I Tried Very Hard to Like This Game

Hi guys, sorry if this post is going to sound like a rant, but I am really very frustrated with this game. Hopefully from my observation something positive will come up for the developers.

First of all, we know what is good in this game: personalization, the general concept of mixing a wargame a RPG and a city developing game.

But the result so far is still very bad. While I feel we have passed the stage where the numebr of bugs was beyond ridiculous, I feel we are now in the phase where all the weaknesses of the gameplay start to surface.

he first 100 turns of the gamealways feel hopelessly boring. Players need monsters to kill and things to do that are at their size.

The poor AI still gets swallowed by players, the fact that the AI has units with a value of defense 37, while my units only have about 10 at the most, makes the computer invincible, while it is still quite dumb. THAT IS NOT FUN: it only means we cannot attack the AI, in fact we can do nothing at all and the game is incredibly boring.

The map is so huge, the pace is terribly slow mostly because units move so slowly that even I thank the presence of teleport. Oh My God, teleport is the only way to make something happen. Of course the game becomes an arcade and the poor AI that has been waiting for my cities to be empty still manages to get its leaders killed when I jump around with the only half decent stack that I managed to put together. The only enemy leader I managed to kill so far was by teleporting around.

What is particularly annoying in this version of the game (1.11) is that I don' feel at all that I am like the other players. They manage to make armies,with a monumental number of hitpoints and huge defense skills, while I can only rely on the few units I managed to get while choosing to spawn random defenders for my cities. Obviously the other main difference is that I jumpity jump around the map with teleport, while the AI is carefully avoiding that obviously powerful tactics, because that would make even more obvious how teleport is an exploit impossible to prevent for the enemy. Players don't complain so much when they use exploits, but if the AI was doing it ... OMG!!!

This pretty much sums up why I am not having fun at all with this game, the most obvious fix that I can suggest would be to always give the players things to do ALWAYS and give them things to do that are useful (make decent money) and give them things to do that are doable at the level of the player (ruins to enter and interesting battles to fight each turn).

My other suggestion would be find a way to scrap teleport, by making units faster, because as things are now teleport is the only way to get things going. I suggest everybody to play Age of Wonders Shadow Magic, without teleport in order to have a feeling of what the right pace for games like this should be.

Sorry if I am not happy at the moment, hopefully yo'll get something out of this complaint.

 

cheers

BK.

15,444 views 22 replies
Reply #1 Top

I dont think I agree with a lot of this.  But I'm kind of tired, and don't feel like explaining.

Reply #2 Top

IMO to sum it up. Your major problems seem to be with the way your setting up the game and researching techs. If the AI has way more def.. its because they researched armor techs and you didn't. If the map is too big.. play on a smaller map, if there's no creatures to kill pump up the map difficulty , if you want to explore more ruins work on adventure tech etc.

I will agree the game has issues overall holding my interest.. but I can't really agree on your reasons.

 

Reply #3 Top

Yeah, I can't really agree with most of your post.  I haven't been playing long, but even on easy the game is a challenge for me & there always seems to be more to do than I have units to do it with.

Reply #4 Top

It sounds to me like the gameplay is not going in the direction you expect it to and your floundering in the learning curve of how to get what you want out of the tech trees.

I am not saying the game is without flaws.

try researching warfare equipment line for weapons and armour then branch out into group tech. Learn equipment first, then some other tech type (diplomacy civics adventure or magic depending on what kind of game you want to play - meaning magic heavy or conquest heavy, it is sandbox play after all you need a goal to set for yourself)

then go back to warfare - learn warfare tech, then something else. keep following that pattern. get production tech if you find yourself low on material and build the great mill in a town with at least 4 workshops in it.

search around find some metal and then go on a rampage and kill kill kill. spawn some monsters through adventure tech if you get bored. spawn goodie and quest huts to give your heroes something to do - the quests can give you great opportunities to strengthen your heroes.

 

Reply #5 Top

Face it fro the most part this game. (this genre for that matter) revolves around teching as hard and fast as you can alot of the times. The tech advantage in turn based games is usually one of the biggest edges you can get.

Reply #6 Top

Try playing a smaller map and up the speed of the game. That might give you the balance that you are looking for. On another note, I was consitently playing medium map, max players, custom charisma sov, ridiculous across the board, and had winning nailed down. I just started a new game on a large map with a slow tech speed and am finding it more challenging. Waiting to research the first level of Warfare for spears and padded armor while monsters spawn all over the place made it a hectic and dangerous early game. I'm nearing mid-game and am at war with both Altar and Kraxis - I'm having to apply myself which is refreshing. The large map leaves more room for monster spawns outside ZOC's and such.

Anyway, try messing with the settings. You might be surprised.

Reply #7 Top

I'm in the same boat as the OP.  I am constantly taken over by armies with twice as many soldiers than me, with twice the attack and defense that I do.  I have been spamming war tech like mad, but still don't seem to be fast enough.  What should I do?

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Gammit10, reply 7
I'm in the same boat as the OP.  I am constantly taken over by armies with twice as many soldiers than me, with twice the attack and defense that I do.  I have been spamming war tech like mad, but still don't seem to be fast enough.  What should I do?

Lower difficulty a setting if not already done so. Consider being agressive early game and eliminating an enemy faction or two to gobble up their starting capital locations. First thing researched should be equipment in Warfare tree. Gear your sov and Janusk, design a unit with oak spear and padded cuirass. Spam those units, make a stack, and go to war. If you take one or two enemy capitals you should be competitive through rest of game.

Reply #9 Top

I am not sure when the OP means the units move to slow. For me, I wish there was a slider to speed up the movement and or animation. So when I click my unit to move here, it zooms there, not just waddle there. Maybe that is what he means it's slow and boring.

 

Reply #10 Top

Are you playing as empire or as the other general mob.  Empire depends more on summoning, portals and single powerful units and expensive units.  I find their general units weaker than the other branch (whose name I forgot).  I had similar problems as you when playign emprie and I had to stop researching warfare and go more towards the adventure/lore and oder allies that were expensive but very powerful.

Reply #11 Top

What the OP describes isn't that uncommon with a slow start.  Slow starts, however, are entirely avoidable.

There's a simple chain of reasoning that might help those having trouble with the AI out-teching them.  Research requires studies/archivists.  Studies/archivists require gold maintenance and construction time.  The most reliable source of gold is taxes from high population (which requires food), and the only way to get extra construction time for most of the game is by building additional cities for extra build queues.  Basically, grab a level or two of armor, equip a couple units, and just expand like mad while prioritizing farm locations.  Spam studies/archivists when you're not building huts/hovels (or the occasional workshop/labor pit for materials production).  Tech outside war occasionally for housing and economic upgrades.

The stronger your fundamental economy is, the stronger your research machine gets.  Expand, expand, expand - both in breadth and density!  Remember that troops are an investment for the present, while expansion is an investment for the future.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Corbeaubm, reply 11
What the OP describes isn't that uncommon with a slow start.  Slow starts, however, are entirely avoidable.

There's a simple chain of reasoning that might help those having trouble with the AI out-teching them.  Research requires studies/archivists.  Studies/archivists require gold maintenance and construction time.  The most reliable source of gold is taxes from high population (which requires food), and the only way to get extra construction time for most of the game is by building additional cities for extra build queues.  Basically, grab a level or two of armor, equip a couple units, and just expand like mad while prioritizing farm locations.  Spam studies/archivists when you're not building huts/hovels (or the occasional workshop/labor pit for materials production).  Tech outside war occasionally for housing and economic upgrades.

The stronger your fundamental economy is, the stronger your research machine gets.  Expand, expand, expand - both in breadth and density!  Remember that troops are an investment for the present, while expansion is an investment for the future.

 

While this is a good idea in moderation, over expanding too early also would have consequences as they put in that prestige negative for # of cities. Slowing their growth in population across the board.

 

Reply #13 Top

Nope, you want to spam and spam hard.  If you're relying on base prestige, you're doin' it wrong - use CHA heroes and buildings that add prestige.  And remember that population growth only matters for your hub city.

Reply #14 Top

this post is going to sound like a rant

You got that right.

Reply #15 Top

After three games like that, which I had to stop because boredom took over (You guys say to spam units and cities? What the hack can I spam if I have no money?) I finally managed to start a game that is a little more active (lowered the difficulty level and probably just got lucky). The enemy still has lot more units than me, and they are way too powerful, 'lucky' I can teleport around my only decent stack (I hate that) , otherwise I'd be dead every turn.

So now I have to teleport, teleport and teleport if I want to manage to survive.

Lucky also that the AI is unable to teleport (very basic obvious strategy that would certainly make it win) and lucky that it has a million units but is unable to use them properly. IE:there is this city next to mine it must have about 30 units of Syrons teams (groups of 3). If they use their sword skill they could kill any of my units in one shot (more than 100 wounds each hit) but they just don't!! They just attack as normal units. They are still very strong of course and how do I beat them?

Well, simple, my Sovreign casts arcane weapon on each of my units right before each battles and dispels it right after. (cost to cast 1mana cost to mantein 1mana, which means I just better dispel it every turn than keep it unneeded.. another little exploit of course, because the AI doesn't do that either!!

Overall the very basic mechanics of this game still need a serious tweaking. Units should be faster (meaning they should move 4 tiles each turn, or more), there should be more things to do instead than having a map full of location one can't explore anyway because his level is to low. The monsters should occasionally be easier to kill and by killing them the players should get something (money for example as it used to be in version 1.0 which was full of bugs but more entertaining than this). The enemy factions should give the impression to be like us, instead than full of units they are unable to use. If I can teleport also the AI should be able to do that (then you'll see how much it's dumb and annoying ahahah) if my Syron units can kill a stack with one shot also the AI should use that skill to its full extent.

IMO any further development of the game should go in that direction, and then when things start to be realistic and the AI feels (almost) like a human player, introduce a play by email option and this game will see the longevity of Age of Wonders Shadow Magic in multiplayer.

 

 

Reply #16 Top

I have just recently WON! my first game. It took me like 6-8 games before i won on NOVICE, I just created my own sov and king stacked up the stats and researched civ/military defense armor is the best thing in the game. if you get armor made up you can kill anything you want with just your sov.

Reply #17 Top

 

 

I am going to have to disagree as well.

 

The customization is fun--still needs some fine tuning

The AI is improving-1.11 I have been attacked by massive armies with armor, weapons, and squads.--thank god for blink.  The AI has also started using more spells during combat, so that's even more fun.

Like all strategy games the first 100 turns sets the tone.  I have been wiped out by monsters and enemy Sovereigns.  If you want to kill more monsters you have to upgrade you stuff or get some extra troops.

You do know you can select a smaller map size.  If you want fast, seller the smallest map and select 9 opponents.  You will be in the thick of things in about 10 turns.

What is particularly annoying in this version of the game (1.11) is that I don' feel at all that I am like the other players. They manage to make armies,with a monumental number of hitpoints and huge defense skills, while I can only rely on the few units I managed to get while choosing to spawn random defenders for my cities. Obviously the other main difference is that I jumpity jump around the map with teleport, while the AI is carefully avoiding that obviously powerful tactics, because that would make even more obvious how teleport is an exploit impossible to prevent for the enemy. Players don't complain so much when they use exploits, but if the AI was doing it ... OMG!!!

I don't think I have ever selected the Spawn Random Unit.  I would recommend getting Tech or Arcane Knowledge.

 

I actually thought we made too much money.  I stopped selecting the Gildar bonus because of how fat my treasury was getting.

The speed of units seems fine for the size of the maps.  Teleport is good for, but I think it should be more expensive based on the size of the party teleporting.  A base amount plus X for each additional unit.

You also might be giving up a little premature.  The fact that they are developing Fallen Enchantress shows they are dedicated to making the game better.  Depending on when you bought the game you also get a follow up expansion for free.  Right now the game is fun and playable.  Hopefully, with Fallen Enchantress and the expansion the game will be what every one has waited for.

Reply #18 Top

After finishing my first game on Large, Epic, Challenging (I'm a wuss, I know), (also note I was using the common mods like enhanced spells, artifacts, creatures, quests, etc.) I found several interesting things:

 

1.  In game setup I had set up 7 opponents, all on Challenging.  I encountered only two of those opponents on the map.  The first was Tarth (predictably) with 5 cities, and a moderate amount of tough stacked units.  The second was Irena or somesuch, with a 1 square city, and several progeny.  The city had never been built out.  Of the other 5, nothing was ever seen.  My guess, given that I had run into damaged monster stacks, is that roaming monsters had nommed the AI opponents, who may have been in the 1 city no resources trap as has been noted earlier.  By the time I encountered Tarth 400+ turns in, I had figured out the goldmaking technique, and I was experimenting with tech and arcane research, and hopelessly outclassed him.  I was limited only by the amount of gold I could use to equip my plethora of heroes.  In short, AI was pretty helpless against even itself.

 

2.  Speed is fun.  Moving 2 squares is seriously dull, less fun to travel through a forest.

 

3.  Mana.  I'm torn on the one hand as to how slow mana is to get, but on the other hand the point is not to have armies of platemages.

 

4.  Food is currency.  Got this one off the forums, very good tip.

 

5.  Brown world.  While it is realistic by storyline, I suppose, it does feel dead.  I thought of an interesting solution though, and one that would turn the tables on the wily player:

This game has a list of terraforming spells such as I have not seen since populous.  If the point of the channeler sovereign is to bring the world back into balance, why not have that world still be actively shaped and devastated using random terraforming effects on unclaimed territory?  That your sovereign's influence by casting a "stability" spell on a newly founded city will cause it's influence to calm the land.  You could use a resource gained through questing or somesuch to do so.  This may also be a mechanism to generate new resources, etc.

 

6.  Equipment.  With all the talk of gold being the only resource needed to secure hero equipment, I do agree that once you hit metal armor/weapons it should cost resources.

 

7.  So many heroes...   In this game, I had a huge number of heroes.  Once they were equipped, the only variation was in what stats I put points this level.  I didn't really care what special abilities they had, and they were pretty much disposable.  AoW pretty much spoiled me on hero customization and abilities.

 

8.  Resources.  Very thin on the ground compared to other games in the genre.  While it was nice not to have to have an army of workers terraforming every tile, I pretty much dispensed with the strategic locating of cities and spammed as many as I could at proper distances.  When a resource was available, especially food, I would found a city, but otherwise each little 5 person settlement was valuable for its cumulative 30% trade bonus.

 

In conclusion, I like where this game is headed, but like good stew it needs some serious spicing and better gravy to hold it together.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting AlLanMandragoran, reply 8



Quoting Gammit10,
reply 7
I'm in the same boat as the OP.  I am constantly taken over by armies with twice as many soldiers than me, with twice the attack and defense that I do.  I have been spamming war tech like mad, but still don't seem to be fast enough.  What should I do?



Lower difficulty a setting if not already done so. Consider being agressive early game and eliminating an enemy faction or two to gobble up their starting capital locations. First thing researched should be equipment in Warfare tree. Gear your sov and Janusk, design a unit with oak spear and padded cuirass. Spam those units, make a stack, and go to war. If you take one or two enemy capitals you should be competitive through rest of game.

Thanks, I'll try that.  As of now, I'm only using one other faction besides my own.

Reply #20 Top

In 16 years of gaming Elemental is the only one I've considered gettingmy money back on. The Anaemic sound effects and lack of, well, fun (that one generally expects in a game) being foremost amongst my gripes. Seriously, just copy Master of Magic next time guys. Damn, I was so looking forward to the release of this game as well.

Reply #21 Top

Quoting dragoaskani, reply 5
Face it fro the most part this game. (this genre for that matter) revolves around teching as hard and fast as you can alot of the times. The tech advantage in turn based games is usually one of the biggest edges you can get.

This is why the Equipment and armour techs should not be game changers with a one tech level advantage imho.

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Black-Knight, reply 15
(You guys say to spam units and cities? What the hack can I spam if I have no money?)
I had this problem too when I was starting out - focus your first city primarily on population and gold. Each level bonus should be gold production. That should handle your money problem pretty quickly. Throw in some workshops to deal with material production. Soon, you will have tons of gold, I broaden its focus to also be my main military production city at that point.

Your second city should focus on maximizing tech production. Tech should focus on equipment, early on, if you want military, or it should focus on boosting economy through houses and buildings that give bonuses to gold production. Prestige bonuses are cool too.

If you want to use Corbeubm's strategy (which is very effective, but requires access to lots of land) then just research trade, and have caravans going to your main city from every city, and you will have way more gold than you could ever need, and each city can rush tech. I personally don't find it too enjoyable to play that way, though.