms of mana upkeep techs), it would completly break the balance of powers later in the game (mid to late game):

Being able of summoning 3/4 fire elemental level 4 early could certainly help. But being able to spam entire armies of level 9 or 10 fire elemental would be totally game breaking imo.

As of now, as soon as your mage(s) hits some comfortable levels (let's say 10-12) you can definilty spare a point into the summoning trait to have a beefy summon by your side or to send where you need it to be. One fire or earth elemental ranging from level 8-10 can wreck havoc in any army with their spells, cloak, AoE spells and such...

Implementing multiple summons for one given mage could be fun but I think one of the only way to balance it though would be to increase the mana upkeep in accordance with the level of the summons. You would be able to summon 3-4 summons (lvl 1-4) for 1 mana upkeep, but then you would have to spend more as they level up.

I think this is unquestionably right. There already is a restriction on your numbers of summons - the mana upkeep.  As long as a summon doesn't have free upkeep, you should be able to summon n creatures, as many as you can sustain the mana for. The actual summoning of the creature should have a significant manacost too, so there's some penalty to replacing dead ones.

If you're going to focus on summoning, you should be able to have your soverign wandering around with an army of creatures of their own making.

oh, and if you run out of mana for your summons, it'd be nice if they broke free of your control and turned on you ^^

That's kinda the point, though. High level, well equipped melee champions are game breaking. Damage spells fueled by plenty of shards and a high level mage are game breaking. Fully tech'ed up, spared-no-expense trained units from a maxed out fortress are game breaking. Summons are not, and won't be even if you can spam 9 of them. I'm all for balance, and this suggestion would only improve it - summons are so far behind the curve right now it'd take more than this for them to break the game balance.

Props to Stardock for not making AI so hardcoded....

I also found out making summons available early helps AIs so much. Suddenly AIs playing the game much better.

I also made all of icons for all summons I've done so far. It is actually playable by human player, and I might post it as a small mod if anyone is interested in.

I think perhaps in the magic tech tree you should be able to unlock additional summons, maybe to a total of 4 by the end. But seriously, the game is not balanced for a mage with 4 elementals and whatever other troops you may have. I guess that's why it is limited to 1.

Have you tried a Beastlord Sov with a hoarder Spider, 2 harridan and some corpse? Oh, and a great wolf to enrage them...

I'd like to try a summoner Sov now, so please, give us the mini-mod.

Summoning sucks dick.  What is worth a shit to summon?  Earth elementals are pretty decent.  I once got a spell that allowed me to summon Aberrations freed Juggernauts   that was cool, but can't remember how I got it.  Other than that, I can't think of a reason to use it.  

I find summon ice elemental the most useful summon in the vanilla game. It's instant unlike the earth/fire summons, it can tank a tough enemy like a dragon for a turn (which can potentially 1 hit champions otherwise), plus inflicting slow on high level enemies is really useful. 

I'd say getting rid of the extra turns needed to cast earth/fire summon tactically would make sense. Just make them cost more mana to cast. 

Your ice elemental can tank for one turn?  Does that mean he can get hit once and die?  That's all mine can do.  My problem with the ice elemental, is how fragile it is.  It's ability to slow is nice, but it's pretty weak and cost a chunk of mana to cast.  If I need a meat shield for one turn, than it's better than nothing, but it's not something to build a champ/sov around.

I'd agree there.

And as far as strategic summons, maybe have each successive cast cost one more mana. I.E., to have one ice elemental would cost 1 mana/turn. To have 2 ice elementals would cost 1 + 2=3 mana/turn, 6 mana/turn for 3, etc.

summoning II gives you 2 creatures to summon, doesn't it?

Does it?  Shit, I guess I would have to take summoning 1 to ever find out, and I doubt I ever had.

No, it does not. It just allows you to summon something with 1 level higher, or basically a summon with more HP. It's not really that useful.

As far as the ice ele tanking, yeah it's usually just 1 turn for something tough like a Dragon or even a bone ogre. With that said, I suppose "tank" isn't the right word. Maybe playing decoy is more apt. I still find it worthwhile, as it's a way to keep the dragon from attacking something more important for 1 round. Especially when it can do things like fire breath that can waste multiple non-summoned units at once.

With a path of mage champ I think ice ele summon is only around 10 or so mana to cast. It's dirt cheap if you have that ocean aura enchantment going +take affinity.

edit:actually it costs 20 mana to cast, which is fairly high. Only around 10 with all that stuff I mentioned.

Definately agree that the concept of summoning NEEDS a revisit. Being able to summon multiple copies of creatures would be an excellant start. Being able to summon more variety would be awesome as well.

However, I caution that summoning can't become too powerful that troops are again ignored. The fact that summoning doesn't require use of the city queue in itself is a HUGE benefit. If you had the ability to create an army through those means, troop production would cease.

I'm also not suggesting that summoning be too weak...else no one will persue it (as is in it's current state). IMO, the should be a Path of the Summoner, or perhaps a Sub-path to that of the mage for summoning so that mages can create solid summoned units if specialized to do so that are comparable to trained units. (maybe weaker summoned units if no training.....average with some training....and above average if specialized)

To add to the idea, the ability to summon SHOULD be just that: The ability to summon. The rest of the concept SHOULD be just as how the Binding spiders are treated. Have the ability to queue the summoned creature in your city training and have it cost mana + production instead of metal or crystal. The summoning duration can be shorter than normal troops since it's costing mana, which is valuable.

Combat summoning could and should still be instant casting since the creature disappears after combat ends....but permanent summoning seems like it should take a longer duration to materalize the creature, since you're getting the unit for a potentially indefinate period of time.

(besides, in MoM, summoned units all took time to build too).

The same should go for Knights of Asok, Wildings, Ogre mounds, etc etc. Rather than having incremental spawning times for these unit types, obtaining these sites should simply grant the closest city the ability to train these units in your queue. (Maybe give the first one for free at the site when obtained as an incentive and to show the player what the unit can do.....obviously, something would have to be done here so that a player does not raze, and rebuild the site for multiple free units). This ultimately gives the player the control as to whether or not those units are worth persuing. (those wildings need some kind of buff...maybe include a shaman).

Thoughts? Comments?

I like that idea but after the battle with your own army the summons must dispear if there win or loose, or else you'll have players summoring a lot of high level things that there can only upkeap for a few turns and heading next to an npc city. Then the summons will breack kill your mage he returns to a near by frendily city with an injure followed by the summons wreacking the npc's city and so fourth.

I miss the summoning game from MoM, where my entire empire would focus mana generation (instead of gold and troops) and then I would just spew out armies of hellhounds, skeleton raiders, zombies, basilisks, you name it.

Hmmm... (Fires up MoM)

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I think I like not having summoned units go to a build que. Same thing with the monster allies. Having those on an auto spawner keeps it simple, and in this case I see simple as better.

Although, if summons did use a build que it seems to me that the conflux settlements should be better than forts or towns for adding bonuses to them.

I hate the idea of putting those useless things on the building que.  No way no how.  They moved them away from there because they were never used.  The way that those resources work now is fantastic.  Sure, they have a few hiccups with merc and knight upkeep and some are fairly uselss, but at least they don't take resources or que space.  going back to that would be a headache.

I would be intrested in that mini-mod aswell, made a custom race to focus on summoning and was very dissapointed by the 1 summon rule...

Also agree with the path of the summoner or split up after mage

Suggestion: splits at level 3 and 6

Mages can go for +damage + cheaper spells / +buffing +summoner spells.

Warriors can go for +damage / +initiation and both get combat spells

Defenders can go for "general" (bonuses to all units in army) / combat (extra counterattacks and defense + fortify?

Assassin can go for ranged / can get poison on bow + accuracy and better armor piercing  / accuracy + crits + dodge as melee 

Diplomat (should automaticly get xp/turn) can go for gold + research / unrest + production + influence