DerekPaxton DerekPaxton

The coming 1.1 patch

The coming 1.1 patch

  We have been hard at work on the 1.1 patch.  Today we built an internal alpha which went to our testers and they began reporting issues, bugs, etc.  Our feature list isn't completely implemented yet, there are still a few things to checkin but I expect that they will be all in by Monday.  The team has been told to focus on bug fixes and polish between now and next Thursday (11/18/2010) which we are targeting as the date for the release of the public 1.1 beta.
  What is coming?
  Toby already posted about the two major changes coming in 1.1.  Global Mana and Population as a resource (in that improvements consume population).  Global mana is a significant change to the magic side of the game, and all the spells have been adjusted to account for it.  Population to improvements is a significant change to the economic side of the game, forcing players to balance their population between economic, production and military goals.
  There are a lot of UI improvements, one of my favorites is the city idle popup.  You now get warned when a city has nothing let in its queue, and you have the opportunity to jump right to it.
  But 1.1 also includes a rebalancing of all the stats, combat, equipment and creatures.  The goal here is to visit all the core stats, baseline them and make sure the numbers are reasonable.  Toby has been working on it and I don't envy him, its a herculian task and it won't be perfect right out of the gate but it will be a step in the right direction and we will be looking for opportunities to make it even better.
  One detail part of the rebalance is that we had to review what all the stats did.  This is was they do in the current version of Elemental:
Strength- Every point of strength over 10 gives +10% to damage.
Dexterity- Every point of dexterity over 10 gives +10% to your armors absorption (aka:defense).
Constitution- Constitution is added to your max hit points.
Intellect- Intelligence is used by various spells to adjust damage/effects.
Wisdom- Wisdom was kind of a non-used stat but in some places Essence was referred to as wisdom, Essence increased your max MP.
Charisma- Charisma is used to reduce the cost of recruiting NPC's (champions).  Charisma didn't do anything for champions.
  In 1.1 they have been changed to the following:
Strength- Modifies damage
Dexterity- Modifies dodge
Constitution- Modifies hit points
Intelligence- Modifies spell resistance, boosts some spells, required for Champions to cast some spells
Charisma- Sovereigns Charisma modifies Champion recruit costs.  Champions and the Sovereign give a prestige boost to the city they are in.
  That leaves us with the following formulas:
Attack (which is damage) = Weapon Attack + ((Strength - 10)/2)
Defense (which is damage absorb) = Armor Defense
Accuracy = 15 + (Level * 2)
Dodge = Dexterity / 2
Hit Points = 10 + ( (Constitution / 5) * (2 * Level) )
Spell Resistance = Intelligence / 2
Prestige Boost in City = Charisma / 5
  Elemental uses opposing roles for combat.  So if I have 23 Accuracy (I'm 4th level) and you have 5 Dodge (you have a Dexterity of 10) then we both roll from 1 to our rating and the highest roll wins.  I get a random number from 1-23 and you get a random number from 1-5, meaning there is about a 87% chance I will hit you.  The numbers are strongly weighted in the attackers favor as we didn't want to have long strings of misses going back and forth. (in fact as I look at it now I think it may now be weighted enough, we may need to change accuracy to level * 3)
  The nice thing about this system is that it never becomes impossible to hit or damage anyone.  It may become unlikely, but its never a waste of your time, and no creature is ever not a threat.
  Strength modifies damage as it did before but its no longer such a huge impact.  We were having problems balancing weapons because a 15 attack weapon on a 40 strength guy is 45 attack.  Now that would be a 30 attack, still huge but workable.
  Dexterity used to add to your damage absorption.  Which is fairly non-intuitive for Dexterity and kept us from designing more specialized creatures.  We want some creatures to be easy to hit and hard to damage, and others to be hard to hit but easy to damage, to makes them more or less difficult against different parties and attackers.  It gives us design room to grow into.
  Constitution now modifies hit points per level.  But the most important part is that hit points are now modified per level!  As your sovereign and champions levels up they will gain hit points, no more glass cannons.  We have played with a few numbers to get a progression that values level and the players constitution reasonably, but all the above formula's might be tweaked based on playtest feedback.
  Wisdom is gone now.  There are now 5 base stats (as there are 5 factions on each side, 5 tech tree branches, etc) and Intelligence is the "magic" stat.  We have to balance this stat a bit differently than most games because every sovereign is a caster but we don't want to make it isn't worth putting points in other stats.  We also use it as a limiter for what spells champions can cast, but your sovereign's don't have the restriction.
  Charisma is our non-combat stat.  We really wanted to allow players to build sovereigns that were never planned for combat.  They stay at home.  Charisma is a great stat for that.  The city your sovereign is in will get increased prestige, you can recruit cheaper champions (and let them fight your wars for you) and if you recruit high charisma champions you can use those in your cities to push prestige even higher.
  So why do we focus on stat adjustments?  It certainly isn't the sexiest part of the game, and many players will play without even noticing they changed.  From a code perspective removing a stat is harder than adding a stat (since you have to get everything that references it) so it's a lot of work without much direct payoff.
  The reason is that it's where you have to begin to balance anything after.  In order to balance the armor we have to know what the stats effect on armor is (formerly +10% per point of dex over 10, now no effect on armor).  In order to balance weapons we have to know strengths exact effect, previously we couldn't create high attack weapons because strength had such a huge impact that it was exponential.  Making strength more linear allows us to make weapons more varied.  Now that we have accuracy and dodge in we can create big weapons with high damage but penalties to hit, or small weapons with bonuses to hit or speed, but low damage.  We have more range to work with.
772,695 views 259 replies
Reply #126 Top

Quoting FatNonFree, reply 125

Quoting Kestral2040, reply 124
Quoting cephalo, reply 123All this stuff sounds like an enormous improvement. I do still have concerns about the I go You go combat. Especially in range combat, you have a situation where the team that can attack first can greatly hamper their opponents ability to retaliate, simply because they went first. I would very much like to see an initiative system, so that every battle doesn't play out like an ambush.
its coming but not in 1.1

 

Does this mean real time combat is coming?

 

no, an initiative system does not mean its real time, it just means that each side isn't split into a single turn.  Instead each unit acts in turn based on their combat speed. 

Reply #127 Top

Will we be able to mod the impact of the stats in the XML?

Reply #128 Top

1.1 sounds better than I honestly thought it was going to be.  I'm anxious to check it out.

Reply #129 Top

Quoting Kestral2040, reply 126

 

no, an initiative system does not mean its real time, it just means that each side isn't split into a single turn.  Instead each unit acts in turn based on their combat speed. 

 

If you're still working on making dex important make it affect the unit's initiative too; although obviously it won't help in this update.

Sounds like all the changes are going to help considerably, especially the less varied rolls.

My biggest concern is quests. I hope more are going in 1.1, but also that a new quest interface is being considered to see what quests you have, what stage they are at, and where they need to be visited next. It would really make quests far more accesible.

Reply #130 Top

Quoting Kestral2040, reply 103
you should never see more than one popup from an idle city, we were concerned about spamming the player with popups so you only get one when the city goes idle, if you dismiss the popup you won't get another one until you build something in there and it goes to idle again.  We are also looking to do some other visual indicators with the empire tree on the left of the screen to help you identify idle cities

Ya know, the best indicator in the game ever are those huge exclamation marks floating over the cities.

The only annoying bit about them is that they fade away on their own, making them a nice idea but failure on implementation.

The MAP is what you play on. Menus on the left, popup windows in the middle on the screen - those are all artificial and not a "natural" part of the game.

Just make it 2 symbols, one atop the other, so there is no messiness with one covering up another. (for unit vs improvement queue)
Or some hollow / transparent / overlapping symbols. You have interface designers and graphics artists that are paid to be better at this than me. =P

It would be okay if they faded away to maybe 30 - 50 % alpha after a while but you should not have to scroll around menus when the information could already be there. Right in front of you.

Reply #131 Top

If it is not to difficult or to late can we please have it so the Unit Cards that pop up be given the ability to be closed or minimized. It can be painful to have the cards open and consume alot of screen space for no good reason.

 

Reply #132 Top

The annoying bit about the unit cards is that they cover the area / units beneath them.

They should pop up in another part of the screen if the mouse would be directly on the card after it has popped up.

Reply #133 Top

No pop-ups please. How about a glowing outline around the city on the empire tree or something similar. Serves the same purpose without being intrusive.

Reply #134 Top


Derek Paxton or Kestral, has it been at all considered having armor being detrimental to dodge? The way I thought it could work for example is each armor weight class could halve a units dodge score. This could only work if dodge was made more powerful to account for the halving effect and that dodge would be at it's most effecient when used in light armor -Padded and leather armors-, with reduced effects on medium armors.

Reply #135 Top

I agree with Nikmesh.  Kael!  Toby!  Do that.

Reply #136 Top

Quoting Kestral2040, reply 106

we are concerned of course with all stats being important...  I have also had concerns about dex specifically needing more of a boost but the only way to really get a feel for it is to play around in game with it once the other numbers are balanced.  Keep in mind a dodge is 100% damage mitigation, so a character with a super high dodge will be very useful.  

As I mentioned in my previous post, if all Dexterity does is dodging, you will either have Dexterity be underpowered compared to Constitution (both survivability stats) or you will have to a boring situation where the hit rate is around 50%.

Using the given values:

Accuracy = 15 + (Level * 2)
Dodge = Dexterity / 2
Hit Points = 10 + ( (Constitution / 5) * (2 * Level) )
Increasing Dexterity from 10 to 20 raise the rate you are hit by a level 0 unit (better than the best case scenario) from 5/6 to 4/6, a 25% increase on your average survivability. Increasing Constitution by the same amount will increase your health at level 1 from 14 to 18, a 28% increase of your survivability. And Dexterity get worse as your opponent levels up, while Constitution gets even better as you level up. (Note: this disregards magic-based damage, which will likely ignore Dodge.)
 
But the problem is not only linked to these actual numbers, who could always be balanced. There is also the issue that Dodge-based survivability (all-or-nothing) is also worse than Health-based survivability (gradual). The reason is that if your troops can be killed in very few attacks, but resort on dodging them to survive, nothing prevent them from being unlucky and getting killed much earlier than the more durable, non-dodging troops. And some of you troops will get unlucky. It's better to have an army where every unit has 75% health than an army where only 75% are still alive, but their health is full. (Due to damage output not caring about whether the units are hurt.)
Reply #137 Top

nikmesh & lord xia, I also want the weight of the armours to effect the dodge stat as well ie
leather/padded minimal effect(-1 dodge),
chainmail more effect(-2dodge),
light plate (-3dodge),
medium plate(-4 dodge),
heavy plate (-5 dodge),
master plate being better designed/lighter (could have -4 dodge),
imbued master plate (-3dodge)

(these numbers are just suggestions to give an idea of the effect/choices wanted.

please add this effect for armours as it would help to force players to choose between higher dodge and higher defence

harpo

 

Reply #138 Top

I think if you're going to lower dodge based on armor weight (which is a good idea, particularly if you can make lighter enchanted armor using crystal), the base dodge numbers have to be higher. For a standard unit with 10 DEX, a -5 dodge penalty drops their dodge to 0.

Reply #139 Top

Alternately, heavy armors could just as easily apply either a "max dodge" or a multiplier to the dodge score.

 

Leather = Dodge*1 (or "nomax")

Chain = Dodge *.9

Light Plate = Dodge*.75

Heavy Plate= Dodge*.5

Masterwork Plate = Dodge*.8

 

And so forth.

 

I personally think this will be a really solid method for working out basic combat stuff, provided that the balance is set correctly.

Reply #140 Top

Quoting Malsqueek, reply 139
Alternately, heavy armors could just as easily apply either a "max dodge" or a multiplier to the dodge score.

 

Leather = Dodge*1 (or "nomax")

Chain = Dodge *.9

Light Plate = Dodge*.75

Heavy Plate= Dodge*.5

Masterwork Plate = Dodge*.8

 

And so forth.

 

I personally think this will be a really solid method for working out basic combat stuff, provided that the balance is set correctly.

This method would work just fine, though balancing would be the key to any attempt to implement it.

hmm......then all we'd need are small weapons that get damage bonuses from either strength or dex *Dreams of dex gouged assassin hero*

Reply #141 Top

Quoting GW, reply 13



Quoting Derek Paxton,
reply 9
...Essence is gone, units dont have individual mana anymore, global mana is used instead (as it was in MoM). ...


I'd love to see some extended explanations of this decision. The essence vs. mana distinction seemed like the functional idea that would/could let Elemental be a true step forward in the fantasy TBS genre, and I can't see any reason that it would be in conflict with a global mana system if it was treated as both an extremely rare resource in its own right and a stat that affected individual units' ability to channel mana.

(hits head on desk)

Essence is GONE?? It never really worked well but dumping it????  Did they take properties out of Monopoly too or now Texas Hold 'Em has only one hole card?

https://forums.elementalgame.com/387624

Can you imagine if we told Brad in that Summer thread, "Hey Brad, just *hit can the whole Essence idea..."

 

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Reply #142 Top

Removing the original concept of essence and making it a boolean to determine casting ability is a mistake.  The idea of the channeler being a unique and mighty being and not some mere caster of spells is a very interesting concept and has been an important part of the marketing and design of the game.  

Mana is like electricity existing in the land.  Long in the past the titans brought the crystals which absorbed all the mana and concentrated it.  Mana is collected by building shrines on these crystals, then gathering it into a usable form allowing spell casters to cast their spells, and finally returning it back to the earth to be reabsorbed completing the cycle.

Mana is used for casting spells; throw a fire ball, summon a bear, raise a tile of land, etc.  These are minor things that even imbued mortals can accomplish.

Essence is different than mana, it is not of the land, air, water, or fire.  It comes from outside the world and it is inherent in whatever allows channelers to imbue, live forever, and what makes them different from mortal casters. Only channelers have essence, not imbued casters, not their children.

Essence is not for casting spells or even mana caps.  It is epic in nature and should allow the boundaries of the game to be bent and broken. Essence can be used to raise a volcano from the mantle to the surface quickly destroying entire cities or armies, Imbuing mortals with the sliver of divinity needed to cast spells,  or creating game changing artifacts of immense power.  It is the stuff that comebacks are made of.

A great example of the use of essence is Sauron from the Lord of the Rings where he imbued his essence into the one ring which greatly increased his combat strength, influence over others, etc. However, he was much weaker when separated from the imbued artifact. He put so much essence into the ring that he could not truly die as long as it existed in the world.  I could see this being useful in the game...

To further extend the LotR example Sauron's master Morgoth imbued much of his essence into the land itself creating the ring of mountains around Mordor as a natural defense, created and imbued Balrogs and long lasting taints of evil which allowed his minions to survive and flourish over the eons.

TLDR:  I would like to see essence returned as a stat but ONLY for channelers but never for imbued casters or children of channelers because it was in the original design document and is an important differentiation between channelers and casters.  

opinion/

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Reply #143 Top

Quoting LeBlaque, reply 141
Can you imagine if we told Brad in that Summer thread, "Hey Brad, just *hit can the whole Essence idea..."
 
Release problems > "lore"?

Edit:

DanZu: all channelers (champions AND Sovereign) had Essence. It was what allowed them to cast magic (a tie with the magic in the shards, and the bigger the connection, the more magic could be channeled). No Essence = no access to the magic in the shards (no caster)

Reply #144 Top

 

Thats the way it worked, but now essense is just a true/false flag for if a character can cast spells.

I think that essense is more.

Reply #145 Top

Quoting LeBlaque, reply 141

Essence is GONE?? It never really worked well but dumping it????  Did they take properties out of Monopoly too or now Texas Hold 'Em has only one hole card?

https://forums.elementalgame.com/387624

Can you imagine if we told Brad in that Summer thread, "Hey Brad, just *hit can the whole Essence idea..."

 

Can you imagine if we told Brad in the two necroed threads on this page that combat wouldn't be RTS, and that we'd be dealing with army sizes in the double digits at the absolute max rather then thousands?

O:)

Reply #146 Top

Instead of an annoying pop-up maybe we can have an exclamation point over an idle city, that could disappear after a turn if we ignore it.  Even better would be different colors of exclamation points indicating which que is empty.  The problem with the pop-up is that BOTH queues have to be empty for us to be notified, so maybe there is a large build que, but an empty training que for many turns.  Also this pop up is actually BAD for new players as it will encourage them to deficit spend by training too many troops.

I still prefer alert icons to the side that would give up pop-up information, like new techs, new spell, caravan info, diplomacy requests, wandering monsters info from adventuring, and now city queue info, that we can click on or mouse over when we are in a mind to, rather than getting hit with it right when we are in the middle of something else.

Either that, or a kingdom report box at the end of the turn (like when the AI is moving) that condenses all alert information together, rather than popup after poput after popup.

Reply #147 Top

I honestly don't understand the lack of essence angst.

First, this should come as no surprise. It is exactly how Frogboy has been describing the 1.1 system for over a month

Second, people claim that it won't matter who is casting the spell, but that simply isn't true: that's what Intelligence is for. It modifies what spells can be cast and how powerful they are.

I don't get why people are complaining because Stardock didn't come up with exactly the system they want. Yeah, if I were designing the game I might do a few things differently, but I'm not, and the guys at Stardock have earned my trust so I think maybe we should wait until we've tried out their system before we start redesigning it. I'm all for feedback, but ripping apart a system you've never actually tried seem unproductive.

Reply #148 Top

Can you imagine if we told Brad in the two necroed threads on this page that combat wouldn't be RTS, and that we'd be dealing with army sizes in the double digits at the absolute max rather then thousands?

12 units of 12 troops for each of the two sides equals 144 troops which is triple digits. From my perspective, 100 troops v 10,000 troops is irrelevant as long as the combat is fun and the encounters are strategically meaningful. I have read a lot of posts since release about this idea of epic scale and troops in the thousands, but have yet to be convinced that this would add anything to the fun or meaningfulness of combat. I mean one could simply multiply all the counts by 100 and result in battle counts in the ten thousand range, but you would ultimately end up with the same feel out of combat. Perhaps one would rather move 1,000 units around a tactical map the size of the world map, yet this would be tedious and simply decrease the overall fun of the experience. My stance on combat has not changed since release, and is fairly simple. I believe that every unit should be capable of more than two actions, being attack and move. We should ask why a game like shining force or FFT has such gripping tactical combat, even though only a handful of units per battle. The answer is fairly obvious, which is each unit is capable of many different actions which adds complexity and depth to their combat model. This is the simple reason why a summoned unit is simply more fun and more powerful in tactical combat. A fire giant has something like 5-6 actions it can perform, giving it incredible tactical depth.

Reply #149 Top

So, as I perceive it, every caster you possess will draw from the same "essence" pool? Would this mean that a caster summon such as Familiar will also draw from the global pool? If so, it makes me hope for an ability/talent such as the spell I submitted for the contest.

Perhaps a silly question, but I must ask it. Is global mana to be per player, or purely global? Really must seek clarification, with a game as different from my norm as E:WoM is.

Reply #150 Top

Is global mana to be per player, or purely global? Really must seek clarification, with a game as different from my norm as E:WoM is.

I think it is global in the sense that gold or metal is global to your faction.