Frogboy Frogboy

Elemental: Fallen Enchantress Beta 4 Preview

Elemental: Fallen Enchantress Beta 4 Preview

This next week we are hoping (but not promising) to put out the 4th beta of Fallen Enchantress.  Beta 4 will be focusing on overall gameplay with special attention to the underlying city mechanics and user interface.  We expect this beta to last approximately a month at which point we’ll be releasing Beta 5 which will be all about balance, fixing any remaining bugs, polish, etc.

Here’s a video I did yesterday that shows how the start of the game has changed:

 

 
 
!! UPDATE !!
 
Here's a longer walkthrough:
264,428 views 122 replies
Reply #26 Top

Brad, you have a very loud mouse click.  It's loud enough to have an echo!  :grin:

 

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 24
It's the same sound effect that's always been in there for that.  Feel free to suggest a different one and I'll pass it on to Derek.

 

I think where your sound settings are different from mine, it was really noticeable for me. I changed mine to a sound from AOW Shadow Magic, the one when you get gold on the map.

Reply #29 Top


Really like what's shown here in the video.

Still a little hesitant to the idea of having all resources from an outpost directed to a city (as opposed to having to choose 1 or 2 of them), but I suppose that's how empires are built.

Looking forward to putting in some game time this weekend. XD

Reply #30 Top

I haven't been following the forums in a few months, but Beta 4 is looking very interesting. Can't wait.

Reply #31 Top

Don't be smart alecky guys, Brad was just doing a quick play-by to show off beta 4. There was no need for him to play optimally, it would've only prolonged the video. Besides, Anna is fine. :)

Still, it would probably be better if ASPCA didn't find out about Brad using his pet as cannon fodder. 

 

Edit: 

The "strength" trait should give some kind of combat bonus as well, not just carry weight. Unless one wants to rename it to "strong back" or "packrat". 

Reply #32 Top

Frogboy programs the game's AI. It is crucial that he understands how to optimize his own gameplay, in order to optimize the AI's. This is not a case of one player trying to one-up another player. This is a case of the AI developer making obvious mistakes which are then repeated by the game's AI. You see Frogboy moving all his units poorly in the tactical battle? And does that remind you of how the AI moves its units? It should... so when we are giving critique for Frogboy's gameplay, it's because we want a better functioning AI.

Reply #33 Top

What I meant is that FB purposely took the faster rout to keep the video shorter and to the point. Of course he knows he could've kept the wolf (almost) unhurt. Brad has flaws but he's not stupid. 

I just find it funny that people assume he's not aware of something this basic as if he's never played a TBS in his life time. 

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 24
It's the same sound effect that's always been in there for that.  Feel free to suggest a different one and I'll pass it on to Derek.

We are just old that is all :D

On that note, it would be cool if we could in the late-beta / release be able to switch sounds, if we have some sound we would prefer to the opening of a chest etc.

Another idea would have several sounds for entering a goodie hut, depending on the "little story" that pops up, that way people get less annoyed by the same single sound.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #35 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 33
Frogboy programs the game's AI. It is crucial that he understands how to optimize his own gameplay, in order to optimize the AI's. This is not a case of one player trying to one-up another player. This is a case of the AI developer making obvious mistakes which are then repeated by the game's AI. You see Frogboy moving all his units poorly in the tactical battle? And does that remind you of how the AI moves its units? It should... so when we are giving critique for Frogboy's gameplay, it's because we want a better functioning AI.

True but I'm pretty sure Brad was just try to show us some new beta 4 features and not giving us a how to start your game optimally lecture. Like Jean=A=Luc said, this is not the first time he plays a TBS.

Reply #36 Top


This next week we are hoping (but not promising) to put out the 4th beta of Fallen Enchantress.  Beta 4 will be focusing on overall gameplay with special attention to the underlying city mechanics and user interface.  

 

Excellent sneak peak! Thank you, Brad! I am looking forward to testing it as soon as you are able to get it out (though I have to applaud the way that you guys have been taking your time with the beta. Definitely shows with each successive build).

 

One question: are single-city builds competitive now in the early game? I don't mean "single-city builds" in the sense that the player only plans to ever use one city, but given the issues with expanding in the early game, has there been an improvement over beta 3 where using only one city for the first 100 turns was suicide?

It may be tough to do this, and I understand if this issue has not been addressed (for balance and gameplay reasons), but it would go a long way to making starting locations more balanced for the player if there is some "lee-way" for early expansion. 

Reply #37 Top


I am just happy that singel tile citys did not happen.

Reply #38 Top

I'm just wondering if there will be a setting for the tactical battles which will allow you to place priority placement for your party when you enter a tactical battle.  I remember someone suggesting something similar in WoM, if not for this game, but seeing the tactical battles reminds me that the placement of the party can be optimized. 

It's especially annoying those times when the melee unit you want to use immediately has to go around everyone else and thus use up his turn, or when an archer is in front of a melee champ for some reason.

Reply #39 Top


Wow! It playes out just like I hoped and thought after reading the visions for Beta 4 some weeks ago. I can't wait to play this pearl of a game.

I love how you have to make tough decissions in your city build queue now. This will be great fun, and was what was missing the most from the previous betas. I really look forward to develop my cities and outposts now.

After release I will only miss MP and sea and naval stuff. Perhaps some Dynasty dynamics, Minor City States, sieges etc. too. Lots of great stuff to make expansions of. The potential of this game is limitless, it can just keep on growing, and it's now close indeed to a masterpiece that will stand the test of time.

Congrats developers, congrats RPG/TBS/4X/Grand strategy-fans! :D

 

Reply #40 Top

Any news about the Steam pre-purchase and beta on Steam? Or maybe Steam Activation? Thank you.

Reply #41 Top

I am confused. I noted in my post that I assumed he was not trying during the battle. So why do other people feel the need to repeat me? Some just like typing on keyboards I suppose. as;baswgnbbv;gn;egnasdnb'[naenng'ng'n'pngas'enasen'asnas'eng/asneg'nase'gnase'ngaseg'pjasegn'aswge'asg'aseg'asg'asegasgasgaseg'p

Reply #42 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 33
Frogboy programs the game's AI. It is crucial that he understands how to optimize his own gameplay, in order to optimize the AI's. This is not a case of one player trying to one-up another player. This is a case of the AI developer making obvious mistakes which are then repeated by the game's AI. You see Frogboy moving all his units poorly in the tactical battle? And does that remind you of how the AI moves its units? It should... so when we are giving critique for Frogboy's gameplay, it's because we want a better functioning AI.

Agree with this (have noted mistakes in Brad's tactical gameplay before), but the AI cannot play 100% human-like or every tactical battle will stall.  In other words, if the human waits until the AI is in range and the AI waits until the human is in range then no one will move and the battle will stall.  So make the AI smart (i.e. Cast slow on one guy then attack the other), but the AI still needs to make the first move and approach the human player even if it isn't the most tactically sound maneuver.   

Reply #43 Top

Except that the AI is immortal and humans will eventually die. So the AI would win every battle.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 43

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 33Frogboy programs the game's AI. It is crucial that he understands how to optimize his own gameplay, in order to optimize the AI's. This is not a case of one player trying to one-up another player. This is a case of the AI developer making obvious mistakes which are then repeated by the game's AI. You see Frogboy moving all his units poorly in the tactical battle? And does that remind you of how the AI moves its units? It should... so when we are giving critique for Frogboy's gameplay, it's because we want a better functioning AI.

Agree with this (have noted mistakes in Brad's tactical gameplay before), but the AI cannot play 100% human-like or every tactical battle will stall.  In other words, if the human waits until the AI is in range and the AI waits until the human is in range then no one will move and the battle will stall.  So make the AI smart (i.e. Cast slow on one guy then attack the other), but the AI still needs to make the first move and approach the human player even if it isn't the most tactically sound maneuver.   

Unless of course, the AI has ranged and the human doesn't. I'd love to see the AI sit back and fling arrows or spells, and not march heedlessly into death for no reason.

Reply #45 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 24
It's the same sound effect that's always been in there for that.  Feel free to suggest a different one and I'll pass it on to Derek.

Yep it's the old one and I have been hoping it's a placeholder since day one. :)

I'm not a sound designer so I don't know what to suggest to replace it with. I just know that the current one sucks and annoys the hell out of me, and judging by the replies I'm not alone. I'm sure you have experts that can cook up something more neutral and atmospheric.

It just doesn't make sense to hear what you hear when you pick up a sword from an abandoned wagon.

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 43

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 33Frogboy programs the game's AI. It is crucial that he understands how to optimize his own gameplay, in order to optimize the AI's. This is not a case of one player trying to one-up another player. This is a case of the AI developer making obvious mistakes which are then repeated by the game's AI. You see Frogboy moving all his units poorly in the tactical battle? And does that remind you of how the AI moves its units? It should... so when we are giving critique for Frogboy's gameplay, it's because we want a better functioning AI.

Agree with this (have noted mistakes in Brad's tactical gameplay before), but the AI cannot play 100% human-like or every tactical battle will stall.  In other words, if the human waits until the AI is in range and the AI waits until the human is in range then no one will move and the battle will stall.  So make the AI smart (i.e. Cast slow on one guy then attack the other), but the AI still needs to make the first move and approach the human player even if it isn't the most tactically sound maneuver.   

I know the "Heroes" series worked extensively in this area, so if your really interested try out heroes 5 for example to see how they did, had a fantastic AI compared to it being an AI.  It should really put these decisions into a multiple formula answering thingie, if I have more archer power than the enemy, try making my melee's form a chokepoint. - If I have less archerpower than the enemy, move melee's forward in a sensible manner, etc.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 43

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 33Frogboy programs the game's AI. It is crucial that he understands how to optimize his own gameplay, in order to optimize the AI's. This is not a case of one player trying to one-up another player. This is a case of the AI developer making obvious mistakes which are then repeated by the game's AI. You see Frogboy moving all his units poorly in the tactical battle? And does that remind you of how the AI moves its units? It should... so when we are giving critique for Frogboy's gameplay, it's because we want a better functioning AI.

Agree with this (have noted mistakes in Brad's tactical gameplay before), but the AI cannot play 100% human-like or every tactical battle will stall.  In other words, if the human waits until the AI is in range and the AI waits until the human is in range then no one will move and the battle will stall.  So make the AI smart (i.e. Cast slow on one guy then attack the other), but the AI still needs to make the first move and approach the human player even if it isn't the most tactically sound maneuver.   

 

I think archers/ranged units should be what alleviates this scenario. 

Reply #48 Top

I love that we're now at a point with this game's development where the most often mentioned critiques within a thread are those concerning sound effects.  Excellent work!  This has been an immensely fun gaming experience so far (notwithstanding the first few days after WoM came out, obviously).

Reply #49 Top

Quoting rudythemad, reply 49
I love that we're now at a point with this game's development where the most often mentioned critiques within a thread are those concerning sound effects.  Excellent work!  This has been an immensely fun gaming experience so far (notwithstanding the first few days after WoM came out, obviously).

yeah when the major issues are sound effects and fonts, you know you're on the right track.

Reply #50 Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 43

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 33Frogboy programs the game's AI. It is crucial that he understands how to optimize his own gameplay, in order to optimize the AI's. This is not a case of one player trying to one-up another player. This is a case of the AI developer making obvious mistakes which are then repeated by the game's AI. You see Frogboy moving all his units poorly in the tactical battle? And does that remind you of how the AI moves its units? It should... so when we are giving critique for Frogboy's gameplay, it's because we want a better functioning AI.

Agree with this (have noted mistakes in Brad's tactical gameplay before), but the AI cannot play 100% human-like or every tactical battle will stall.  In other words, if the human waits until the AI is in range and the AI waits until the human is in range then no one will move and the battle will stall.  So make the AI smart (i.e. Cast slow on one guy then attack the other), but the AI still needs to make the first move and approach the human player even if it isn't the most tactically sound maneuver.   


I don't follow your logic at all. A stalemate because noone wants to suffer first strike would only occur if you are fighting 1 unit vs 1 unit. As soon as you have more than 1 unit on each side, the stalemate would never occur if the AI played it smart.

What the AI currently does:

In the above screenshot, it moved all 3 red units into attack range. The human player will land 3 first strikes and the AI will lose.

 

What the AI should be doing:

The human player now is forced to focus all its first strikes on a single red unit (preferably a tank unit or an expendable unit such as militia). The following moves the AI can use its two undamaged units to attack because the human units are now in attack range AND THEY ARE NOT AUTO-DEFENDING making them squishy.

This is just an extremely crude example of why doing what Frogboy does is bad, and makes for a shitty tactical AI. I've been saying this since early E:wom days and it remains unchanged.

The AI should be at the level of chess engines when it comes to deciding moves. And by that I mean it should be able to think 10 moves ahead with ease. Instead it has a very simplistic "target lowest hitpoint unit, attack/move/spell" system that makes tactical battles boring and easy to game.

Seriously, even if I'm fighting 5-6 units vs 10 AI units, it is rare that I suffer a single unit lost. In 80% of the scenarios NONE OF MY UNITS ARE EVEN DAMAGED at the end of battle. So that's what is going on with tactical AI. It's bad.