The thing is, though, we did do all that. The difference is there wasn't a "phase" where it was like: "Okay, let's everyone talk about gameplay". It just kept evolving as time went on and they picked up bits of discussions all along the way to incorporate into the game.

My biggest worry is that because the game was never set for any length of time, and we never got anything really near-final, it was impossible to judge how the late game on big maps will behave. I expect there will be more than a couple scaling issues on these maps, especially having to do with resources. I fully expect you to be able to make vast amounts more on the large maps than you would be able to spend. Likewise, I sadly think the Empire Tree that's supposed to replace unit list windows won't be as functional as the one in Sins - but it really needs to be in order to provide the necessary controls on the large maps with tons of stuff to do.

How can we discuss pacing and discovery when we don't even know how the game ends? How can you discuss the interplay between salt and pepper when all you have is salt and pepper? These things need to be discussed in the context of the whole picture, and that never happened. Maybe some of our scattered observations might end up in the final game, but they would also be very untested.

Well, untested by you anyway.

This is the way we've always done our betas. We have gotten a lot of crucial information out of the beta program.  I guess only the release version will tell the tale of whether we got it right.

If you guys can make me look like a fool, I would be immensly satisfied. If you've done well enough hopefully the community will have the stamina to keep things improving. In the future though, my opinion is that your betas should be more like gameplay betas and less like technical betas. That means make the funnest, most stable game you know how to make, and then let us tear it apart. I think that would make the best use of the community.

EDIT: and for the love of pete, NEVER allow yourselves to up and lose control of the release date! The game is ready when it's ready! I'm an idiot when it comes to business, but there must be something you can do to harness that beast.

The game IS ready for release.  There's no scenario where I would have agreed to delay the game until February.  Sure, I'd love to have say another month to play around with the AI and such but we're an indie. We can't get shelf space during the Fall, only Summer and late Winter.

The problem is always one where people have expectations that just can't bet met by a first generation game that doesn't have an unlimited budget.

We don't do "gameplay betas". We never have.  Blizzard may have that luxury (and even they only did their beta with multiplayer).  Our betas focus on game concepts and technology because that's the part we need help on.  

Ok, ok! I'm just nervous. You guys are the good guys in the PC game industry and I want you to do well.

Lol, cephalo, start your own thread to be locked!

Not that The Frog can;t take honest criticism, and I think we all agree yours are heartfelt and more or less valid concerns, but there have already been plenty of threads about the game not being ready yet - (May they rest in peace!)

The thing is, Stardock's approach to development and post-release support is such that even if the game is clearly lacking something at release, it's pretty much guaranteed to come in updates and expansions. A lot of companies push out a game and maybe a patch or two with bug fixes, and then leave it.

Certainly if the reviewers find the game to be lacking it would suck, but, SD would still make the game better as time goes on. I imagine a lot of people aren't really used to this approach, and would rather see "everything" in the day0 version, but it doesn't always work out that way.

If SD can fix up and patch up stuff that clearly needs it quickly (and without seeing the final product I of course can't say that there will be), there won't be much long term damage done. They just have to be active about it, and not put off any changes that could be sorely needed quickly into far-off expansions

Lots of hypothetical ifs here. Obviously not saying that's how it's going to go down, we'll have to wait and see.

having worked in the Software Industry for 10+ years Technical Beta is the way to go. It's better to get the core concepts functioning properly then proceed with the spit and polish. I've seen examples where the Devs concentrated on the UI and did the Technical work last it never ends well and usually delays the project drastically. I've seen one Enterprise Project take 6 years before even considering allowing for a Demo and it took another 2 years to get a usable product.

Stardock releases solid products,

Even if there are problems, as long as the problems aren't fundamental, they can be fixed, and Stardock's history says they will be fixed.

I'm no code monkey at all, my friends actually banned me from ever trying to code i was so incompetent.  However, I could tell that Stardock was trying to make sure nothing unfixable was left in the game.  That's why everything is so moddable- the side benefit is we get to play with the tools, but I think the main reason is to make sure the game can be improved over time, which helps repeat business.

Look at GC2.  Over the course of the game, Stardock improved a lot of things, and made the game from decent to a near-classic (I think you guys fell short of classic, but still in the very good category, and I was more then satisfied with that).  The only thing that kept it from being classic were some niggling things that couldn't be patched.  (I think another XP would have made GC2 a classic if you had fixed the sliders and tech trading, which you guys did in this)

I do think the survey shows that many of us do think Elemental was rushed out the door earlier then it should have been.  While I think Brad disagrees, it does show in some areas.  That said, I think the hardcore Stardock fans will give Stardock a lot of rope, due to the respect that has been earned in the past, and patience will be shown- I do think Stardock's fans are much more patient then any other fans I've seen- because they get rewarded for it.  I'm expecting decent at launch, with steady improvement for 2 years.  I'm unsure if a true mod community will form though due to the updating.  The big mod communities tend to happen in large games, or games that are good but with gameplay issues and not a lot of support for them (Total War games, AoW)

I know with Elemental, at worst I'll get a decent game at launch, and one that will improve over time, and an improving game is like getting the new game feel over and over to me.   I hate saying this, but I'd rather have a good game become great at day 180, then the great game at day 1.  I'll end up enjoying the delayed greatness more, even if that's irrational.

Gameplay, as long as it's numbers that can be tweaked and not the core engine- is easier to fix then other things.   Core engine stuff will likely need an expansion, which I'm sure SD has a couple planned in the budget somewhere for mid 2011 and early 2012.

Just curious but what is lacking in the AI department?

Does anyone know what the Galactic Civ 1 beta was like? I was pretty impressed with that game (although I didn't play it until it had been out for awhile) so if that was done without any beta test of it's gameplay it would put aside many of my fears for elemental.

Remember this is not thier first time doing this. They have done the beta just like this on thier previous titles and they came out pretty good.

The only thing that they can do to make this better is to give me the game and book for free right now.

If this was anyone's "first" technical Beta than it does seem like the game had areas that may not have had as much exploration as might be expected. That is the nature of the Beast. Hard to get a full picture when you never have the whole game but it does keep things way more focused.

After the Day 0 update (Patch is a bad word) I will continue to takes notes, good and bad, and keep the whole "Beta" process functioning. If not for E:WoM Prime, then for whatever the first XP might be and I would like to see added or changed in that medium.

I think the Beta crew did a great job. Now to reap the benefits. I am going to decimate Raven X's little world in MP. I know he is all out of Essence by now. Muahhhhahahahahhaha LOL