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I like what I see, but I hope that Stardock has enought time and resources to finish and polish it...

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I like what I see, but I hope that Stardock has enought time and resources to finish and polish it...

from Elemental Forums

This thing has great potential, but it needs SO MUCH MORE WORK, before it becomes something interesting to play. I think only now the game shapes itself into something that actually could be called beta, but still lots of things are missing or not working, so I am not sure if it can be called beta, it is still more like late alpha.

Anyway, I see huge potential, but lots of balancing, tweaking, and fluff is required in this game, but it can not be done properly yet, because lots things are not implemented properly. The adventure part will require lots of investment, for quest to be interesting, numerous and of just right difficulty. I see how much work is needed in the game. And without challenging AI, unit balancing is not exactly possible. As far as I see the main GAMEPLAY part, is yet to be tested and adjusted, so, HUGE amount of work is ahead, because adjustment of gameplay sometimes require big changes in the code.

I do like the fact that with beta 3 the game development seems to be accelerated, but the reason I am writing this post is to ask the developers to put even more effort into it, and at the same time, not to release too early. This game can be a jewel of the gaming, but it does require lots and lots of work until it reaches that point. I can easily see how such complex and multifaceted game become ruined by not balancing and polishing it. I hope that Stardock did not bite more than it can chew, because the game is indeed very ambitious, complex and very very promising.

89,163 views 36 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

then you are not reading the thread annatar :) (or only the op)

 

my main concern is that elemental will come out with a few bugs, good polish but mediocre gameplay. sins for example got me hooked pretty fast but after playing some games it became stale pretty quickly (luckily there were mods). gavlcivII while i do like it and even play every once in a while it could have so much more. (carriers, portals, warp lanes, world ships, ...)

 

that is what i meant by shallow, i do not mean bugs, missing features, lack polish but a general feeling that comes after playing a few games: been there, done that, next.

 

a really good game will get you hooked because each game you play is significantly different from the game before and there are always some surprises. i really hope stardock proves me wrong this time and makes a brilliant game.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ZehDon, reply 4

I'm not trying to be rude here, just curious, but are you aware that the Beta build that we have is, at least, several full build versions behind what Stardock actually have?  The game, on their servers, would be much, much further along than the Beta that we have.  The first stage of the Beta didn't even have the graphics engine turned on, however it was completed long before that.  They're turning on and adding individual components for us to test for them, while they continue to work on the content on their end.  They've tested it, got it to where they can, and now we're testing it to break it so that they can fix it. 
Testing each individual component means that when they add them together, there is less testing overall due to increased focus.  We'll be receiving the Tactical battles this week, which will be accompanied by another round of bug and stability fixes.  That is where the focus of the next stage of the Beta is, meaning the previous stage's bugs and glitches have been corrected on Stardock's build to a point where Stardock feel confident.  The UI is getting over-hauled, which is something you do once all the other pieces is in place, which would mean that they're nearly feature-locked.  Once they're feature locked, the A.I. gets coded in, which doesn't take that long to be frank, which means its close to spit and polish time.  I don't think you have anything to worry about.  Galctic Civilizations II is still considered to be a masterpiece, a 'single player stategy mecca' was the term used to describe it to me.  They know what they're doing

This idea that any concerns are meaningless because we don't have todays internal build to play with is kind of silly. Listen to some of the videos and you can hear Brad mention UI improvements in real time. Not "oh hey this Empire tree is vastly improved in our build that you can't see", but "this needs to be improved for next week."

It's true, we don't have tactical battles yet. It's not true that they're months ahead of us in everything. If they were, this entire process would be a complete waste of everyone's time (including theirs).

 

Honestly, speaking as a developer myself (and someone who commented on this once already and got torched for it), I think it's time to lay off a bit. I've got users telling me at work what I can and can't do all the time too, but I've trained some of them not to do that because they really don't know (instead they tell me what they'd like or when something is hard to do, and I worry about what can and can't be done about it). We should do the same. Tell SD what we want, what we like, and what we don't like. Let them worry about what is or isn't possible.

That said, they also need to calm down. They keep saying they've gone through this several times before, at this point it's time to stop taking it personally. The users are worried about release. That means they care, and they mean well. Caring users are a good thing, even if they're irritating sometimes.

Siege of Centauri
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting tesb, reply 26

that is what i meant by shallow, i do not mean bugs, missing features, lack polish but a general feeling that comes after playing a few games: been there, done that, next.]

This is exactly what I mean as well. We are not testing much of gameplay! It is quite possible that they have the gameplay testing for already half a year, something that we do not see, but somehow I doubt this.

In all good betas, that become good games, gameplay testing with beta testers starts about HALF A YEAR before release, this is how much it roughly require to polish gameplay, balance all things, optimize AI, etc. Take the most recent Starcraft II beta. Quite playable and fun beta was available half year ago, and all this time they spend fine tuning and sometimes dramatically modifying game mechanics, so that the game become fun, balanced, etc. And that is Blizzard, that has much more resources to internally test the game and introduce new features than Stardock.

But we have about one month left! And we still do not see "feature complete" beta! Call me pessimist, but I think that for this game to become good, I would guess they need additional several month, and may be half a year to make the game rich and balanced. That's based on other betas that I have seen, including past betas of Stardock itself (GalCiv). If game is released in August, it is just difficult to believe that they get it right from the first go and without much gameplay testing with us.

I may be wrong, hell I HOPE that I am wrong, but Stardock, PLEASE, take you time, do not rush the game! Let us play with good, feature complete beta, and after that implement corrections and enrich the game before the release.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

I guess I don't quite understand why one would make a "I'm afraid the game won't be ready in <insert manner>" thread instead of "The game is lacking in <insert manner> currently, here's a few things you can do to make it better: ....". If you're worried about the game lacking something, wouldn't it be better to post ideas and suggestions that would make the game more complete in that regard? It's okay so say you're concerned, but without offering anything to help SD's probably left there thinking "Well, okay. We already know that.. next?"

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

The game that will be released is not going to be the final version. Frogboy even said that he would continue to work on this game for at least another year, which means that 5 or 6 months from now the game might be completely different from what it is now, due to balancing and adding new content and such. I really don't understand what people are worried about.

This is true but first impressions are huge.  They are welcome to do whatever they wish but there is a large section of gamers who will try the game out, not like it and never come back to it.  A few do this, tell there friends the game isn't good and more sales are lost.  It won't matter what changes are made at that point, those users are lost.  As this is a bit of a niche game the buyers will probably be more forgiving but it would still be better to add the extra content and polish in the initial release than wait for later.

I have faith the game will be pretty good when it's released.  I just don't see it becoming a great game by August 24.  I know we are not seeing the whole picture but I have a feeling that things like quests, spells and building types aren't much more advanced than what we are currently seeing.  There should be ~200 spells and tons of quests.  Balancing 200 spells and writing hundreds of fun, interesting quests will be very time consuming for instance.  And there is much, much more than that.  Hopefully I am wrong but that's what I feel.  Would much rather them go the Blizzard way and wait a little too long to release then release too early.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 29
I guess I don't quite understand why one would make a "I'm afraid the game won't be ready in <insert manner>" thread instead of "The game is lacking in <insert manner> currently, here's a few things you can do to make it better: ....". If you're worried about the game lacking something, wouldn't it be better to post ideas and suggestions that would make the game more complete in that regard? It's okay so say you're concerned, but without offering anything to help SD's probably left there thinking "Well, okay. We already know that.. next?"

In short. So far the game lucks gameplay. (What it has is moving pieces on the board, which I can not yet consider a game). Suggestion - spend more time creating it, do not rush. There is tons of work needed in creating interesting gameplay. As for particulars, I do not know - I am not a game designer, I can not create an attractive gameplay just in my head - but I guess lots of gameplay oriented testing is needed and one month is not enough for that.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

If you're not a Game Designer then how do you know one month is not enough?  I'm not trying to insult you here, it's just that these kinds of "I don't make games, and I don't know how to make games, and I don't know how to make this game better, but this Game isn't good enough." posts are pointless.

If you have a suggestion for the game, by all means post it.  Offer up some constructive critism, present valid arguments and reasoning.  Infering that the Developers at Stardock are in over their head and are producing a game that will ultimately be terrible only adds weight to my opinion that you don't really know how game Development processes.  Do you honestly think Beta 3A with some refined UI elements and Tactical battles is going to be the game that ships out?  Really??

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ZehDon, reply 32
Do you honestly think Beta 3A with some refined UI elements and Tactical battles is going to be the game that ships out?  Really??

Functionally? Yes. Are you expecting say the magic system (to pick one at random) to get a complete rewrite between feature freeze and release? Most of the game is there, feedback about it as a whole game is totally valid. And yes, that includes "this isn't fun".

One of the problems with asking for feedback and saying stuff like "we won't release it until it's ready" is commentary from the people you're asking for feedback on what "ready" really is.  At some point they need to realize that if you give people something that isn't near completed and ask for feedback a month and a half before release, they're going to be worried. Since it keeps happening, they should expect it by now. Scolding people to stop doing that won't change it, or it would have stopped happening by now.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 33
Are you expecting say the magic system (to pick one at random) to get a complete rewrite between feature freeze and release? Most of the game is there, feedback about it as a whole game is totally valid...

Re-writes?  Hardly.  Additions and tweaks, absolutely.  As I said in my post, if something isn't up to scratch, explain why and offer some thoughts as it how to can me made fun, otherwise the post has zero validity.  Such in-valid posts are usually called 'trolling'.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

I am of the firm firm belief that Brad and Company are keeping some things to themselves for a reason. Many folks join a Beta in the hopes that they will get a look at the Final product before the Final product become Final.

Well that is BS and I actually have come to appreciate the fact we get bits and bytes of the Full deal so as to allow even those who have been tortured from Beta 1.0 through the current 3A to have a NEW game to play come release day... O:)

I will have to withhold further game play judgments, and send in more Crash .zips, until 3B drops, as the current Beta build obviously is not Gold material in any sense of the word and is that way by the Dev's hand.

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ZehDon, reply 32
If you're not a Game Designer then how do you know one month is not enough?  I'm not trying to insult you here, it's just that these kinds of "I don't make games, and I don't know how to make games, and I don't know how to make this game better, but this Game isn't good enough." posts are pointless.

I am not a game designer, but I am a game player, including many betas, including Stardock betas. (It is like litirature critic, you do not have to be able writing books :) ) Usually, one month before gold the game is more or less done, and the things which are left are fluff, balance and fine tuning. This beta may be very different, but if it is not, I am just asking the developers to not rush the release and spend necessary time for this game.