How I beat 6 ridiculous AI with screenshots to prove it [wip]

The first opponent I found was Altar.  He was doing absolutely nothing.  Heavenfall and I have reported this before and as luck would have it, there were two ridiculous AIs that never grew their cities past level 1.  They couldn't remember how to build a hut.  Since Altar was going to be a cakewalk, I decide to find someone else to whoop up on.

Here's the save file so you can look into why the AI is stuck on city level 1.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9317559/Stupid%20AI%20Exhibit%202.EleSav

Recommendations for improving the AI

1.  Don't let the AI forget how to build a hut.

 

Recommendations for improving the AI

2.  Protect the pioneers ... I used one of my champions to follow this pioneer around just waiting for him to build a settlement so I could take it.  That would have been harder to do had he been protected.  By the way, several of the pioneers I followed in this way, just went around in circles passing up several good locations.  I thought maybe there was some AI written telling it not to plop down a city if it were being followed; however, eventually it would plop down a city for me to takeover.

3.  Have the sovereign get the goodie huts.  The 1.19 patch notes said something about having the AI be more careful/protective with their sovereigns.  As a result, I never saw a single sovereign outside a city this whole game.  That is a mistake.  Aside from the obvious benefits of getting goodie huts (i.e. materials, gildar, etc.), it keeps me from getting them!

 

So I decided Umber would be my first victim.  Notice I'm also reporting a bug in this video.

Recommendations for improving the AI

4.  The tactical AI should not be targeting a single unit because all I have to do is run that single unit around in circles while the rest of my armies pounce.  In addition, the tactical AI should be ganging up on single units not spreading their attack across multiple units.  Take advantage of the limited number of counterattacks that a defender has.

 

Next I decided to put Altar out of their misery on my way to Resoln.  Remember their size 1 city?  It hadn't changed.  It's gone now.  At leaset, Resoln had built some troops.  Unfortunately, they were all staff weapon / no armor troops.  Give them an "A" for quantity, but an "F" for quality. 

 

Capitar would be my next victim.  They have started making troops with a war staff, but I now have an archer in my little band and the Level 4 spell firestorm.

 

 

By the time I found Kraxis, they had a bunch of cities and a city with a titan and guardian in it.  They put up a pretty good fight. but I dropped 6 or so firestorms on them to wipe them out.  I'll upload the video in just a bit.

 

And finally, I found Magmar doing nothing.  Here's my last save before winning if you want to check things out.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9317559/Almost%20the%20End.EleSav

 

 

 

34,120 views 32 replies
Reply #1 Top

This in v1.19? Something is definitely broken there.

Reply #2 Top

Hi Brad, yes it's 1.19.  Stay tuned...more to come!  :-)

Reply #3 Top

I found the problem. Thanks to the user who sent me some saved games (1.elesav and 2.elesav).  v1.19 breaks the XML tagging. Frankly, it's amazing that the AI did as well as it did in v1.19 because it was operating on its purely non-data driven part (I.e. learning a generic game).

They're looking into it.

Reply #4 Top

Sweet!  I'm glad you found it.  I posted two saved games above, but they didn't hyperlink properly for some reason.  Anyway, good luck with the AI!  I was thinking the 1.19 AI had taken a step backwards from 1.11, but I didn't want to say that and piss anybody off.

Reply #5 Top

It's definitely okay to say that. I mean heck, they weren't building anything. Clearly, something's wrong.  But it goes to show how subtle this stuff can be sometimes.

The specific in your screenshot is this:

The AI ran out of population and didn't know what to do. The tags in XML tell the AI that it needs housing in that condition but without those tags, it just shrugged and said "I guess I'm done". 

Reply #6 Top

Lol. I must have missed this problem because every faction for me gets a refugee camp. Is this the only thing the tags would affect or are there more subtle issues I am just not noticing?

Reply #7 Top

BTW, you're running Windows XP? Come on man! It's 2011! :)

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 7
BTW, you're running Windows XP? Come on man! It's 2011!

Funny you should mention that... My real computer is a 64-bit Windows 7 machine (i7, 8GB mem, SSD, etc.), but my wife is into photography now and she was complaining about how long it was taking her to work on pictures in PhotoShop using the Windows XP machine so guess who has the Windows 7 machine now?  :annoyed:

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
I found the problem. Thanks to the user who sent me some saved games (1.elesav and 2.elesav).  v1.19 breaks the XML tagging. Frankly, it's amazing that the AI did as well as it did in v1.19 because it was operating on its purely non-data driven part (I.e. learning a generic game).

They're looking into it.

Woot, that was me! 15 minutes of fame...

Reply #10 Top

Why upgrade to 7 when it uses twice the ram? So that you can add more ram? Higher clock speed? Overrated! Bigger video card? Who uses 19x12 anyway?

My machine is from 03-04 and still runs everything from Victoria 2 (processor hell) to Dragon Age (video card rapist), so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about personally, especially considering how simple, low maintenance and well designed XP is at this point. If you think you need a pimpwagon and you aren't a professional graphical designer or a compiler of massive programs, odds are you don't and an older (well maintained, carefully handled) machine will do you just fine.

 

Maybe in a few years I'll see a deal worth grabbing, but since so many of the games I like haven't bothered adding dual core support I'm having trouble considering it worth the hassle. Plus, I really hate the 7 interface. Work computers have it and its like, what the hell, I can't tell what or where anything is! Especially when it takes twice as long to do anything, since the damn things (despite quad cores, beefy cards and 8 gigs of ram) are slower than a fat kid running uphill. Possibly because of poor maintenance. And the buttons are _huuuuuge_.

 

 

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Aeon221, reply 10
Why upgrade to 7 when it uses twice the ram? So that you can add more ram? Higher clock speed? Overrated! Bigger video card? Who uses 19x12 anyway?

My machine is from 03-04 and still runs everything from Victoria 2 (processor hell) to Dragon Age (video card rapist), so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about personally, especially considering how simple, low maintenance and well designed XP is at this point. If you think you need a pimpwagon and you aren't a professional graphical designer or a compiler of massive programs, odds are you don't and an older (well maintained, carefully handled) machine will do you just fine.

 

Maybe in a few years I'll see a deal worth grabbing, but since so many of the games I like haven't bothered adding dual core support I'm having trouble considering it worth the hassle. Plus, I really hate the 7 interface. Work computers have it and its like, what the hell, I can't tell what or where anything is! Especially when it takes twice as long to do anything, since the damn things (despite quad cores, beefy cards and 8 gigs of ram) are slower than a fat kid running uphill. Possibly because of poor maintenance. And the buttons are _huuuuuge_.

 

 
Clearly you are on lots of drugs. Piles and Piles of drugs.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Aeon221, reply 10
Why upgrade to 7 when it uses twice the ram? So that you can add more ram? Higher clock speed? Overrated! Bigger video card? Who uses 19x12 anyway?

My machine is from 03-04 and still runs everything from Victoria 2 (processor hell) to Dragon Age (video card rapist), so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about personally, especially considering how simple, low maintenance and well designed XP is at this point. If you think you need a pimpwagon and you aren't a professional graphical designer or a compiler of massive programs, odds are you don't and an older (well maintained, carefully handled) machine will do you just fine.

 

Maybe in a few years I'll see a deal worth grabbing, but since so many of the games I like haven't bothered adding dual core support I'm having trouble considering it worth the hassle. Plus, I really hate the 7 interface. Work computers have it and its like, what the hell, I can't tell what or where anything is! Especially when it takes twice as long to do anything, since the damn things (despite quad cores, beefy cards and 8 gigs of ram) are slower than a fat kid running uphill. Possibly because of poor maintenance. And the buttons are _huuuuuge_.

 

 

 Seriously? I know some people think its hip to run XP for the rest of eternity, but you hate the Win 7 interface and think its slow? Windows 7 is not slow on quad cores with 8 gigs of ram, that's laughable. If you don't need a new machine or OS that's cool but your impression of Windows 7 is odd to me.

Reply #13 Top

I concur that the interface is terrible on Windows 7*, but if it is slow then the computer in question must have issues (possibly a background process that runs on every conputer where you work) that is making it that way.

I will likely deal with it as I have with the bad interface of Vista (and before that XP) and use the Widnows Standard look (thus making it look like Windows 98 for the most part... and then setting the color scheme to something the reduces eye strain).

Reply #14 Top

I was also playing a game where I encountered the same problem ( low level cities ), although they were capped under level three. I am playing against a mix of AI difficulties, ranging from ridiculous to hard.

My experience wasn't that bad, but I ran in to problems with the harder AI's having monumental piles of resources and essentially being unnegotiable. They would declare war within three turns of meeting them because the gap in military was percieved as so high. The only way to negate, I found, was to immediately marry in to their family and buy a peace treaty. This seemed to lock the relations level for a time. However, if I lacked the gildar to do this, I was doomed to have the faction declare on me.

Personally, I don't think this is too much of a problem. I chose to have a very difficult game, I shouldn't expect to use diplomacy to get out of it. However, I think the immediacy of the reaction is a bit extreme. Additionally, while I have no problem with a harder AI having access to more resources, I think having an opponent with 130,000 gildar and 10,000 materials and metal skews the AI's interpretation of value to the point where trading for materials is impossible.

Basically, I found that playing against the harder AI's forces the player into a 1v8 campaign; and renders large portions of the game irrelivent.

If the AI had taken advantage of the fact that the building cap had been lifted on cities, I shudder to think how many resources it could have amassed.

Ridiculous AI > Lots of resources > Perception of power > Diplomatic bullying > Constant warfare sans alliances.

I think how the AI uses those resources and views those resources should be segregated into two different values. The "Usable" value is what they have available to them when building units, buildings etc. The "Percieved" value is what tehy have available to them to negotiate, trade and conduct diplomatic portions of the game.

Second observation:

I found that the Ridiculous AI to be horrid at playing defense, and was easily intimidated and goaded into attacking where I wanted.

Three examples.

A) I was able to create an extremely mobile unit and proceeded to run him around inside the AI's territory destroying anything outside the city walls.

[ Sidenote - it should be impossible to recreate an upgrade on a node when that node is occupied by a unit from another faction. Additionally, there should be a cool-down time, or a clean-up period between destruction and recreation. ]

The AI only once attempted to counter this tactic, and did so with a unit with limited mobility. Poor choice of defense, poor choice of unit, poor use of available defenders to discourage me from my tactic.

B ) By using a mountain range I was able to create a large wall with my capital isolated beyond the mountains, with a guardian city outside the mountains. This guardian city was directly in front of the pass, and heavily defended. My capital city, in contrast, was left vacant. The AI would often send armies directly past my guardian city, attempting to make a run for the pass, to reach my capital. Strategically, my capital should have been placed "out of reach" by the AI due to its location. However, the AI was incapable of recognizing the relivence of the position of my guardian city.

As a result, I was able to slaughter several armies in the field without having to send a field army too far from my guardian city, thus risking point C from occuring when I did not wish it to happen.

C) I found that the AI would attempt to strike at my guardian city only when I would move my army stationed there outside the walls, which I would do occasionally to clean up the monsters in my rear. It was good for leveling the champions there, and they harrassed my caravans. However, once I recognized what the AI was doing, I was able to step my army outside the city along the road and simply wait for the attack to come. It would usually happen within two turns. Once the AI crossed the border I could use firebook spells to destroy it without further risk to my own army.

The AI, essentially, lacks the ability to use a scout type unit. The AI should be taught to use auxillary units to check positions before making a move to strike. I would not waste significant amounts of mana destroying one scout; I would attempt to counter it with my own mobile units. As a result, even though this smaller unit would be destroyed, the AI would be able to look past my vacated guardian city to see my army stationed immediately behind it.

In conjunction, the AI should be taught that an army standing within movement range of a city should be regarded as "apart" of that city's defense, unless their unit closer to that city, and could reach it first.

As a result of points B and C, I could count on the AI only attacking where I was ready to receive the attack: either in a mountain pass where I had plenty of time to counter the move, or walking directly up to a trap. Either way, it was rather silly. And that the AI refused to remember that I had ample spells to destroy armies piece meal didn't help either. An all out offensive might have drained me of mana, but by waiting multiple turns between strikes I was able to recoup mana easily, so I never felt threatened.

Note:

I think the changes made in 1.19 to eliminate the tile cap from cities is stupid. It ruins the value of an individual city, eliminates the need for city specialization and destroys the purpose of having some upgrades occupying four tiles vs. one. Those upgrades which take up space should be considered costly, and not something that can be built endlessly. I should not be able to put every L5 upgrade and world wonder on one city ... I should be forced to pick which one I want, or squander them by slapping them on a city that could not maximize their potential.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting celev, reply 14
Note:

I think the changes made in 1.19 to eliminate the tile cap from cities is stupid. It ruins the value of an individual city, eliminates the need for city specialization and destroys the purpose of having some upgrades occupying four tiles vs. one. Those upgrades which take up space should be considered costly, and not something that can be built endlessly. I should not be able to put every L5 upgrade and world wonder on one city ... I should be forced to pick which one I want, or squander them by slapping them on a city that could not maximize their potential.

I quite like it as a concept, a single city is limited to produce one building and one unit at a time, so there is value to multiple cities, however you have to build the infrastructure for each.

Reply #16 Top

Building the infrastructure for each of the cities, or being unable to, should seperate someone who is able to play at a harder difficulty level and a lower difficulty level.

Understanding the concepts of building a city, when contrasted against understanding the concepts of building an empire, should be one of the key lessons which divide the casually successful and the truly successful in this style of strategy game.

By eliminating the tile cap the developers are, in my opinion, saying that learning how to take the core concepts of the game to their logical end is irrelivent in the overall success of the game.

This is moronic, to me. I don't understand why such a principle would be eliminated. It's a core element found in many strategy games, and should not be foreign to players; nor is it a concept that is especially difficult to master conceptually.

Likewise, I fail to see why an AI was programed without the ability to scout, overwhelm or counter such simple strategies as the raiding party.

What happened?

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Aeon221, reply 10
Why upgrade to 7 when it uses twice the ram? So that you can add more ram? Higher clock speed? Overrated! Bigger video card? Who uses 19x12 anyway?

My machine is from 03-04 and still runs everything from Victoria 2 (processor hell) to Dragon Age (video card rapist), so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about personally, especially considering how simple, low maintenance and well designed XP is at this point. If you think you need a pimpwagon and you aren't a professional graphical designer or a compiler of massive programs, odds are you don't and an older (well maintained, carefully handled) machine will do you just fine.

 

Maybe in a few years I'll see a deal worth grabbing, but since so many of the games I like haven't bothered adding dual core support I'm having trouble considering it worth the hassle. Plus, I really hate the 7 interface. Work computers have it and its like, what the hell, I can't tell what or where anything is! Especially when it takes twice as long to do anything, since the damn things (despite quad cores, beefy cards and 8 gigs of ram) are slower than a fat kid running uphill. Possibly because of poor maintenance. And the buttons are _huuuuuge_.

 

 
Play Crysis, and send me pictures of the solid-liquid phase transition of your GPU.

 

And I'm just taking an extreme example here, but Dawn of War 2 (a well-optimized game that runs on decent hardware with everything at max) or Batman Arkham Asylum will also send your PC to Silicon hell.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting Werewindlefr, reply 17

Play Crysis, and send me pictures of the solid-liquid phase transition of your GPU.
 

And I'm just taking an extreme example here, but Dawn of War 2 (a well-optimized game that runs on decent hardware with everything at max) or Batman Arkham Asylum will also send your PC to Silicon hell.

I'm with Aeon on this one - when I have to upgrade, sure I'll get windows 7 on the new pc, but for the time being my vintage '06 xp machine runs any game I actually want to play on the highest graphics it has. Up until now that hasn't included Crysis (no desire to play it), but your post made me wonder, so I downloaded the demo. On "high" graphics with 8x AA it runs at about 20 fps, dipping to 15 when several guys are trying to kill me and succeeding - once it hit 6 but I was already dead at that point (whatever that graphical effect you get covering the screen when you're close to death, the blood spatter or whatever, really kills fps, but it hardly matters at that point) - so not ideal, but enough that there's no noticeable lag during actual play.

The water is quite pretty - nicely detailed shadows too, come to think of it. The blur of peripheral vision, or objects a different distance than what you're "focusing" on, is a subtle but very very cool effect - I admit I spent a minute just shifting aim from close up palm trees to distant ones and going "oooh." The faces fall into the uncanny valley for me; they're still not quite human especially when they try to animate speech, and it puts me off more than obviously artificial ones. But anyway.. if a notorious resource hog of a game that I don't want to play looks good (admittedly not the highest possible settings, but good) and runs smoothly on an xp machine from 5 years ago*, why do I need windows 7?

If you're curious, this pc is a core 2 duo 2.4ghz, 2GB RAM, radeon 3870 512MB. I don't mean to brag - I know there are far better pcs out there, even 5 years ago this one wasn't top of the line - my point is, where are the games that require such a pc? Someday I'll have to upgrade, but honestly, I've yet to run into the game that made me feel like an upgrade would give me anything but the sheer geeky joy of having bigger numbers to brag about (which is a worthy goal in itself, but lacking a lot of spare cash to throw around, one must be practical).

*I lied, I upgraded the video card a mere 3 years ago. Not because there was any need to, but due to the original one failing.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Werewindlefr, reply 17

Play Crysis, and send me pictures of the solid-liquid phase transition of your GPU.
 

And I'm just taking an extreme example here, but Dawn of War 2 (a well-optimized game that runs on decent hardware with everything at max) or Batman Arkham Asylum will also send your PC to Silicon hell.

I'm running XP on hardware that is around 4 - 2 years old. I can play Crysis at high detail at 1920 * 1200 just fine. I own DoW 2 and get 60+ fps. Don't have Batman. Point is, your comment is <english accent>s-t-u-p-i-d</english accent>.

 

I'll be getting Windows 7 when I have the time and money to build a powerful enough computer so that the end result is a more responsive experience than what I have now.

Reply #20 Top

Is this fix with new 1.19a patch?

Reply #21 Top

I have XP 32 bits too, core 2 duo 8600 and Geforce 8800 GTS. Run game correctly. But I loved to have "big PC" but financially I'm not ready for the "2K" upgrade :). Oh, and about 4 gig rams.

Reply #22 Top

I'm not saying those of you with Windows XP are bad people. But I'm not saying you aren't either. ;)

 

Yes, 1.19a fixes the AI bug.

Reply #23 Top

I don't know what all this upgrading is about, I play this game on my TI-85 calculator I got in high school and it runs fine!

Reply #24 Top

Could be that I don't have $100 to shell out to Microsoft every time they decided to create a new OS.  Would you rather I bought their new OS, or a couple of your games?  :p

Reply #25 Top

Well I have windows vista and am still wondering how that company justifies outdating a product so quickly that costs so much money. Did they break some kind of record or something? I should get the update to 7 for free IMO. Or at least better update support, which would cost them more than just handing over the Win7 I think.

Here is my OS history:

Win95==>Millenium Edition===>Vista Premium.

So Win95 is the best OS ever according to my personal experience.