Elemental 1.2 still equals bland

from Elemental Forums

I've stayed away from Elemental now for a few months to try and re-look at it objectively and from a fresh perspective. Unfortunately, the game is still 'plain salted' rather than 'spicy mexican'. That is, its game-play is still bland - and with major holes in its game-play mechanics and balance. On the other-hand there have been UI and improvements to stability which make it at least not the chore to play it was at release.

When I start a game it still doesn't matter who my neighbours are. They are all the same dull grey races from release with no discerning characteristics between them. The only real difference I can see between kingdom and empire races is that basically they change the colour of the map and their buildings are called different names. Other than that there is still not a real lot of difference. They all churn out the same sort of troops and follow the same sort of path. One of the great things I was expecting from Elemental was that the races would have individual personality and AI. I guess I was expecting more from the people who made Gal Civ in this regard.

Magic and Technology are still wildly unbalanced in terms of their game mechanics. The steps between tech levels are DRAMATIC! Which means that troops from one level to another will be superseded. Tech advances should be tweaks - not sledge-hammers. Magic on the other hand is much much better but when looked at from the aspect of 'levelling' game mechanics - they really aren't balanced with reference to each other. So what do you build in your cities? I build about 10 studies to every temple because tech is how you win the game. This is so so wrong for a game like Elemental. Tech should be subtle. And it should be controlled through different buildings rather than all lumped under 'study'. This game mechanic in Elemental is so broken it isn't funny. Each advance in tech should give 5% increase in advances rather than the current 90% leaps.

Age of Wonders got these aspects so right yet Elemental is still miles off being the great game it should be. I haven't given up on Elemental yet but I am very worried about what Fallen Enchantress will bring. I really wish Stardock had fixed Elemental properly before using the game to model another game.

I know this is a negative post, but I am very disappointed in the gap between Elemental's potential and its reality. I don't hate the game - but it doesn't inspire or capture the imagination.

Please, someone convince me I'm missing something. I really want this game to be great. But for me right now it is just ho-hum.

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9,726 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, I largely agree to an extent about your opinion about Elemental. It's basically an experiment that was not successful - and even the devs admit that, which is very rare. They promised free FE for early Elemental adopters, and this is very fair, and also extremely rare - does CA offers free Shogun 2 after the buggy disaster that was Empire? Not a chance. Failed projects do happen, but at least Stardock does not lie like most other companies.

As for FE goes, talented designers have been invited to spice up the game design. Derek Paxton works on the project - just play his Fall from Heaven 2 mod for Civ4 and you will see that bar Dominions3 maybe, you will hardly find a game with more diversity and richer lore. So that's good enough for me - not a guarantee of success, but the chances are very good.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

still bland... and yet you don't seem to follow what has been said by the developers.

1.3 will be when new stuff will be added, when new content is added.

1.2 was major bug fixing and extermination of bugs and glitches.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting EternalRequiem, reply 2
still bland... and yet you don't seem to follow what has been said by the developers.

1.3 will be when new stuff will be added, when new content is added.

1.2 was major bug fixing and extermination of bugs and glitches.

How does that not line up with what he said? Today, it's still bland. It might not be, later (but probably still will be).

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

1.3 will still be bland, it's just minor mechanic fixes no real content revisions.

I seem to recall Frogboy saying this blandness was "by design", and that it was a mistake, and that they would have a different approach in FE which is more content-driven.

I for one agree with the op, the world is literally empty between the swathes of cities. Okay, not empty, because there are forests (that don't do anything once they're in your zone of control) and world resources.

What about monster camps spawning in your territory? What about meteors falling, devastating the surrounding area? What about floods, what about draughts? What about sunken temples rising from the depths, releasing terror on the world? What about unexplained fires, lightning storms, what about acid rain, exploding magic shards, roaming champions seeking your aid/demise, unholy statues spreading corruption through the lands, unstoppable gods that walk the land and conquer all only to disappear leaving a new faction behind, plagues, whirlwinds, forests growing and dying, volcanoes erupting and the mountains shifting, singing trees, weeping stones, mazes, revolution, floating islands, explorable dungeons, once-in-a-game units like battlewagons, horrible deadly traps, the fae breaking through, population mutations, the long dance and the old dark, prisons sealing part of the world away for a year, bad moons rising, termites eating your cities, illusions, mad scientists, living lands, shadows escaping from their owners, artifacts that control you, priests granting blessings walking across the land, slavers, shapeshifters, a phoenix that cannot die, demon possessions, forests of crystal/glass, leeches sticking to your guys as they walk through swamps, DEMON leeches, disease (okay I said plague already), magnetism making armor-wearing units unable to move/leave, dead heroes resurrected, arena fights between champions, non-hostile creatures like camels and horses roaming the land, walls of ice disrupting your roads, a fountain of youth, backpacks that eat your items and purses that eat your gold, ghost ships sailing the oceans, extradimensional creatures that require things to leave, time paradoxes, language issues between nations, fogs swallowing all who enter. How about just some plain old fantasy?

The world is neither alive nor interesting. Why do I have to walk on a bloody quest tile to "make something happen"? How about things happen to ME for a change, instead of me happening to other people. Why not remove the "okay, let's do this" button and replace it with "if you don't do it, we'll take your city and your kid and your magic sword and also we will take your dreams and your hair and five years of your life".

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I think the problem might have originated from the game engine - it was originally developed for Galciv2, which takes place in vast, empty outer space. Everyone expects outer space to be bland (and uniform, and lifeless), while in case of a fantasy landscape, it's a problem.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kamamura_CZ, reply 5
I think the problem might have originated from the game engine - it was originally developed for Galciv2, which takes place in vast, empty outer space. Everyone expects outer space to be bland (and uniform, and lifeless), while in case of a fantasy landscape, it's a problem.

No it didn't. This is a new engine developed for Elemental.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Couldn't agree more with the OP.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

The new engine which was being made at the same time as the game which was meant to use that new engine. ;-)

Best regards,
Steven.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top


 One of the great things I was expecting from Elemental was that the races would have individual personality and AI. I guess I was expecting more from the people who made Gal Civ in this regard.

 

While I agree with you, the world is bland, I also made the above assumption. But look at GalCiv2. The races didn't really get unique from each other until Twilight. 

 

Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 4


What about monster camps spawning in your territory? What about meteors falling, devastating the surrounding area? What about floods, what about draughts? What about sunken temples rising from the depths, releasing terror on the world? What about unexplained fires, lightning storms, what about acid rain, exploding magic shards, roaming champions seeking your aid/demise, unholy statues spreading corruption through the lands, unstoppable gods that walk the land and conquer all only to disappear leaving a new faction behind, plagues, whirlwinds, forests growing and dying, volcanoes erupting and the mountains shifting, singing trees, weeping stones, mazes, revolution, floating islands, explorable dungeons, once-in-a-game units like battlewagons, horrible deadly traps, the fae breaking through, population mutations, the long dance and the old dark, prisons sealing part of the world away for a year, bad moons rising, termites eating your cities, illusions, mad scientists, living lands, shadows escaping from their owners, artifacts that control you, priests granting blessings walking across the land, slavers, shapeshifters, a phoenix that cannot die, demon possessions, forests of crystal/glass, leeches sticking to your guys as they walk through swamps, DEMON leeches, disease (okay I said plague already), magnetism making armor-wearing units unable to move/leave, dead heroes resurrected, arena fights between champions, non-hostile creatures like camels and horses roaming the land, walls of ice disrupting your roads, a fountain of youth, backpacks that eat your items and purses that eat your gold, ghost ships sailing the oceans, extradimensional creatures that require things to leave, time paradoxes, language issues between nations, fogs swallowing all who enter. How about just some plain old fantasy?
.

 

These ideas are really, REALLY good!

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

races are becoming more unique with the mod impinc is working on now ;)

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kapeman, reply 10


These ideas are really, REALLY good!

Not really, they're just generic churn, and elemental has LESS than that. In comparison with nearly nothing, everything will look good.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

But FE is really a whole new game, so improving a problem in FE doesn't fix the problem in WoM.  I'd still like to see WoM fixed, not just forgotten for FE.

 

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 4
I seem to recall Frogboy saying this blandness was "by design", and that it was a mistake, and that they would have a different approach in FE which is more content-driven.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

It is what it is, they have been consistent in saying they'll keep E:Wom on its current design path for those that like it like that, and provide a new experience in FE. If you are/were expecting major content revisions beyond 1.1 then you were just making it up in your head, in my opinion.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

that's too bad, because a problem like bland AI races is totally fixable, and would dramatically change the game for the better.

 

 

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

It's also a very large amount of work, and not worth doing for what is now an old game.

At some point people need to accept that WoM is what it is, and trying to freeze time to avoid the new game while also saying "dump a ton of resources into this one" is just not realistic.

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 16
It's also a very large amount of work, and not worth doing for what is now an old game.

At some point people need to accept that WoM is what it is, and trying to freeze time to avoid the new game while also saying "dump a ton of resources into this one" is just not realistic.

 

I don't agree with that.  Nothing is etched in stone, especially in a Stardock game.  It can definitely be improved, and I'm sure SD isn't afraid of work.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

It's not like any improvement in WoM isn't relatively easily transferable to FE.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting charon2112, reply 17

I don't agree with that.  Nothing is etched in stone, especially in a Stardock game.  It can definitely be improved, and I'm sure SD isn't afraid of work.

Welcome to business reality, then. They also need to make some money on this stuff to continue developing it, and that's not going to happen with WoM now. It is what it is. FE means a chance to start fresh, and a new set of reviews. If those go better it'll help expand the reach of the game beyond people who are getting it free, which are people who a sub 60 game like WoM aren't going to get to.

It's been almost a year, and it's still not a very fun game. SD's accepted it and moved on to doing a better job on the next one. It's time for the community to follow suit.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 19

Quoting charon2112, reply 17
I don't agree with that.  Nothing is etched in stone, especially in a Stardock game.  It can definitely be improved, and I'm sure SD isn't afraid of work.

Welcome to business reality, then. They also need to make some money on this stuff to continue developing it, and that's not going to happen with WoM now. It is what it is. FE means a chance to start fresh, and a new set of reviews. If those go better it'll help expand the reach of the game beyond people who are getting it free, which are people who a sub 60 game like WoM aren't going to get to.

It's been almost a year, and it's still not a very fun game. SD's accepted it and moved on to doing a better job on the next one. It's time for the community to follow suit.

 

I don't believe they made a lot of money on Galciv 2 at first either, but they continued--and still continue--to improve that game, and now it's a classic.  WoM could be that way too, if they continue to work on it...  

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

imho i think stardock should just focus on FE completely and turn it into something they can accually be proud of. as for EWOM they should just release the source code/scripts to the public so the modding community can transform any and all aspects of the game and see wat can really come of it.