[Gameplay Suggestion] A Plea for some Strategic Depth

from Elemental Forums

You know, some meaningful strategic choices would really lend this game some depth and replayability.

First off, I should say that I kinda like this game. It's different, it's interesting, and it has a lot of potential. But, I have to admit, I was definitely bored after a few games. So... I put it off to the side for a while and played Civ 4 for the first time.

 

 

And that was something of a revelation. It actually made me a little bit sad to realize what Elemental could be (and isn't, in its current form) with a little more strategy. I would argue that there are some great concepts in Civ 4 that could add a lot to this game.

 

 
I've found that my basic strategy is exactly the same for every game of Elemental that I play.


1) Build a small garrison and a few pioneers.

2) Control resources. There's a negligable cost for spamming outposts and a significant opportunity cost for not doing so.

3) If 2) is done well, race up the warfare tree, with a little bit of Civilization thrown in. Concentrate arcane research on spells appropriate for shard possession.

4) Fight.

5) Win.

6) Stifle a yawn and a vague feeling of disappointment at the lack of meaningful choices I have to make during gameplay.



On the other hand, I can sit with a turn of Civ 4 for /at least/ 5 minutes developing my strategy.

-City Management: Since production (in the broad sense of building/training/research) is limited by population in Civ and training and building are completed in the same queue, I can try to rush out a settler and grab some land early, let my population grow a bit, or produce a worker to develop the land a bit. I can focus on early Wonders, or concentrate on developing an infrastructure that will allow me to grab the later, better ones. In Elemental, population growth, training, and building all procede independantly, so it doesn't much matter what I do. Sure, I build a workshop before study because I need the materials, but it turns out to be the same pattern pretty much every time. Strategy in city management is really minimal right now.
 


-Warfare: Civ4 has a much richer combat system- and they only use one stat to do it! Now, I wouldn't want Elemental to go the one stat route, but I think it illustrates that there is plenty of room for improvement. In Elemental, one unit will beat another, hands down, or it won't- but the difference is random. In Civ4, there is a "soft counter" for everything, and that system rewards a well thought-out mix of units in an army. Essentially, what war in Elemental boils down to is this: if my randomly alloted number of gold mines allows for me to have better quality or quantity of units than Faction Y, I win. If not, I still ususally win (but the tactical AI is another story, and hopefully will be fixed). So, designing units is fun, but when I go to war, I leave my brain behind.


-Research: I actually really like what Elemental has done here by seperating the "lines" of research. However, there could certainly be some "cross-line" requirements. As of right now, the research cost algorithm goes something like this:

Pacing_multiplier x [Tech_level_multiplier x Tech_level^Tech_level_exponent]

If the tech lines were more fully developed and had cross-line requirements this would add quite a bit of replayability. Adding another term to the above equation that multiplied current tech cost by the player's total tech level would encourage some diversification (to get requirements) but reward players for staying "focused" on the techs they need to implement their strategy. So, the equation would look something like this:

Pacing_multiplier x [Tech_level_multiplier x Tech_level^Tech_level_exponent] x [Constant_to_be_balanced x Total_tech_level]


-Champions: Civ 4 had a wonderful system for Great People. You could choose to do many different things with them, and they were all tough choices. Having champions in Elemental take some ideas from the Great People concept would really help make them more than jsut another unit that provides a small bonus. I would even be alright if not all of them were combat oriented. I never liked sending my nerds and farmers out on the front line. Maybe they could level up outside of combat and their abilities (bonuses to food production, administration, etc.) could be based on thier stats.?



So. Stardock. I really want to like this game, but right now it just feels like "Strategy for Dummies". I'm begging you, please please please consider adding a little bit of depth to this game.


And, if that's too much to ask, maybe you would consider improving our ability to mod the game. That way, I can just make the game I want to play myself and shut up about it.


Does anyone else feel this way. or am I the only one?

elemental
4,410 views 6 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

You're not alone.  I really wish they would've waited longer to release Elemental.  It's very clearly unfinished and while it's playable, it is pretty much the same thing over and over.  Just because a game can be played doesn't make it finished and this is what disappoints me the most.  Had I known the game would be released as it is/was, I never would've dropped $50 on it and pre-ordered.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Your absolutely right in the Civ4 vs Elemental argument. I think the major reason is that Civ has always been designed around simple systems that play into each other really well. So if you increase one stat, it lowers another stat, there is always a 'this-for-that' concept taking place when you make a decision in a Civ game, so that your never running around super powerful until your opposition starts to falter or you happen to know the game better than most.

Elemental appears to lack this, or at least only has the 'this-for-that' rubberband effect taking place in some places, but not nearly all. Hence why the game feels like it lacks depth, it basically does. You just build up your sittings for the sheer purpose of getting more resources. Generally after I've created 2 or 3 cities, my resource issues are usually no longer an issue, I think this is because the concept of upkeep is nowhere, you can just build and train and cast spells indefinitely, there is no rubberband effects pulling back on something else when you get more powerful in one place.

Research is probably where they pull it off the best, because your always deciding which branch of research you want to go down, so while you pump up warfare your neglecting the other 4 avenues. The same *could* be said for spells except without upkeep costs, it doesn't really matter, given enough time (clicking end turn) you can cast all kinds of stuff.

I think you hit the nail on the head personally, Elemental lacks simplistic systems that interact with each other very well. It severely appears to lack system of upkeep and maintenance and due to that it lacks the kind of depth your talking about.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

There really need to be more rubberbanding features.

The current Food system is bad, for instance. Once you hit the limit you're just plain stuck. No alternative. No choice.
Maybe eventually you can research caravans and they arrive somewhere at the breakneck speed of 1.

A rule of:  You cannot build anymore because we say so.
is simply a bad rule.  A standalone system that doesn't interact with the rest of the game in any way.

Food should affect population growth so if my empire produces 10 food and I currently have a food stat of -2, I should get a pop growth malus of maybe 40 %.

Conversely, keeping a small number of towns more than well fed should give a growth bonus.

 

There should be choices about the food management. Not just a flag like
Can build: yes/no.

 

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

To the OP:

 

I am sorry, but Civ 4 does not have a better battle system.  Not even close. Ground/Air/Sea is all the same.  Exactly the same.

It's different, and much better thought out, to a point.  If you look, you'll see how it was changed for Civ 5.  Civ 5 >>>>>> Civ 4 as far as battle systems go. I love the *potential* of the battle system in Elemental, but it needs a major rework (which is coming).

I am more keen on your other suggestions though.

 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting MOIISKA, reply 4
To the OP:

 

I am sorry, but Civ 4 does not have a better battle system.  Not even close. Ground/Air/Sea is all the same.  Exactly the same.

It's different, and much better thought out, to a point.  If you look, you'll see how it was changed for Civ 5.  Civ 5 >>>>>> Civ 4 as far as battle systems go. I love the *potential* of the battle system in Elemental, but it needs a major rework (which is coming).

I am more keen on your other suggestions though.

 

 

Yep, I don't disagree with you. Civ4's combat is one dimensional where Elemental's is two-dimensional, and vice-versa, if that makes sense. I guess the point that I was trying to make is that, in Elemental, I think having some unit type strong/weak against others would enhance the tactical and strategic elements of the game.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Civ4 abstracts warfare, but its a system that works because its a fairly simple game of paper/scissor/rock, one of many 'rubberband' effects the game has built into it, it is simple but used on a grand scale, it works, very, very well.

Granted, I love tactical combat so I love that Elemental chose to implement it, now we just gotta tighten down on how it works and balance things and we have a relative RPG/Strategy game within a game :)