About magic, books, mana, shards and arcane knowledge

from Elemental Forums

Something is more and more clear about what made MoM such a great game.

Choices. Matter.

In Mom : When you created your wizard, you had to chose your books and traits. And you were done with it for the whole game (sometimes you could get more books, but that was very scarce) So you were researching only the books you had chosen.

In Elemental : it's so easy to research new books. So the initial choice doesn't really matter. And as you can research new books while your reading in the books you're already owning, you research spells at a very fast rate. If you want a spell, you have the choice to get it. In MoM you had to be creative with what you had chosen at start.

About shards :

In MoM nodes gave you magic points that you had to split between skill learning (how much mana you can use per turn), research and mana creation. So you had to chose. You researched a very powerfull spell ? Too bad you didn't think about the mana you would need. Enough mana ? you can only use 10 per turn. You uber-spell will need 180 turns to complete. Too bad. You had to really think ahead. A big fight in 3 or 4 turns? Everything in mana to be sure ou have enough to cast the spells you would need. A very difficult global spell to cast ? Raise your skill to cast it fast.

It mattered because mana, how much mana you can spend per turn and research were tied.

In Elemental everything is separated. You can have a very high research in spells, a very high essence value (how much mana you can use. It's not per turn, but it's the closest thing to the magic skill of MoM) and a lot of mana (Tried 4 heroes imbued ? With 80 mana each ? Too bad the combat system is so weak that it's not so overwhelming). So in Elemental choices doesn't matter. You can have everything. Only time will do a little difference. But it's so fast to get what you want that it doesn't change anything in the way you play.

 

What could Elemental do ? Let's take the global mana pool Brad talked about, let's take the idea as things must be tied and that choices matter.

What do we have ? Shards give mana. Cities (or some heroes) give arcane knowledge. Essence says how much mana you can use. All of those things aren't even related. First : use arcane knowledge to enhance the Essence of heroes. You can't upgrade it at level up, you need to get the hero on a city with some "Arcane research". After being imbued, the hero must stay one turn in a city with arcane knowledge. To get a second point of mana the hero must stay for 2 consecutive turns, etc...(Maybe if the city is a big center the hero can earn essence faster, it could even be a trait to chose on the level up of city). Maybe you can still earn some mor epoints in level up, but you tie the ability to use more mana with you cities. So you have to do choices. Each turn you stay in city, you can't fight. But ! You can cast global spells (you don't need to move to cast them)

Shards : like in MoM, they must be a critical resource. Enhancing spells is a good thing, but it's not enough. They should allow some more things to do. Maybe borrowing the idea of MoM isn't enough. Shards could be places where heroes can earn new powers, or where you can cast powerfull global spells (global flooding should be cast from a water shard)

But it's not enough. It shouldn't be only for powerfull thing but also for mundane magic things : maybe earning fire/water/earth/water points that you can use for special effects inside your borders. Faster roads if you have an earth shard, enemy movements reduced to 1 movement point inside your borders if you control an air shard.

But it's not enough. You should be able to change a little your spells. You have 2 earth shards ? When you cast a spell you can add for 2 more mana a 10% chance to reduce defense of target for INT/3 turns. You have a water spell ? You can add a silence effect to your spells : enemy mages will have to spend twice the mana to cast spells.

But it's not enough. The more time you have a shard the more acustomed to it you'll become. You spend less mana when you cast spells from that element.

But, you don't have choices to do ! So unless giving all of that to players, let them chose !

So let's sum up : when you control a shard, you earn some mana each turn. When you have controled a shard for 50 turns you can chose one perk : enhancing spells ? Place to cast global spell for cost divided by two (then four) ? Additionnal effect to your spells ? Additionnal effect to newly created units ? Other ideas ?

EDIT : I forgot arcane knowledge ! At the moment you can use it to be able to chose more powerfull spells for research or research. It's still a two-way choice. MoM was insteresting because it was a three way. So add another use to arcane knowledge : use it to craft magical things, use it to add duration to strategic spells that target cities (like brilliance) If you use enough arcane knowledge you could change the spell to become permanent and free the sov from the mana upkeep, use it to spy on enemy spells, use it to enhance global spells, use it to create glod from it if you have chosen the "alchemist" trait at start (like in MoM), etc.

 

elemental
11,841 views 14 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree that what is missing from Elemental compared to MoM is the ability to magically customize your sovereign. Playing a strictly Sorcery (blue) wizard was a very different experience than playing a strictly Chaos (red) wizard in MoM.

If I decide to only learn Fire spells then I want a bonus of some sort (faster research, less mana cost, more effect, etc.). As it stands in Elemental today my only motivation is to pump up my overall spell level then cherry pick out the spells from each school that seem useful. If instead the game kept track of how much research you had put into a given spell book and rewarded you with a bonus, then you would want to research ALL the spells in a book not just the good ones. And if they would add more spells for each book/level, then it would be harder but also more advantageous to stick to just one school.

In short, like the original poster, your choices in what spell books to have along with which spells you decide to research needs to MEAN something more than just then having the spell.

Controlling a shard should make its corresponding spells cheaper to research. Or cast. Or something! If I were doing it from scratch I would make a shard generate "shard essence" or something every turn you control them, and then you would be able to use that shard essence to buy modifiers for that book of magic. So control an Earth Shard for 50 turns and then get a pop up to choose from a list of 1) Research Earth spells 10% faster 2) Earth spells do 10% more damage 3) Earth spells cost 10% less to cast. Then control it another 50 turns and get the pop up window again, where you can either increase the one you picked before to 20% or you can choose a different one. Or you know, something like that.

I think there is still a lot of potential for the growth of this game, which is awesome because I'm already thrilled with it!

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

In MoM nodes gave you magic points that you had to split between skill learning (how much mana you can use per turn), research and mana creation. So you had to chose. You researched a very powerfull spell ? Too bad you didn't think about the mana you would need. Enough mana ? you can only use 10 per turn. You uber-spell will need 180 turns to complete. Too bad. You had to really think ahead. A big fight in 3 or 4 turns? Everything in mana to be sure ou have enough to cast the spells you would need. A very difficult global spell to cast ? Raise your skill to cast it fast.

This is actually one of my least favorite parts in the MoM system.  While I like tying systems together with trade-offs, I don't like pitting magic research against magic usage.  When researching limits your ability to cast, you tend to beeline for the percieved "best" spells and don't even bother casting any of the lesser spells on your way there.  Once you've got the "best" spells, everything else in the spellbook is fluff, as you just start pumping mana/skill.  When the two are decoupled, you have more room to experiment in both and make use of some of the less "powerful" spells that may improve the flavor of the game.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Another problem : when you level up in a book, you gain the next level for all of your books ! A simple thing would be to chose which book to study. So if I have studied earth book to level two I don't have the fire book at level 2. We would have choices to do.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

This is actually one of my least favorite parts in the MoM system. While I like tying systems together with trade-offs, I don't like pitting magic research against magic usage. When researching limits your ability to cast, you tend to beeline for the percieved "best" spells and don't even bother casting any of the lesser spells on your way there. Once you've got the "best" spells, everything else in the spellbook is fluff, as you just start pumping mana/skill. When the two are decoupled, you have more room to experiment in both and make use of some of the less "powerful" spells that may improve the flavor of the game.

Yes, but it's not a flaw in itself, more of a problem in the implementation. Reasearch should have a use, even when you have researched the best spells.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I love the idea that you need to control a shard or 2 or 3 for more powerful and global spells, like flooding the world or creating very strong water spells, etc. It's better than the generic multiplier, divider or simplistic math equation. It should effect the game in profound ways and I love the idea. It also gives great value to these 'resources' and creates situations to fight over them, as should be happening.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

One I think you missed the point of the channeler. He/she is a prophet, a messiah who was blessed with the magical power to recreate the world....How is your sovereign supposed to be this world molding god if he is limited on what spells he can learn. The thing is the bugs in the game have been preventing us from getting very far into the game, and the AI really doesnt bring this accross very well, but from what Ive been reading of the Dev Journals, I can sort of see what Frogboy and the Devs intended. The game starts out harmless enoug, your a little mage that creates a few cities and brings hope to the many refugees in the area.

 

Then as the game progresses and you grow in power, The cities are just tools, and soldiers and armies become playthings for your amusement. See the other Sovereigns were supposed to grow in power too, until the end game were the most powerful sovereigns either coming to a peaceful victory, or Creating a whole NEW cataclysm by trying to wipe each other out with their neigh limitless power. I think we'll see this in the multiplayer more than the single player game. However if you limit them to just ONE or TWO books, then they are just your average mage...but thats not what this game is about, its not about some simple mage. Its about world builders and Gods amongst the Men and Fallen.

What I do agree with, is that your Channelers power should be more tied to the shards he controls. I do agree that Some spells should be found in the world, or granted from holding a certain amount of a certain shard, etc, and if you lose that shard you lose not only essence, but the powers that the shard granted. Thus adding more strategy. Is a sovereign too powerful to take head on? Then wage a war against his powerbase instead.

This would allow for more intrigue, backstabbing, and one hell of an epic sovereign versus sovereign battle.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Power is more about depth of knowledge than breadth.  I could easily see a very powerful channeler that focused solely on the malevolent, destructive nature of fire and ignored the more stable and nuturing powers of the earth.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

However if you limit them to just ONE or TWO books, then they are just your average mage...but thats not what this game is about, its not about some simple mage. Its about world builders and Gods amongst the Men and Fallen.

In MoM you could be a devastating wizard with only one color of book. But you had to chose it several times at start. That was a choice.

Each book should have really powerfull spells, so even with one or two books you can be a demigod.

At the moment, in Elemental there's no real choice, only in which order you will pick the books. And being able to level up all the books you own at the same time is too powerfull. Our choices need to matter, to have drawbacks. Without choice there is only one way to play the game, with slight variations. In MoM the initial choice of book was a tough one, in elemental you don't really care because it's only a matter of 50 (maybe 100) turns to get the most interesting ones AND research the spells you need. In Elemental all sovereign are jack-of-all-trades because it's too easy to learn everything.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting malekith, reply 7
Power is more about depth of knowledge than breadth.  I could easily see a very powerful channeler that focused solely on the malevolent, destructive nature of fire and ignored the more stable and nuturing powers of the earth.

 

True, but not because hes forced to. You have to understand they are channelers of ALL magic in the world. These are the rare beings that the magic of the world still flow through. The last hope for humanity and all that. They should be able to switch from Benevolent god, to Malevolent pissed off Scorch the Earth Demon on a whim...you know like how the Gods do it haha.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Zeferoth, reply 9
True, but not because hes forced to. You have to understand they are channelers of ALL magic in the world. These are the rare beings that the magic of the world still flow through. The last hope for humanity and all that. They should be able to switch from Benevolent god, to Malevolent pissed off Scorch the Earth Demon on a whim...you know like how the Gods do it haha.

While that may be appealing to you from a lore standpoint.  I would argue it is bad for the longterm replayability of the game.  If I can do anything I want, I'm going to pick the optimal path most times (I really did mean 'I' there, I'm a strategy gamer, not a role player, I tend to pick what's going to be the best path to victory).  However, if you force a little bit of RP at the beginning by making me decide in advance what sort of wizard I'm going to play, I'm going to be far more willing, and may find it neccessary, to work within constraints and alter my tactics from game to game.  That's what I'm looking for, something really different from one game to the next.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 8

However if you limit them to just ONE or TWO books, then they are just your average mage...but thats not what this game is about, its not about some simple mage. Its about world builders and Gods amongst the Men and Fallen.
In MoM you could be a devastating wizard with only one color of book. But you had to chose it several times at start. That was a choice.

Each book should have really powerfull spells, so even with one or two books you can be a demigod.

At the moment, in Elemental there's no real choice, only in which order you will pick the books. And being able to level up all the books you own at the same time is too powerfull. Our choices need to matter, to have drawbacks. Without choice there is only one way to play the game, with slight variations. In MoM the initial choice of book was a tough one, in elemental you don't really care because it's only a matter of 50 (maybe 100) turns to get the most interesting ones AND research the spells you need. In Elemental all sovereign are jack-of-all-trades because it's too easy to learn everything.

 

That would make sense if Magic wasnt so rare. The Sovereign is one of the last people to use magic period. Like I said I think he should be limited in the beginning by his selected books, and that he can only research his selected books, but as he travels through the world and taps into magic shards, and maybe kill other sovereigns who had other books, he can attain the power of the other books that way. 

I just dont think one or two books throughout the entire game really is in the character of someone who is supposed to be the last people to have control over magic.

 

Here would be my system...its late and IM tired so its a rough outline

 

you create your sovereign and choose two spell books.

lets say Fire and Water

 

These are your primary spells, and can be researched and enhanced the normal way that they are now. Then lets say you find an air shard, by tapping into the shard you gain a few lower level air spells or maybe leanr how to summon a minor air elemntal, you also get an essence boost.

you cant research air spells or any other spells except your two books, but you can find more air shards to increase the power of your air magic, and find more air spells and abilities. This basically works for all the other shards in the game. If you harvest shards of the books you already own, you just increase the damage of those spells, and we can make it so All the Top level spells from all the books require a certain amount of that shard to use. So for instance Volcano would require 4 fire shards, and Blistering Sands would require two earth shards. etc.

If you kill an enemy sovereign in your territory and wipe out his empire, there should be a chance that you can absorb ONE of that sovereigns spell books.

 

Should you lose any number of shards whether to roving beasts, or enemy players you should lose all the benefits of the shard, and the spell that relied on that shard should be greyed out until you can either reclaim that shard or aquire a new one.

 

As for you children, I think all children should only be limited to two spell books randomly selected from both parents. So if you had Fire and Water, and your wife Had Earth and Air, your kid could get Fire and Earth, or Air and water, etc.  Your first in line would be considered an "Apprentice" and thus get more essence bonuses than the other children, and when the sovereign dies The first in line assumes leadership and has access to all the spells and benefits that the sovereign had.

 

that would be a cool magic system IMO.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Maybe I wasn't clear enough (my english skills must be too low), but we are saying the same thing :)

Books shoudl be limited (I didn't say there should be no way to earn new ones during the course of the game) At the moment it's too easy to get all books and at the same time get them at level max. Moreover there's a lack of really powerfull high spells (or spells that don't do damage). I miss the "arcane" books of MoM where you could spy on enemies, prevent them from using magic, leaching mana from them, etc.

MAgic should matter, at the momen tit's too mundane, due to the fact you can get any book you want. Your choices doens't really matter because you can get anything you want. MoM was great because paying with one book of each element would get you only low level spells. Playing with full blue ? Totally different than full black or even without any book and just traits like warlord or alchemy.

The game need to have "locked" choices at start, choices that allow you to do things you can't do in-game through research or anything.

However, therre's one problem with what we are saying : if you chose a fire book and you don't find any fire shard you're screwed if you can't research without them. Maybe add the possibility to use arcane knowledge (a huge amount !) to change a shard to the desired element. And you can only change a shard to element you own the book. You can't change a shard to earth if you don't have the earth book.

 

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 12
Maybe I wasn't clear enough (my english skills must be too low), but we are saying the same thing

Books shoudl be limited (I didn't say there should be no way to earn new ones during the course of the game) At the moment it's too easy to get all books and at the same time get them at level max. Moreover there's a lack of really powerfull high spells (or spells that don't do damage). I miss the "arcane" books of MoM where you could spy on enemies, prevent them from using magic, leaching mana from them, etc.

MAgic should matter, at the momen tit's too mundane, due to the fact you can get any book you want. Your choices doens't really matter because you can get anything you want. MoM was great because paying with one book of each element would get you only low level spells. Playing with full blue ? Totally different than full black or even without any book and just traits like warlord or alchemy.

The game need to have "locked" choices at start, choices that allow you to do things you can't do in-game through research or anything.

However, therre's one problem with what we are saying : if you chose a fire book and you don't find any fire shard you're screwed if you can't research without them. Maybe add the possibility to use arcane knowledge (a huge amount !) to change a shard to the desired element. And you can only change a shard to element you own the book. You can't change a shard to earth if you don't have the earth book.

 

 

No no, you can research spells of the books you chose at the beginning of the game. you just cant research the spells of books you aquire within the game. So if you find an air shard and it gives you air abilities, it doesnt mean you can start researching air abilities you have to find more air shards.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

From reading the Dev notes I'm pretty sure we are going to end up with a system where you start with NO books (or at least there would be less reason to pick a starting book) and be able to research any book you want. Which I'm OK with as long as they introduce more "wizard picks" at the start to still allow customization and re-playability. If I start the game and find a water shard nearby, then I can start my research down the water path. Each game would be fluid (pardon the pun) in that I could tailor my magical research based on the shards I control - find no fire shards, don't research the fire book. They also need to break out that one magic tech where you suddenly get three different books into three separate techs, and then also implement the idea that there are certain spells you can only learn if you have book X AND book Y.

But we still need the beginning picks Master of Magic had like "can research spells faster," "generates mana from shards," "troops gain experience faster," "costs in the shop are cheaper," "X spells cost less to cast" and so on. Only with tons of options, and options that are MEANINGFUL and obtainable ONLY at character generation, will you get true re-playability.