This is crazy...

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/starcraft-sc2-wings-of-liberty,news-7388.html

Theres a video at the bottom. I guess I should give up thinking I will ever be good at RTS games. I'm way to slow. I'm more of a deep thinker, which takes time. I do enjoy RTSs, and will continue to play them, but to think I could ever play through any RTS at 25% of the speed of that guy.... I cant do it. Its impossible for me.

40,958 views 22 replies
Reply #1 Top

Those guys seriously need to get a life. I bet they haven't seen the sun since they got a computer.

Here is the Vid from the OP

 

Reply #2 Top

The good news for you is that Sins isn't much of a clickfest, which is why I'm able to play it.

Reply #3 Top

I guess I should give up thinking I will ever be good at RTS games.

The vast majority of players can compete with a very reasonable speed.  You only need these crazy-fast reflexes when you're at the pro level or approaching it.  You may never even run into one of those amazingly good players in your entire time online (even back in the days when WC3's matchup system was very inaccurate, I only found myself against top-players two or three times out of hundreds of games), and for the most part it's not going to be about speed.

One of the problems I have with "clickfest" is that it implies you can get better just by improving your speed.  This is untrue; in fact many of my friends when they first play with me try to speed up to match me and they get worse.  Micromanagement is first and foremost about getting the job done.  It's about making the necessary orders in the most effective way possible, while minimizing any delays caused by thinking.  If you're sacrificing the quality of your decision-making process, you will lose no matter how fast you're going.  What makes those pros good isn't their fast fingers, but rather that their minds are going just as fast without any apparent decrease in the quality of decision-making.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 3

; in fact many of my friends when they first play with me try to speed up to match me and they get worse.  Micromanagement is first and foremost about getting the job done.  It's about making the necessary orders in the most effective way possible, while minimizing any delays caused by thinking.  If you're sacrificing the quality of your decision-making process, you will lose no matter how fast you're going.

My first RTS that i really got seriously into was Rebellion. I played against my friend all the time. Like sins, Rebellion would have some very long games. Most of the time, we would only get so far before having save and continue another day. We would have these fights all the time because of the length of the game, he would always want it running at max speed, where as i found i missed way too many strategic things at that speed. When it was slowed down, I can tell you I did alot better (usually still lost, but I always could suprise him with a killer strategy he wasnt expecting if I had the time). Now some of this extra time, I wasnt really doing much but double checking that things were going as I expected. That and checking some stats to determine strategies is what really slows me down. Because of this, I didnt always need to be on the slower speed and we settled on max speed, but I could slow it down 2 notches for a bit if I needed it.

Playing sins, I'm not sure I want to play really fast. I know I'm not as fast as other players online. Taking my time is my way. If at some point I dont need that time, I could easily spend it just looking around the game. I often find things this way that I wouldnt have picked up on before

Reply #5 Top

Here's a dirty little secret:  real-time strategy games (including Sins, at least the way it is played online) aren't strategy games, they are tactical games.  What matters most is "micro," not "macro," and they are all clickfests.  Even Sins, which is said by many to be a slow game, is way too much of a tactical clickfest for me.  I've watched pro-level Sins players - even being in the same room with them while they are playing.  In almost all cases, what matters most isn't any strategic decision-making at all, rather it is their ability to "micro."  I literally saw a Sins pro (I was sitting in the same room with him) go into a system with literally a handful of ships (a few skirantras, a marauder, a couple minelayers, and some subverters), and destroy several hundred ships from 2 different players allied against him, and the players allied against him weren't bad players.  All he did was micro out the ying yang, and abuse everything for its maximum potential.

Was I impressed?  No, I wasn't.  I don't think that kind of thing should be "allowed" by a game.  By all rights and measures, he should have been utterly crushed.  But it was he who utterly crushed.

Most Sins players I know of think that Sins is a strategy game.  You can play it that way if you are sitting in your room, playing against the AI.  But multiplayer online, Sins is as far from a strategy game as you can get.  I differ with Darvin on this point.

As far as the Koreans go, I'd much rather be off banging one of my girlfriends than working on my APM.  I could just care less about click speed determining whether I win or lose.  Chess isn't about physical speed, why should Sins or any other "strategy" game be?

Reply #6 Top

I'm guessing he used minelayers around subverter disabled fleet and cleaned house.  That is a rather specialized type of thing and one way that vasari are OP.  I agree that you should not be able to do that but that has nothing to do with clicking fast as you don't have to click fast to do that.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #7 Top

You have to be very cautious when you see minelayers and subverters in a group.  It's beatable, but it takes immense care, and one wrong move can be devastating.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Agent, reply 5
Here's a dirty little secret:  real-time strategy games (including Sins, at least the way it is played online) aren't strategy games, they are tactical games.  What matters most is "micro," not "macro," and they are all clickfests.  Even Sins, which is said by many to be a slow game, is way too much of a tactical clickfest for me.  I've watched pro-level Sins players - even being in the same room with them while they are playing.  In almost all cases, what matters most isn't any strategic decision-making at all, rather it is their ability to "micro."  I literally saw a Sins pro (I was sitting in the same room with him) go into a system with literally a handful of ships (a few skirantras, a marauder, a couple minelayers, and some subverters), and destroy several hundred ships from 2 different players allied against him, and the players allied against him weren't bad players.  All he did was micro out the ying yang, and abuse everything for its maximum potential.
Was I impressed?  No, I wasn't.  I don't think that kind of thing should be "allowed" by a game.  By all rights and measures, he should have been utterly crushed.  But it was he who utterly crushed.
Most Sins players I know of think that Sins is a strategy game.  You can play it that way if you are sitting in your room, playing against the AI.  But multiplayer online, Sins is as far from a strategy game as you can get.  I differ with Darvin on this point.
As far as the Koreans go, I'd much rather be off banging one of my girlfriends than working on my APM.  I could just care less about click speed determining whether I win or lose.  Chess isn't about physical speed, why should Sins or any other "strategy" game be?

Well, they're called real-time strategy games.  If you don't like real-time, there are a lot of other options - for instance, Civ V is coming out this September(assuming you're not dissuaded by Steamworks).

With regards to the scenario you mentioned - how were the two attacking players managing their units.  Generally, a defeat of that magnitude is the result of poor management from the losers, not some extraordinary feat from the winning side.  If the losing side carelessly ran their fleets into mines, all that shows is that they were careless.  If their fleets had a glaring deficiency, then they should have used macro - yes, macro - to build a more balanced fleet.  And if the winner had a much superior defensive position but less planets, they shouldn't have thrown away their fleet when they could have just waited it out.

And do you really think a game is fun if the outcome is predetermined as soon as one player gains an advantage.  There needs to be a way for a player who's behind to come back, and a player who's ahead shouldn't be allowed to get careless without being punished for it.  We've all probably seen the AI uselessly lose humongous amounts of units be carelessly throwing them into a starbase - and it should - if managing your units isn't rewarded by the game, why allow it in the first place?

There are numerous aspects to solid play - using recon to know what your opponent is doing, planning your strategy to defend against what your opponent might be doing, then executing your strategy by building the right units and managing them correctly.  All of these are core components to being good at real-time strategy.  Having a bigger fleet is just part of what you need to win - you also need to counter your opponent's units, maintain a flow of reinforcements, continue upgrades/research, and use your army advantage to keep your opponent on less planets than you.  The core issue is that these allies were unprepared for their opponent's fleet, not that they didn't click as fast.

Reply #9 Top

And do you really think a game is fun if the outcome is predetermined as soon as one player gains an advantage. There needs to be a way for a player who's behind to come back, and a player who's ahead shouldn't be allowed to get careless without being punished for it.

There shouldn't have been a way for those two players to have lost this engagement (a couple hundred ships vs. a handful).  Period.

Your "there needs to be a way for a player who's behind to come back" makes sense if we are talking being outnumbered by 25%, 50%, or even 100%.  All reasonable to debate.  This situation?  It was simply one person's ability to micro out the ying yang far and above the other two players' ability, or anyone else's for that matter, barring JohnJames.  It was beyond absurd and ridiculous.

Reply #10 Top

LOL, any regular person will never need that kind of APM to be decent at RTS. If you want to be a pro, than yea, just like you better have ridiculous control on your fastball. Throwing 100 mph doesn't make you great, just like having 300 apm can be useless. You have to put it to good use.

Also, tactics is a part of strategy. Bad tactics = bad strategy.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Agent, reply 9

And do you really think a game is fun if the outcome is predetermined as soon as one player gains an advantage. There needs to be a way for a player who's behind to come back, and a player who's ahead shouldn't be allowed to get careless without being punished for it.

There shouldn't have been a way for those two players to have lost this engagement (a couple hundred ships vs. a handful).  Period.

Your "there needs to be a way for a player who's behind to come back" makes sense if we are talking being outnumbered by 25%, 50%, or even 100%.  All reasonable to debate.  This situation?  It was simply one person's ability to micro out the ying yang far and above the other two players' ability, or anyone else's for that matter, barring JohnJames.  It was beyond absurd and ridiculous.

If those two players had used solid unit compositions and spread their forces out to better resist mines and subverters - which frankly isn't that hard - then their opponent could not have stopped him.  Heck, with the composition you described, spread out, kiting carriers would have easily crushed the aforementioned units.  Instead, these guys went in without any real effort to counter what their opponent had, and lost.  If you want to win against decent opponents in an RTS, you should at least be able to perform basic maneuvers to avoid the spells your opponent can field.

Reply #12 Top

In Korea, the high schools have school sponsor extra curriculum activity on how to get good at star craft.  It has become on the same footing as sports.  And..if you are good, you can compete with the pros and make 6 digit figures.  They even have school team competition.   Shame we don't have such things in North America.  

Reply #13 Top

We do have the same thing, but for sports and not Starcraft.  Perhaps if tens of millions of Americans would gather to watch people play Starcraft or Sins of a Solar Empire and it became a national pastime, then high schools might start Starcraft and Sins clubs.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Agent, reply 9

And do you really think a game is fun if the outcome is predetermined as soon as one player gains an advantage. There needs to be a way for a player who's behind to come back, and a player who's ahead shouldn't be allowed to get careless without being punished for it.
There shouldn't have been a way for those two players to have lost this engagement (a couple hundred ships vs. a handful).  Period.

Your "there needs to be a way for a player who's behind to come back" makes sense if we are talking being outnumbered by 25%, 50%, or even 100%.  All reasonable to debate.  This situation?  It was simply one person's ability to micro out the ying yang far and above the other two players' ability, or anyone else's for that matter, barring JohnJames.  It was beyond absurd and ridiculous.

Two guys with a couple hundred ships couldn't take down three capital ships and a couple support ships?  I'd like to see the replay of that!  Were they retarded or something?  Were these fleets composed of scouts or flaks?  I tend to think that if you have 300 ships fighting the small fleet you describe that if you cannot beat that you deserve to lose.  It almost sounds as though they tried to hump a Marza with a missile barrage.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting DirtySanchezz, reply 14




Two guys with a couple hundred ships couldn't take down three capital ships and a couple support ships?  I'd like to see the replay of that!  Were they retarded or something? 

 

It is Agent of Kharma we are talking about.  It is entirely possible he....lets say.... exaggerated a wee bit.  And it is likely the answer to your question at any rate is yes.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #16 Top

No exaggeration.  One of the two "retards" (not my word for him) is a fairly well-known name on these formus, and plays well (not a pro, but plays well).  It was not "Swordsalmon," but someone along that caliber of name, probably a few more posts than that guy.  I will not speak the name because I don't want to embarrass the guy.

Again, I don't fault that guy, nor his ally.  I fault the game mechanic which allows this.

Reply #17 Top

Subverters and minelayers are a rough combination but the killing of 2 overwhelming fleets with them is still a little hard to swallow.  It would take massive stupidity or extenuating circumstances that were not mentioned or both to destroy several hundred ships against a handfull of caps and a few smattering of subs and minelayers.  Indeed if they lost that then they deserve to lose.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #18 Top

Micro and Macro are both important.  Many are won my Micro, especially early in the game.  Many are won my Macro, especially later in the game.  I will admit the speed of Sins has gotten progressively faster since it first arrived.  Quick Start, Alloy Speed Boost, and the new Faster speed settings have made it a faster paced game, but it still doesn't play as fast as most RTS once the game settles in and fleets start to grow up.  My least favorite part of the game where it races is the first 10-15 minutes where I do find it hard to micro my fleet as much as I would like.

Reply #19 Top

Subverters and minelayers are a rough combination but the killing of 2 overwhelming fleets with them is still a little hard to swallow.

I admit that I didn't count the ships, so when I said "couple hundred," I really have no way of knowing how true that particular statement is.  But the grav well was essentially filled with 2 enemy allied fleets from 2 different players - "2 overwhelming fleets" as you said.  It was late game, so....

There was a lot of kiting of the pro's small "fleet" (handful of ships) using the marauder.  It was probably a very high level marauder, and in fact there may have been two of them (can't remember).  I do remember that the marauder or marauders essentially had distort gravity on the entire time.  That leads me to believe they were either high level, or there were more than one (or both).

I kept telling the pro "this is a joke... YOU HAVE NO FLEET" (and he didn't).  He kept lecturing me, saying he didn't need a fleet, and that "most people think you need big huge fleets but you don't, you just need micro."

The pro is a "known pro" on these forums.  Not as famous of a name as JJ or Cykur, but if I said the name, everyone would say "ohh... THAT guy."  The other dude was just a decent (non-pro) player, who also posts here.  The third guy, I didn't recognize his screenname, and have no idea who he was.

Reply #20 Top

Please tell us the name of this studly pro.  I want to know who was able to pull off such a feat!

Reply #21 Top

You're DT.  I'm guessing you've seen similar feats already.  Perhaps not DT against DT, but certainly a decent DT against a non-DT?

I'm basically saying it's probably not all that surprising.  One guy was a micro-oriented guy similar to a JohnJames type, and the other two guys were just "okay" players.

Reply #22 Top

Though I'm no where near that, I do enjoy Starcraft 2 a lot, I'm currently in the beta and I have a lot of fun and I'm faily good at it too. However, I do get distracted by the battles themselves and watching them play out haha that's why I like soase because I can sit back and watch this massive scale battles unfold and I can just sit back and watch whereas in more micro intensive rts, if you were to take the time to watch a battle, you'll be way behind your opponent who didn't and just let it happen while he macros.