Diplomacy critique

from Elemental Forums

Perhaps this has been discussed before, if so then sorry but this forum's search function is just too painful.

Anyway, I recently played a game on the ridiculous difficulty. I was hoping the game would be more fun, but it played like any other game except some of the other kingdoms somehow had huge resources at their disposal. This wasn't really a problem, since the ai is generally pretty passive and stupid in the current version. I was playing a custom-made sovereign who had the royalty and diplomatic attributes. I was commanding the people of tarth.

What continues to annoy me is how limited diplomacy is. Though I gave my sovereign the diplomatic trait, it seemed that most of my peers valued everything at rates that made dealing with them impossible. After conquering the neighboring quendar (mostly out of boredom) I controlled the entire section of continent, and could explore further in only one direction. Unfortunately, this small spot of land was covered entirely by the influence of a small Gilden controlled town. I actually wanted to have allies, so I tried to get a non-aggression pact with the gilden, but since they were supposedly more powerful than me the pact would have cost thousands of "value" which I had no way of acquiring. This essentially forced me to declare war on them. This wouldn't be a problem if it were actually possible to become friends with some other faction. This wasn't the case, though. It seems that the only groups with whom I can actually get decent deals on treaties are significantly weaker than me.

To sum up here are my problems (along with a couple others I didn't mention yet):

  • I cannot seem to negotiate any kind of deal with factions who have higher power ratings (even ones I supposedly have good relations with).
  • It is also very easy to prey on weaker factions using diplomacy
  • Other leaders kept initiating diplomatic conversations with me implying that I could trade for some tech they had discovered
  • since my wife died childless in the first 50 turns, I was for some reason destined to die a lonely bachelor.
elemental
7,764 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I cannot seem to negotiate any kind of deal with factions who have higher power ratings (even ones I supposedly have good relations with).

I find that since playing on the harder difficulty gives the other factions such insane bonuses to resource production, the player is basically left unable to trade almost anything for any kind of value. You would think that they might actually add the weight of the resource loss for the player to the value of the trade. It makes a diplomatic victory on these difficulties almost impossible since you will ultimately be forced to initiate resource wars as the OP has suggested.

It is also very easy to prey on weaker factions using diplomacy

I think this point is simply an underscore of the fact that the relative loss/gain is never added to the value of the trade. I think it would nicely augment the diplomatic sphere if an AI added some value based upon the relative gain or lose of either side. Like, if I am super weathy and I try to cripple an opponent's faction by trading away their last stockpiles of a certain resource, then the AI should add a weight not simply for their large loss, but my very slight gain.

Other leaders kept initiating diplomatic conversations with me implying that I could trade for some tech they had discovered

This has been well discussed in other threads. It is generally agreed that these messages are a bit misleading as they are not connected with some diplomatic offer waiting for you. Most of the time it is just idle chatter with only limited substance.

since my wife died childless in the first 50 turns, I was for some reason destined to die a lonely bachelor.

Ever wonder why the sov is not an eligible target for an arranged marriage? I can understand the no new wife thing, but it always boggled my mind that my bachelor sov can not arrange a marriage between himself and another faction.

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

I decided to try out GalCiv2 for the first time in a few years while waiting for 1.1.  The diplomacy in that is incredible!  And the interface is nice and fluid.  Why can't we have something like that??

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kenata, reply 1
I think this point is simply an underscore of the fact that the relative loss/gain is never added to the value of the trade. I think it would nicely augment the diplomatic sphere if an AI added some value based upon the relative gain or lose of either side. Like, if I am super weathy and I try to cripple an opponent's faction by trading away their last stockpiles of a certain resource, then the AI should add a weight not simply for their large loss, but my very slight gain.
My computer crashed while I was writing my original response to this (looks like I may not be ably to play any game for a while). It seems that there is some attempt to weigh values based on the scarcity or abundance of the resources in question, but the way it is done is so primitive that it doesn't really matter that much except that it can be abused. An example would be trading a resource that a faction does not posses. On the first trade, you can get a pretty advantageous exchange rate. Conversely, you get very bad rates if the faction already has a ton of the resource. However, I don't think the rate takes the scale into account (I could be wrong, but I cannot check this), so I think you get the same rate for 1k of the resource as you would 10 or 100.

It's too bad resources cannot be traded when making treaties. I seldom have thousands of gold to throw around.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

It's too bad resources cannot be traded when making treaties. I seldom have thousands of gold to throw around.

I completely agree. Personally I think that a diplomatic system similar to galciv would be nice here. Sort of an all in one diplomatic screen. This way I could broker a peace deal which included giving up champions, marrying off daughters, etc. Right now, each arena of diplomacy is so insular that complex diplomatic trades are impossible. Yet, I think this is only one of several changes that would spruce up diplomacy. I think it would be cool if you could trade for resource income, like if I am making 30 materials a turn, it would be cool to be able to trade some of that income for some other straight resource I need or a trade treaty.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

That's a great idea. It would be a great way for poorer and weaker factions to make deals they normally couldn't afford with strong factions.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

have never managed to get a deal with a faction with a high power rating than my own (which is most of them, and seems to contradict the fact that most of the cities i attack have no more than one or two defenders). in the absense of technology or resource trading there is very little i want from diplomacy. all i ever used it for was getting extra channelers by aquiring other sov's daughters (whic is ridiculously easy).

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Onionfighter, reply 3



Quoting kenata,
reply 1
I think this point is simply an underscore of the fact that the relative loss/gain is never added to the value of the trade. I think it would nicely augment the diplomatic sphere if an AI added some value based upon the relative gain or lose of either side. Like, if I am super weathy and I try to cripple an opponent's faction by trading away their last stockpiles of a certain resource, then the AI should add a weight not simply for their large loss, but my very slight gain.My computer crashed while I was writing my original response to this (looks like I may not be ably to play any game for a while). It seems that there is some attempt to weigh values based on the scarcity or abundance of the resources in question, but the way it is done is so primitive that it doesn't really matter that much except that it can be abused. An example would be trading a resource that a faction does not posses. On the first trade, you can get a pretty advantageous exchange rate. Conversely, you get very bad rates if the faction already has a ton of the resource. However, I don't think the rate takes the scale into account (I could be wrong, but I cannot check this), so I think you get the same rate for 1k of the resource as you would 10 or 100.


It's too bad resources cannot be traded when making treaties. I seldom have thousands of gold to throw around.

Early diplomacy is much much easier than later diplomacy.  I'm not sure if it is time or AI population but later in the game it gets a lot harder to to make treaties.

You are right about the pricing of resources the AI does not possess (or don't have much of) - they do not scale.  One trick is to save a resource (materials, metals, diplomatic capital) that they have little of and then use the sale of them in bulk at a 'rare' price to fuel treaty making.

Keep an eye out for oddities too.  In one game I sold a champion to a minor faction at a ridiculous (high) price.  Managed to buy them back at about 1/8th of the value about 20 turns later.