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The Push for a Supported Community Patch

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The Push for a Supported Community Patch

from Sins Forums

This has already been somewhat talked about on several other threads, but I think it is time to centralize the promotional and administrative efforts of this project here. It is pretty clear that Sins is nearing the end of its supported patches (or is at the end), but that doesn't have to be a bad thing. In fact for active modders, this is the time for mods to truly be completed as we no longer have to worry about game updates making our work obsolete. But ask anyone who has played multiplayer and they will tell you there is still a long way to go.

Thus I think we need to plan, create, and push a patch, created by the community, but just as official as another update (likely meaning available via Impulse). This seems to already being done by another Stardock game, Demigod, but in fact our job is technically much easier. Virtually all the balance problems can be fixed with changes to the data files, which are substantially easier to modify and distribute than changing the source code.

So for the plan. First of all we need a system for deciding what needs to be fixed and how so. In other words, we need a form of showing consensus. I will post my ideas later, but this patch will never appear if we don't agree on something. We also need to find out if Ironclad is in fact planning another patch for the game, in which case we will simply hold our efforts until it is released and we undoubtedly find other things that should probably be changed.

The create part is already under way, with ideas for what a community patch might contain already being discussed here. The actual implementation will need volunteers to create a mod that makes the agreed on balance changes, as well as people to test them, but I doubt that will be all that difficult. We also need to decide if we will only make patches for Diplomacy (the final version of the game), or for all three versions of Sins, and get people to port changes for both where relevant.

The push part will need to involve promoting the patch to other members of the community and at least Stardock (preferably Ironclad as well, after we find out if they are done with official patches). I believe there is a decent chance of getting it accepted, given that Stardock has allowed it with Demigod, but we need to show that we are a dedicated and responsible enough community to handle it, given we are asking them to support changes to one of their most successful products.

I will edit this post as needed to handle any further needs that may arise.

83,709 views 38 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top

You should make a mod that is made from scratch. Take ideas and implement them, and then post the mod. Try several different combinations of buffs and nerfs and changes. If anything works especially well post the idea and then add it permanently into the mod. If the mod has enough changes and the game is found to be perfectly balanced, maybe Ironclad would take the ideas and make them into a patch.(unlikely I know)

I am volunteering for any modding needed within my bounds of expertise.

Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting DesConnor, reply 20
Demigod has so much potential, you've got a limited number of maps and demigods with a variety of combinations that should make for great play, it's just a pity that the game has remained so skewed for so long and some of the stuff available is so poor compared to the items taken by experienced players.  It's my big problem with Stardock, they can produce games that seem interesting and look good and then suffer from some really crass balance issues, for far too long.  Perhaps its a playtest problem.  One aspect of Demigod that stuck out, though, is that there was a list of proposed changes before the 1.2(?) offered for discussion so that the community had a say, and the patch was then extensively revised to take account of what was said.  That's true community involvement. 

Online, the majority are of the opinion that Scramble Bombers was boosted too much and that the phase missile upgrade is easily the best.  Also, many players are reluctant to build LF as they are considered ineffective- and often won't build them even in the face of heavy flak or carrier spams.  More importantly, there is a huge list of techs that are never used or almost never used. 

The point is that I shouldn't get an easy win from someone who has a good grasp of the game.  Also, to become better at the game only requires the qualities you list- some dedication, a willingness to accept defeat by better players to learn from them, and an element of sincerity, not blaming your own poor play on poor balance.  Also, you needn't fear another loss to Vasari, as I don't play Vasari in 1.19/1.05/1.01.

By playing 1v1 you will gain new insight into balance, and become aware of new strategies, and old supposedly nerfed ones.  Here's a fairly straightforward balance question- are Advent considered weak only if they don't use Repulse, or are they still weak even with Repulse?  To answer it you would need to have seen a good player handle a 'battleball'.  Then you might want to amplify your comments on Illuminators from the experience.  Have you experienced much starbase play?  Pacts?  A focus on capital ships is typical of newer players.

I'm not looking for an easy win, I play to discover whether other players have any strategies or ideas to contribute, that I could add to my game.  I play pros when they let me.  I also watch and comment on replays, for the same reason.  If you decide you want a game, just tell me when you're available.   

umm... lol? Demigod has fantastic balance. It's imperfect, but it's pretty damn good. It had it from the get go and there have only been a handful of abusive bugs and strategies since the games release. Most of the "abuses" (Heart of Life) really weren't that big of a deal because they were commonly available to every player on each team. 

Also, Demigod has had 3 patches from GPG. Three. The rest were from Stardock fixing networking code (which was admirable and new builds were released almost daily during that rough time). I wished that we got 16 patches in one year! 

It's also made by GPG. Stardock just was the publisher. 

The only point me and Pacov wanted to make out is that community balance-fix mods can be adopted but it's very difficult to get community backing for balance patches. Some players tried to rally to change certain aspect of the game's meta to change but it's hard to get the community behind that to use it. 

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top

What does the opti-mod change graphic wise other than the planets, and skybox's that we know need fixing, but havent had the free time to do yet?

The purpose of the optimod was to fix many bugs IC had, and to reduce the memory load so that sins doesnt hit 2 gigs, and crash. One of the problems was a memory leak caused by sins searching for textures, and files that didnt exist. Others included fixing typos in the mesh, and particle files.

The mod was made so that the community (and IC themselves) can study it, and/or use it as a "foundation" for a true bug fix patch. You dont have to use all of the mod. Obviously some of the optimod still needs work. The mod was originally made to be used as a proof of concept to Ironclad. As an example of what can be done to fix Sins, because Vanilla Sins IS broken, and the opti mod did indeed fix it. So in a sense the opti mod IS the community bug fix patch. I specifically stated in the readme of the mod that the community is more than welcome to learn from it, and use it for whatever purpose they see fit. I cant see no better purpose than this.

As far as balancing that is another subject for someone better qualified.

 

Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top

So, the Optimization Mod also reduces minidumps?

Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/378149

TL;DR:

Sins optimization mod reduces some texture sizes to save memory (thus preventing the 2-gig threshold dump) and prevents a scenario that could cause a memory leak.  Currently the only major problem is some distortion around the poles of a planet.

Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top

As balance in Demigod is outside the scope of this thread we'll just have to disagree.  A game that has a limited number of maps, all symmetrical, and the vast majority of game items available to all characters will always have some balance.  However, that doesn't mean that the items are balanced.  As for the characters, I'm led to believe that a team of three Oaks would be hard to defeat by any combination of the others, with perhaps one or two exceptions.  Another aspect of Demigod that might usefully be translated is that the community have an informal rule that a team should be comprised of different characters.  Obviously with only three factions, this can't be applied to 4s and 5s, but the one or two extra slots could perhaps be random?

Would it be possible to have a separate [BUG] thread with details of the memory leak issue and the typos?  It would obviously be preferable to have these fixed by an official patch.  Also, many players seem wary of downloading custom content from anywhere other than this site.  Though stuff posted to it does take a while to appear, the download section of this site seems underused.

What you miss when you don't set up the test process before altering the game is that you haven't established standards by which to gauge what you are doing.   The point of pre-alteration testing is as much to settle the balance within the group of testers and the methods to be used as much as to test the current balance of the game itself.  If changes have to come before testing, I consider that the best approach to a community patch would be to make a very few changes first of all to the most broken elements of the game and then begin to test.  Then you can add further alterations later.  If you thoroughly alter the game, then expect the better players to help you test your mod, you might end up like the players who hang out on ICO waiting for someone to play them on their great map they just made.

A good community patch will begin with the setting up of a test group and their input, rather than starting with major alterations to the game.   

Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Major, reply 28
What does the opti-mod change graphic wise other than the planets, and skybox's that we know need fixing, but havent had the free time to do yet?

The purpose of the optimod was to fix many bugs IC had, and to reduce the memory load so that sins doesnt hit 2 gigs, and crash. One of the problems was a memory leak caused by sins searching for textures, and files that didnt exist. Others included fixing typos in the mesh, and particle files.

The mod was made so that the community (and IC themselves) can study it, and/or use it as a "foundation" for a true bug fix patch. You dont have to use all of the mod. Obviously some of the optimod still needs work. The mod was originally made to be used as a proof of concept to Ironclad. As an example of what can be done to fix Sins, because Vanilla Sins IS broken, and the opti mod did indeed fix it. So in a sense the opti mod IS the community bug fix patch. I specifically stated in the readme of the mod that the community is more than welcome to learn from it, and use it for whatever purpose they see fit. I cant see no better purpose than this.

As far as balancing that is another subject for someone better qualified.
 

I apologize if I was off the mark here, as I do not use the optimization mod as it for the most part has been unnecessary for me.  I did read a couple of remarks from people that were not really happy about certain aspects (not including the ones you describe) like on this thread.

Also as of right now DesConnor, I am not trying to alter the game. I am trying to create an agreed on way to show consensus (so far impossible in this community on balance issues, except for the most obviously broken things) once we get into the testing phase you describe.

Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top

I dont understand why he thinks there is particle degradation. Most see no visible difference in the particle effects at all. Which was our goal. We tried to do the same with the planets, and skybox's, but that is where i failed, and that is what needs work from a better texture artist than me.

Don't take my word for it though. Test it, see for yourself, and be your own judge. If you dont like it thats cool. If anyone knows a better way then we are all ears. Say something. Thats what the community is for.

Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top

Don't stress, Stress... The Optimization mod will most likely be as popular, if not more used than a balance mod.  No one likes late game lag.

But on the topic of balance, I do agree something must be done to help out the caps in the game.  And the LRF spam needs to be dissolved.  I liked the scout counter a few patches back, cause far more stratigies were used then.  I will gladly test and aid in what ways I can on a balance mod.  I'm all about making this game the best it can be.

 

Skills for hire include,

3D modeling

Texturing (models, 2d, effects, ect)

Eventually Importing and weapon/ability load outs for Ship/Starbase models.

And a good, unbiased testing method for balance :thumbsup:

Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top

Would it be possible to have a separate [BUG] thread with details of the memory leak issue and the typos?

I agree...this is entirely different from attempts to balance the game...separating the two increases the odds that at least the typo/bug changes will be adopted, and hopefully in an official form...those of you who are interested and capable of this should try to get a thread started ASAP...the more organized and productive community efforts are, the more likely such changes will be adopted and gain support...

I am trying to create an agreed on way to show consensus (so far impossible in this community on balance issues, except for the most obviously broken things) once we get into the testing phase you describe.

Hopefully we'll have something to test soon...I think once we have something to test and know how many and who is testing it, we're more likely to be able to form a decision-making process...

Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting DesConnor, reply 31


Would it be possible to have a separate [BUG] thread with details of the memory leak issue and the typos?  It would obviously be preferable to have these fixed by an official patch. 

Mesh Points - Bad Names and Missing Points for Sins Ships is a good start. Any more added and I will change the name of the thread

Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top

I suspect there probably will be at least one more patch, but we do need confirmation one way or another before we go through with this.

By all means, don't wait for the devs to do anything before starting a community patch.  You've waited for years for the game to be balanced.  You will wait years more if you intend to wait on the devs.  There is no reason to believe that some "next patch" (if there is one) will go any further towards balancing the game than previous patches.  If we want to balance the game with a community patch, we might as well get started.