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Hello to all and quick question

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Hello to all and quick question

from Elemental Forums

Hi all,

This is my first post on the forums. I just pre-ordered the game based on my experience with GC2 an SoSE, in addition to the serious efforts the devs put in involving the community with the game's development. Stardock doesn't get anywhere near the recognition it deserves, IMHO. In many ways, they're the gold standard of the industry.

On to my question. I just read the "Elemental for Dummies" thread and was wondering if tactical combat is still expected to be as described. Sounds to me like it will be a lot like the TW games (which I adore). Have there been any fundamental changes ? Can we still expect large battles involving thousands of troops ?

elemental
19,607 views 36 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Have faith in the :frogboy:   little ones. If turn based flops we will see a swift change in combat before release. It is a simple matter as we already have the mechanics for both WEGO and continuous turns built into the infrastructure. Debate before trial is useless in this case.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

You see, I prefer no abstraction.  If it were possible, I would say have the game track every particle and its interactions.

If chess or go can offer strategic depth, then what kind of depth could a perfect simulation achieve?  I mean think how much more in-depth real life wars are than chess.

A perfect simulation would require much more thought than a simple game of chess.  Too bad such a thing is not technologically possible.

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Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bill_Door, reply 27
You see, I prefer no abstraction.  If it were possible, I would say have the game track every particle and its interactions.

If chess or go can offer strategic depth, then what kind of depth could a perfect simulation achieve?  I mean think how much more in-depth real life wars are than chess.

A perfect simulation would require much more thought than a simple game of chess.  Too bad such a thing is not technologically possible.

Yes a perfect simulation where you play God would require a tad more thought than Chess, I agree.

But a real life battle or war is very chaotic and difficult for a human commander to strategically control. I doubt that many of us would find it fun, we want more control of the events.

 

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 26
If turn based flops we will see a swift change in combat before release.

Nop, the current turn/tile based system won't be changed before release. It was quite expensive for SD to change from the old system to the current one. Froggie was talking about this in the tactical combat topic. Also why should it flop? Just because X number of players are against the current battle system? I trust in the devs, not to mention that they surely didn't wanted to waste money with changing to a different system. They simply think that the change was necessary, because the game is more fun with the new system.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

[quote who="Saeter" reply="25" id="2646561"]


Quoting gapper4,
reply 21


Again, I guess it's a personal matter; I just want to feel like I'm commanding a battle, not playing chess with my old uncle.



Now we're getting somewhere. Yes it is a personal matter of taste, the question is how much abstract you want the battle experience to be.

TW is hardly like realistically commanding a battle, it is simplified so that you can grasp details, see results quite well, analyse, issue specific commands, and the troops actually try to do what you want. You can even pause time to consider options! Still, for most people it feels more strategic than a realistic battle simulator would be.

Turn/tile based is even more simplified (abstract), making the details, results, choices and commands even clearer. This actually makes deeper strategic thinking possible, since it is easier for the logical mind to grasp and analyse.

Chess is a very abstract and simple battle system, but with incredible strategic depth.

The game "Go" is even simpler than Chess, but more strategic, if you should believe those that play it. Personally even I find Go too "dry".

But I do love playing chess with my uncle!

 
[/quote

Yes, "dryness" is a good way of putting it. TW battles feel organic. You really get the feeling that, once you've given an order, it's being carried out by troops, not some static game units occupying a tile. Ultimately, of course, it's much more simple than a real battle, but it strikes an excellent compromise between playability and abstraction. It's more "immersive" I guess is what I'm trying to say. In the final analysis, we'll see what Stardock come up with. They haven't disappointed me so far.  

 

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

why not just make it so that in multiplayer(or both single as well) there is an option to play the game as RT or TB tactical battles. This way insane players like me that like to take "days" on one move can do TB and for those that have limited time and want to do fast battles in multiplayer have a RT battle with all its chaos and glory of fun.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TarponCrest, reply 31
why not just make it so that in multiplayer(or both single as well) there is an option to play the game as RT or TB tactical battles. This way insane players like me that like to take "days" on one move can do TB and for those that have limited time and want to do fast battles in multiplayer have a RT battle with all its chaos and glory of fun.

Things like counterspells in combat can't work the same way in RT as they do in turn based, it just won't make sense. A lot of mechanics rely on the underlying combat system for their implementation, having both types would require a considerable amount of work.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 32

Quoting TarponCrest, reply 31why not just make it so that in multiplayer(or both single as well) there is an option to play the game as RT or TB tactical battles. This way insane players like me that like to take "days" on one move can do TB and for those that have limited time and want to do fast battles in multiplayer have a RT battle with all its chaos and glory of fun.
Things like counterspells in combat can't work the same way in RT as they do in turn based, it just won't make sense. A lot of mechanics rely on the underlying combat system for their implementation, having both types would require a considerable amount of work.

 

oh... Well things can't ever be just simple as 1,2,3. oh well thanks for the info.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 32



Quoting TarponCrest,
reply 31
why not just make it so that in multiplayer(or both single as well) there is an option to play the game as RT or TB tactical battles. This way insane players like me that like to take "days" on one move can do TB and for those that have limited time and want to do fast battles in multiplayer have a RT battle with all its chaos and glory of fun.


Things like counterspells in combat can't work the same way in RT as they do in turn based, it just won't make sense. A lot of mechanics rely on the underlying combat system for their implementation, having both types would require a considerable amount of work.

Yep, so...modding! ;)

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 32



Quoting TarponCrest,
reply 31
why not just make it so that in multiplayer(or both single as well) there is an option to play the game as RT or TB tactical battles. This way insane players like me that like to take "days" on one move can do TB and for those that have limited time and want to do fast battles in multiplayer have a RT battle with all its chaos and glory of fun.


Things like counterspells in combat can't work the same way in RT as they do in turn based, it just won't make sense. A lot of mechanics rely on the underlying combat system for their implementation, having both types would require a considerable amount of work.

Don't know about that. Have you played King Arthur: The Role-Playing Wargame ? You have magical heroes leading regular troops. They use spells and counter-spells while the troops slog it out. It works just fine -- again, with the pause / issue orders.

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting gapper4, reply 35



Quoting Tridus,
reply 32



Quoting TarponCrest,
reply 31
why not just make it so that in multiplayer(or both single as well) there is an option to play the game as RT or TB tactical battles. This way insane players like me that like to take "days" on one move can do TB and for those that have limited time and want to do fast battles in multiplayer have a RT battle with all its chaos and glory of fun.


Things like counterspells in combat can't work the same way in RT as they do in turn based, it just won't make sense. A lot of mechanics rely on the underlying combat system for their implementation, having both types would require a considerable amount of work.



Don't know about that. Have you played King Arthur: The Role-Playing Wargame ? You have magical heroes leading regular troops. They use spells and counter-spells while the troops slog it out. It works just fine -- again, with the pause / issue orders.

Yes it works very well in a pausable RTS as well. While we are at it -> news about the King Arthur expansion.