[0.915] [Discission] Zero tax at game start: Cheese or Strategy?

And possible reasons for Max Taxing...

from Elemental Forums

I think this could be an important part of the balance for some player, especially new ones.  I know I didn't even touch taxes for quite a few games, and then only for a few turns to get what I wanted.  Malsqueek mentions that he needs it to compete with the AI in the beginning, I realized I do the same thing, but I never thought of it as cheese. I don't think the problem is the strategy, to me it makes sense.

You wouldn't start taxing the first members of your civilization building their own huts and harvesting their own resources for...well essentially the right to work for themselves. No, but when you start conscripting and start establishing services that everyone benefits from they need to help with the upkeep.  So "no taxes, all building" I think is a perfectly understandable strategy...at least this is how it makes sense to me.

The problem:  As I see it, the implementation might be wrong, or maybe it's fine.  There are two abilities I think (if I remember) that would benefit from taxing the crap out of their citizens instead of building.  Being able to hire heroes at 1/2 cost and being able to quick-build from day 0.  Now I might be remembering wrong (I'll check when I'm home) but that's not the point...there might be abilities on the future that could tip the scales in usefulness of a high tax in the beginning (mods or changes in the original game).  If you can't make use of the cash, which by default I assume most civilizations cannot, then I think 0 tax in the beginning is not in any way a cheese strategy.

BUT, I think new players will miss this and it may cause frustration.  Other games don't typically let you get right in and tax or not tax.  There is a progression into establishing control of your economy and production.  So a new player can look at the future and say I need more cash or I need more research and plan accordingly (for better or worse).  The thing is I'm betting the tax selection is a very strong tool that is overlooked and quite frankly not understood.  Now a complete understanding isn't necessary, but I do think something is missing from it's presentation in some way to help.  I think one reason it can be though of as cheese is that it starts at 'normal' so the idea is 'normal' is what it should be at in the beginning and most of the game.  I think starting it at zero would remove this preconception...but then there would be the problem of new players getting severely held back when they aren't sure when a good time to normalize is.

To me, it's not a big deal.  I've played enough maps that I have an idea of my strategy, but for a newer player I think the tax bar needs to be addressed.  I just not sure how. Plus who knows what the future of cities will bring...so it may be a moot point in the future.

Looking for other's ideas on if there is some cheese here, or if not how newbs can get a better handle on it. (I still get confused on the arrow tooltips)

17,308 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

It should default to zero tax. It always annoys me when I realize I have hit turn a few times without setting zero tax.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

New players are going to accept the defaults - whatever they happen to be - and should be rewarded with a challenging but enjoyable game. If the only way to succeed is mimicking the AI strategy, the developers have work to do.

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I like that lowering your taxes to zero and using all your initial mana income on city buff spells is A strategy.

 

I quite dislike that the above strategy is a so much better plan than any other path that it is essentially not a choice. I mean, turning your taxes to zero on turn one get you a ~23% BONUS (essentially) to both research and production at the expense of 0.4 gold a turn, and that compounds with the enchant spells that give you +2 bonuses compounded with the unrest reduction bonus.

 

Get a champion with Merchant 1 (or 2, or 3) at first level and you can stretch this bonus out for WELL into the early game.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes, the problem is not that we want to do it, but that the other choices are SO much worse.

Tax rates and the matching unrest is something that really needs attention, so that there is a benefit to each tax rate, and thus a meaningful choice between them.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I think it's a perfectly good strategy, and I don't really think there needs to be any alternative.  The AI just needs to learn to do it as well, and, as someone mentioned, taxes should default to none so new players don't get the penalty to unrest.

There are a decent number of alternate strategies in the beginning of the game based on things like starting location, faction, and sovereign stats, the decision to tax or not isn't really a big one.  What would a viable alternative be?  Tax the populace to get money to rush things?  There's not enough money in the city yet.

I certainly wouldn't object to an overhaul of the tax system so there's more of a benefit, but I think that different tax levels being appropriate for different game periods is ok also.  None at the start.  Low once you build a prison or some town halls.  Normal when you need money for something.  High + when you're absolutely desperate. 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

I play on Ridiculous, and recently I discovered Insane. I NEVER let unrest in home cities get above 2-3%.  Saying that it's cheese is meaningless to me.  It is the only way to be competitive, and it makes perfect sense from a 'fluff' perspective.  What, my sovereign is going to oppress his power base while he's a hundred miles away?

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

The tax rises are massively punishing on production and research so it makes sense to drop tax to zero until you have things like gallows and bless city - I don't think much of the currtent tax system and an looking forward to the changes they will make in beta 4

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

The strategy for me is deciding when I can increase taxes. More taxes means more armies. Sometimes I switch back to None when I really want a new technology or once I get Merchantcross Bazaar. I think the tax system could be a little more generous, but zero taxes should be an option. 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Synopsis: The gildar must flow. Gildar is distributed far to scarcely by tax given how expensive stuff is (wages for heroes, troops, costs for heroic equip, rush costs ect.)

Fully acknowledged!

Multiply the income by taxes times 10 at the start (not joking here) might make for a way better balance and more interesting choices with the slider from start to finish (maybe 5 times as much as currently is enough but lower doesn't seem well). Maybe shallow up the progression a bit (still guildar-gains in 3-digits area should be reasonably attainable mid- endgame at normal tax which aint. Compare to mana where mid 2-digit income per turn is achievable and costs for spells are comparatively far less. The balance for Mana-income seems at a good spot right now. Contrast to gildar)

So far other methods of cheesingly acquiring Guildar (by selling tech knowledge which accumulates in value partly faster than straight guildar even at normal, rushing already build nodes which connect to a city or pioneers / simmilar units after 2 turns of accumulating production) or merchant champs(multiple) are neccessary to gain sufficient guildar to actually buy stuff or sustain a sizable army are neccessary. That needn't be.



There is a way around the unrest problem: Gallows and simmilar buildings. After testing i now find those buildings by far the best ones (especially since the unrest penalty . Especially the Onyx-Throne. I find that Level 5 building nearly mandatory to aquire reasonable slider-levels at mid-endgame ~Turn 250)

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Multiplying the gildar seems a little "tacked on".  And I'm not really sure what the use of it is.  I don't really have problems with cash till later when I have tech to actually buy stuff, like equipment and heroes.

To me, right now gildar isn't a problem whatsoever, in fact pretty well balanced.  If I NEED gold...it hurts a bit.  If I plan ahead and watch my funds, just tweeking the tax rate a little is more comfortable.

I don't really 'get' unrest yet.  Haven't paid attention to it.  I guess it's more like Sins OSE unrest... for the longest time I thought unrest was global and the tax rate was telling me what it was...and I never saw improvements.  Then when I actually built improvements I saw 'in city' and figured it out...although finding the number breakdown wasn't as slick as I'd like.  Tough to judge since apparently cities are getting worked over next.

 Edit: problem with a lot of these features is...there really is a lot going on in the background that can be missed.  This game is deceptively complex in areas, but most are out in the open (if you know where to look and bother to pay attention).  I like the tax rate as it is, hence my OP question.  And I think the different opinions are quite interesting (glad I asked).  I just felt that I know I kind of ignored it since it just smells of something that can bite you in the ass if you use it wrong more than other features.  Mainly due to the possible long term effects.

As of right now spells, taxing, research and buildings all seem to be not 100% streamlined...as if they're being tested (eh durr) and economy...is something I am not good at.  Lol if you look at any of my Sins graphs there are extremely spikey.  At times it seems like I have 4million credits and can unlock every research item and buy a full fleet....then suddenly I have 100 credits...what the heck did I even buy?  So again, thanks for the different perspectives.  I'm surprised how many say start at zero tax.  As much as it 'feels' wrong, I think this might not be a bad thing.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree that the current implementation is clunky. One different way of implementing tax that might be more obvious is to tie it to buildings, like a "tax office - generates 1 gildar for every 10 citizens, +20% unrest". Would achieve basically the same thing as the slider but might feel less "tacked on".

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

I have to agree that the current system isn't a real choice.  Krax can do it the entire game, and they should be the ones most likely to tax the most RP-wise.