Yarlen Yarlen

Diplomacy v1.2 Preview

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Diplomacy v1.2 Preview

from Sins Forums

Happy 2011 to all the Sins players out there! :)   It's been quiet on the Sins' front for a while now due to other business, but as I promised late last year, we're working on a new Diplomacy update for everyone.  The update will be released in beta first due to a number of changes we're making in the game, probably in the next two weeks.  Once we're happy that everything is working as expected, we'll release a final version for everyone.

So what's going to be in the update?

  • Balance changes:  We're making a number of gameplay balance tweaks based on player feedback. These will include changes to both ships and tech tree items.
  • Various bug fixes from reported issues.
  • New Pirate System:  This is a pretty big one, so I'll detail it a bit more below.
  • Memory optimizations:  This is one of the key reasons for starting this update as a beta.  We'll be tweaking the game's memory use for greater performance.

Currently the Pirates can either be non-factors or incredibly nasty early on given how their upgrade system works and how their fleets are composed. If you get a streak of bad luck, you end up with Pirates that have an insane power curve that makes the game very unfun, very quickly. To fix this, we're switching the Pirates to a series of fixed fleet compositions and upgrade paths.  What this means is that early on, if you get tagged with a Pirate raid from bounty, you'll find them annoying but easy to deal with.  As the game progresses, the Pirates abilities and toughness will scale over time based on the amount of credits they collect from missions, bounty, their planet, etc.  The Pirates will no longer simply scale in power, either!  We're giving them unlockable special abilities that will give them an edge in late game situations. ;)   On the flip side, we don't want situations where in the late game, a player can send a massive Pirate fleet at another player by simply dropping 100 total credits on bounty.  So we're adding in a new system that will scale back Pirate raids levels if the bounty isn't high enough to warrant a big deployment.

Basically, the Pirate bounty system will be a bludgeon, whereas giving the Pirates missions via Diplomacy will be a scalpel. ;)

328,240 views 188 replies
Reply #126 from Sins Forums Top

While 20 might be low I think 45 is a little high.

Reply #127 from Sins Forums Top

We

Quoting DirtySanchezz, reply 116



Quoting Todd7912,
reply 115
Hmmm, I just installed the box edition of Trinity, so did a friend, and neither of us had the mesh problem. So, I'm not sure if reinstalling it will reproduce the problem.


Were you and your friend able to join games that were hosted by people other than yourselves?  That's where it would show up.  Since you both installed from Trinity you would both have the extra meshes so you could play games hosted by one another.  However, if you try to join a 4v4 or 5v5 hosted by someone else you'll probably get the mesh error.  It's easy to fix, just follow this link:  http://tinyurl.com/Sins10

We were the only two in that game but we later played with a third friend who did not install from Trinity. He has Sins. Again, we had no problems there either.

Fences - Organize your desktop icons today!
Reply #128 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting master1a, reply 126
While 20 might be low I think 45 is a little high.

 

ehh, ima preety sure LRMS are 30, illums at 45. since illums take 50% more fleet supply they give 50% more exp.  same logic... assailants, which require 50% more fleet supply than LRMS, should also be 45 exp.

Reply #129 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Todd7912, reply 127
We were the only two in that game but we later played with a third friend who did not install from Trinity. He has Sins. Again, we had no problems there either.

It's possible that the problem only asserts itself in Diplomacy and not regular Sins.  I've never heard of it manifesting itself in Sins or Entrenchment, but then again I only play Diplomacy (mostly).  Well, if you guys do suffer the problem you'll know where to go to find out how to fix it.

Reply #130 from Sins Forums Top

While 20 might be low I think 45 is a little high.

....
ehh, ima preety sure LRMS are 30, illums at 45. since illums take 50% more fleet supply they give 50% more exp.  same logic... assailants, which require 50% more fleet supply than LRMS, should also be 45 exp.

Assailants currently are at 20

LRM's are currently at 30

Illuminators are currently at 45

This is totally out of whack.  By command points, assailants award a paltry 3.3 XP per command, while LRM award a whopping 7.5 XP per command.  That's right, you get TWICE as much experience for killing LRM's as you do for killing a proportional number of assailants.  LRM's and Illuminators are roughly on par given their relative cost and strengths, but assailants are way too low, especially compared with other units (scouts at 15, flaks at 60+)

Push the assailant up to 40 and call it a day; the LRM's XP is fine as is relative to other units.

Reply #131 from Sins Forums Top

Wooo! New pirate mechanics. Ohh yeeeaahh.

Reply #132 from Sins Forums Top

I think exp points given per ships are meant to mirror tier of research. I don't know if command points mirror that as well but at least as lrms go they do seem to miror tiers.

Reply #133 from Sins Forums Top

 

Yarlen, I’m happy to see you guys working on a new patch to fix the memory issues, but at the same time I’m really disappointed that you guys are not going to add this fix to Entrenchment.  I personally hate Diplomacy; the whole aspect of it makes me sick that you would try to make friends with AI enemy you put in a game to go to war with in the first place.

 

Entrenchment is a far better add-on then Diplomacy is, it was an add-on bread for war. this is the type of game you guys made, an rts game where you go to war and conquest. Not making allies and playing nice.

 

Secondly, the pirates, will you guys consider giving the pirates some type of capital ship of their own? 

 

Reply #134 from Sins Forums Top

Darksxx, Diplomacy requires Entrenchment... if you have both... there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to play entrenchment because diplomacy INCLUDES entrenchment.   You can even turn all diplomacy off (ff, locked teams, diplo off), and now you have entrenchment with the bug fixes.

I mean, come on. Seriously you remind me of this :  ...  

Reply #135 from Sins Forums Top

Im just dreading having to go back in and redo my entire mod again.  with each new patch, especially this one. its a major undertaking to make it work. 

Reply #136 from Sins Forums Top

Revising mods after patches has always been the name of the game. I fail the see the problem.

 

Archive the version install you have now so you can continue to play it. *shrugs*

Reply #137 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Darksxx, reply 135
Im just dreading having to go back in and redo my entire mod again.  with each new patch, especially this one. its a major undertaking to make it work. 
You generally only have to change a few specific files that were changed. Generally when, say, new lines were added to gameplay.constants that would cause the engine to crash if missing.

 

:fox:

Reply #139 from Sins Forums Top

I'm trying to be patient but any news on release date.

We're aiming for the first beta next Thursday. ;)

Reply #140 from Sins Forums Top

Secondly, the pirates, will you guys consider giving the pirates some type of capital ship of their own?

No, this is against the game's canon.

For modders, I would definitely wait until after the patch is out of beta to save yourselves effort. ;)

Reply #141 from Sins Forums Top

Wow another week.  

Cant wait :')

Reply #142 from Sins Forums Top

I don't know if command points mirror that as well but at least as lrms go they do seem to miror tiers.


Then why are Cobalts (T0) at 30 XP?  Or Gardas (T2) at 60 XP?  There is no consistency; the current numbers are very arbitrary.  The Assailant is the only unit that's way out of line, but there's lots of examples of stuff that really doesn't have any justification for their XP award.

There is something to be said for scaling to quality, but if we're going to do this, LRF-type units should probably be more around 45-60 XP a pop rather than 30-45.

We're aiming for the first beta next Thursday

Then I will see you guys online next Friday to play-test.

Reply #143 from Sins Forums Top

ya, some of the support cruisers also have very odd numbers for their exp values... but the assailants exp value is just flat out WRONG.

I would say that capital ship exp is also a bit low... but we reaally dont need more reason to focus fire on them. lolz. the exp gain is part of the balance as everything else. Heh, a skirantra nerf, and the adjustment to the exp of assailants might be the only things required to bring vasari right back into line.

friday, going on my calender.

Reply #144 from Sins Forums Top

I would say that capital ship exp is also a bit low...

Given that losing a capital ship is already a horrendous disaster, I don't see a need to further reward the player who gets the kill. 

It worked like this in Warcraft III, but over there you could revive heroes with all XP intact for a fraction of the cost of their initial training cost, so a permanent penalty in the form of buffing up the enemy's heroes made sense.

Heh, a skirantra nerf, and the adjustment to the exp of assailants might be the only things required to bring vasari right back into line.

As far as early-game goes, I totally agree with this sentiment.  It might even leave Vasari a little weak in the vs TEC matchup if they can't grab enough neutrals.  Late-game, though, we really need to look at the subverter and kostura to get Vasari on track. 

Reply #145 from Sins Forums Top

Please, with the new pirate system improve the AI ability in placing bounties, too. Now they can not place bounty on other AIs but me. It is not so funny, when I have an allied player but I must pay all of the needed sum to keep enemies (and pirates, of course) away.

Reply #146 from Sins Forums Top

@ trigorin

Try following place like 2 or 3k of bounty simultaneously on 2 different AI players. What you will notice they will engage in biding war between each other. I said 2-3k just because you don't want bounty to disappear before biding war starts. Heck 500 credits is enough as long as both have more bounty as you do. 

I think code works like this. If there is bounty already on AI bids at "player" (AI or human) that has most bounty on other than himself. If there is no bounty AI places on best developed player in the game (economically and military - i do think human gets some basic bonus  here). Threat factor plays a role in calculation as well.

If you try to go against 9 cruel or vicious in FFA and you have a bad start you wont get pirates on you for a few raids ....

Reply #147 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 144

Given that losing a capital ship is already a horrendous disaster, I don't see a need to further reward the player who gets the kill. 

, ya, I agree.



As far as early-game goes, I totally agree with this sentiment.  It might even leave Vasari a little weak in the vs TEC matchup if they can't grab enough neutrals.  Late-game, though, we really need to look at the subverter and kostura to get Vasari on track. 

A little weak early is exactly where vasari need to be inorder to counter their rapetastic endgame.

 

It is possible for TEC to beat subverters actually rather simply... its just a matter of preparing for it (in capital ship choices, mainly)... but currently, it is just to impossible to hold off a vasari player now, while building a fleet to counter the late game fleet.

Reply #148 from Sins Forums Top

A little weak early is exactly where vasari need to be inorder to counter their rapetastic endgame.

Fair enough, though they do need to be able to survive the early-game with breathing room in order to reach that end-game.  Just look at what's happening to Advent right now... basically unplayable by anyone but top-level veterans.

It is possible for TEC to beat subverters actually rather simply...

Subverters are never simple; while I agree they are beatable, there is no safe way to approach them.

Reply #149 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Greg30007, reply 146
@ trigorin

Try following place like 2 or 3k of bounty simultaneously on 2 different AI players. What you will notice they will engage in biding war between each other. I said 2-3k just because you don't want bounty to disappear before biding war starts. Heck 500 credits is enough as long as both have more bounty as you do. 

I think code works like this. If there is bounty already on AI bids at "player" (AI or human) that has most bounty on other than himself. If there is no bounty AI places on best developed player in the game (economically and military - i do think human gets some basic bonus  here). Threat factor plays a role in calculation as well.

If you try to go against 9 cruel or vicious in FFA and you have a bad start you wont get pirates on you for a few raids ....

 

OK, I will try it out.

However I don't think AI should be as lazy in placing bounty as it is now. This method what you described above seems to me again a simple reaction to a statistical change instead of an intention to make any decision in diplomatic manipulation. I think the pirate raids is useful in making enemies occupied, not only a nasty thing which must be kept off.

Yarlen mentioned earlier that they was going to improve diplomatic part of the game. I'm looking forward to these changes.

Reply #150 from Sins Forums Top

simple reaction to a statistical change

 

Its a computer...all it knows is 1's and 0's. Statistics are its strong point. ;P