As Sins has shown, there will be pirates even when we colonize space. As Sins has shown, they are UNSTOPPABLE.

Pirates have badges of honor when they crack a supposedly "Uncrackable Game". There is even VPN (virtual private networks) which allow people to play hacked games in a large community. This will get a lot more popular the more developers take control. People that would have never thought of DLing a stolen game will switch sides.

Edit: I also don't want to update unless I wish to. Sum updates wreck the game. I do not want Free Crap thrown in.

Apparently steam will need to be running in the background, even when offline for an offline single-player game.

2K Elizabeth:

"As for Steam, yes, it will be running, because it works with the game. I am confident that Steam will not slow down your game (even in late game periods.) We're building Civ with Steam - and we don't want the game to slow down at any point, period."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9176392&postcount=535

That's how Steam works since it first started in 2003. What's the news?

Oh geez, lessee now...

Could it be that to play -- not validate an install but merely play -- a single-player offline game we're now expected to blithely accept the requirement of running unnecessary third-party software?

Could it be how far the goalposts are being moved?

Could it be how this is not for the benefit of players but for the benefit of 2k and at our expense -- because if they truly believed steam was a 'benefit we'll enjoy' it would be optional?

Or could it be that your question is deliberately obtuse?

Delivering Civ5 via steam as one buying option -- ok.

Requiring a one-time online activation of a steam DD installation -- ok.

Requiring steam running the the background to merely play a single-player offline game, especially one that was bought in a B&M store and installed via DVD -- not ok.

This ain't rocket science...

This has been confirmed as possible by Dennis Shirk (Producer) a number of times.  He cited CivFanatics, WePlayCiv and Apolyton as sites to visit for the majority of fan mods.

I think this is the overall feelings of everyone arguing against this development.  First party titles aside, I like choice and I like flexibility - this is why I own a PC to begin with.  Why are people in favour of trading all the benefits of a PC away?  So their shortcuts are in one location?  Really?


Quote of the day.


You're exhibiting a little much common sense there Brad, please proceed to your nearest education center for re-processing.

Seriously though, this is pretty much where my confusion comes from as well.  Because we'll never know the details behind the deal with 2K and Valve, we can only use the details at hand to figure it out.  From what I can see, Valve must have given 2K a really really really really ridiculously sweet deal, almost to the point of 2K second guessing Valve's motives.  They're locking out all other Digitial Distribution platforms with this deal and thus restricting their player base to retail purchases or Valve customers.  Valve are clearly attempting to piggy back into new PCs off of the biggest name releases they can get theirs hand on; Civilisation is simply the name in turn based strategy, and scoring it as an exlcusive is an absolute win for Valve in terms of expanding their customer base.  I bet more than a few bottles of bubbly were opened at Valve's offices the day that contract was signed.


This is really down to the game itself.  Some games on Steam, like KotoR for example, can't be modded without replacing the executible file itself because Steam quickly checks the file information for the game at launch.  To be able to play the game in Widescreen, for example, you need to crack the execute file; Steam treats the modifications needed to get Widescreen working as some kind of unwanted exploit and simply prevents the game from running.  You can only Mod what they want you to mod, and I didn't buy a PC to be told what to do with it.  The fact that I have to mess around Steam's file to circumvent it's protection to then update my game which I legally purchased shows me the system fundamentally flawed.

On the issue of the licensing of software, it's an interesting area of the Law.  I myself was a Law Clerk for a few years (now an Accounts Clerk) so I have a little understanding - at least in Australia - of how it works.  Essentially, the End User License Agreement, known as EULA, is entered into voluntarily by the parties - you and the company - which then details all of the restrictions placed upon both parties in mutual agreement.  You'll note, however, that there is no standard EULA or set of restrictions as there is in the film industry.  All films are protected under what the Law considered fair restrictions.  The EULA however allows a company to place additional restrictions outside of what the Law has established as a 'right' on either party - in this case the person who purchased the game.  All that is required to make the agreement binding is a sign of agreement - for games, it's simply playing the game and for application its using the software.  Playing or using means that you've read the game EULA and agree to it, and thus are then bound by the terms of the agreement, or EULA.  This allows them the legal manouvering to make things like licensing a purchased product with additional restriction which aren't protected by law legal and binding, like DRM and limited number of installs.  There is really nothing they can't put in the EULA, because you enter into voluntarily.  I believe a game seller, as an April Fools joke, put an immortal soul clause into their EULA - if the law acknowledged the existance of the soul, it would've actually been legally binding.  Such is the wonderful world of the EULA.

Just to point out that US case law is only relevant in the US.  Every country has their own copyright laws, and most are based off the Berne Convention which dictates the minimum base level of copyright law required by signatories.  One such condition is that the copyright law jurisdiction is applied where the copyright material is used, not created.  Thus for me, Australian copyright law applies (and for you I assume US copyright law).

In 2006 Australian copyright law was amended in response to the US-AUS FTA.  One of the amendments strengthened anti-circumvention laws, for the first time making it illegal in Australia to circumvent technical measures used by copyright owners to protect access to their works, and expanding the measures which count as technological protection measures which may not be circumvented.  In other words, how copyright holders apply control over individual copies of their work (DRM and other methods).  The legal exceptions only cover recording of TV and radio for later personal viewing, and format-shifting media (transferring from one legally owned device to another, such as from CD to PC to iPod).  However the exception only applies when all formats are legally owned by the same individual.  Apple tested this law and failed, trying to protect Aussies shifting iTunes Store music onto CD's.

Note also that Australia applies 'fair dealing' which is not the same as the US 'fair use' exceptions.  Australia's exceptions list is not open-ended like the US where there is a three-point test to apply exception.  Under Australian copyright law it is assumed a breach UNLESS covered by 'fair dealing' (which is a very narrow list such as journalism, legal requirement, satire and a couple of others).  Thus all exclusive rights of the copyright holder apply (as opposed to the US where all exclusive rights of the owner of copyright material applies).

So in Australia, copyright holders legally control use of copyright material.

EXACTLY!

Like the Civ Fanatics HOF mod.  After a patch it's usually 2-4 weeks at least before the HOF mod is updated for the new patch as they test thing to either work with new features of the patch and to make sure things aren't broken.

 

You guys go deep into a subject and manage to stay on subject.  I'll have to return more often!

 

Sorry off topic, back to it chaps!

 

You can turn off autoupdate...

 

I guess I really just don't understand the "we don't like it because we want choices - I just don't want it installed on my computer," position.  It seems so...trivial.  Unless there's a specific problem with the service (such as the autoupdate misunderstanding posted above), I just don't understand why someone would think it's such an inconvenience that 21 megs of ram is being taken up by another program.  Saying "it just is, I don't want it" reminds me of being back in highshool.  The "Steam is not valuable to me, I'll never use those features" argument seems a bit - well, self centered.  Okay, so - you don't have to use the extra features.  To say the whole system should topple down and any attempt to come up with a  dedicated community center that aims to benefit the whole community should be demolished, well, that's a bit much.  

 

Things could be so much worse with DRM, and when a company turns around and includes features that actually benefit the player (unlimited downloads, proposed community integration, no disk, etc etc), it just boggles the mind when gamers complain.  But what I absolutely don't get, is when features outside of the game are what stop people from purchasing it.  Sorry but I plan to spend most of my time in  game, not ogling my task manager in awe of how efficient it's running. 

Anyway, I don't think it's worth continuing this discussion with me.  It seems the antisteam stance is either fear against a proposed future monopoly, speculation about charged DLC/features, a supercharged desire to have a choice in the all important "which service will I use with my videogame" question, or a Task Manager watcher who would rather watch the processes screen than their game.  

 

Life is too short.  I'm gonna go spend time with my wife and once Civ 5 comes out I'll jump on that.  Hopefully I'll see a SINS 2 soon, and thanks for contributing to this Brad, you're definitely one of a kind and it's interesting getting your take on this.  You guys are one of the few companies I gladly fork over my money to.   

It's quite simply because you MUST use Steam.  There is no other option.  There are many other solutions that allow choice of client, or even no client at all.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it.

Those who don't want steam are likewise entitled to that same consideration.  That you don't understand their opinion is irrelevant. 

 

It's a *single player game*.  What "community" is needed?  Nothing.  So don't make me install junk that I and the vast majority of Civ players, which are single player, do not want or need.

Include Steamworks as an option for those that want it.  Awesome.  But don't *force* us to install junk we don't need.

Here is the difference....all you twitchy FPS guys love and want those features.  But that is not the core audience that plays Civ games.  Not even close.  Core Civ players are typically older and just play single player.  So don't force FPS style "community" features on a game that won't need or use it.

Firaxis run a survey on their website a couple years ago focused on this.  They found that the majority of players didn't know that a fan community and mods existed for Civ4, and would've checked it out if they had've known.

In one respect the addition of community features is a response to this, which IMO is a good thing showing the developer is listening to fans of the game and adjusting.  The implementation may not be the best solution, but at least give them credit for responding.  :)

. . .Wow.

 

So they sell it only over Steam. It's not like this sort of thing hasn't happened before. It's like the new Ubisoft DRM all over again.

 

If you don't like Steam, fine. Congratulations. I'm happy for you.

 

You can't install it, and leave it off 23/6 because you aren't playing the game at the time? Is this just elitism? Is this "OH NOEZ! TEH GUVURNMUNT IS STEALING MAH INFOEZ!"? What's the big problem with Steam? You have Impulse don't you? (No, I'm not going to read 12 pages.)

 

Brad, I'm rather disappointed in you. Why aren't you getting it? Because it's on Steam? A competing distribution platform? That's horsehockey and you know it.

 

I'm rather disappointed in the lot of you, skimming this thread.

 

Edits: That was a bit vehement, but I'm leaving it there unedited, because I still mean all of it.

 

So. Steam.

- Largest DDP in the known world. (Martians probably have a bigger one.)

- Has integrated support for the game you are playing, thousands (? I may be exaggerating here) of others and a large stable of features to 'enhance' your gaming experience.

- Must be running to run your game.

- Can be rather clunky and a system hog

 

Now, the first isn't a negative or a benefit. It just is.

The second, some of you seem to be contesting, is a negative. This is the part I don't get. Install it, never turn it on except for Civ 5. Be anti-social, don't use the friends function and etc etc etc. It's not taking up CPU, or leeching credit card info, or murdering small children if it's on your system.

The third I can understand being problematic, and yes, Impulse is magnificent for having this problem solved. It isn't the end of the world. It doesn't matter that it's a single-player game. Stop saying that. That has no impact on the thing. It's part of the platform.

The fourth. . .I've learned to live with it, but it is a bit of a pain at times.

 

All in all, I fail to see the hullabaluu. You are adults, yes? Act like it, deal with the mud flung in your face and grin. Bear it. Use the platform despite it's problems. Enjoy the game you've been looking forward to for years.

 

 

Unfortunately there is a problem with the service. Empire: Total War was the first game I got that required steam to run, and thus the first time I put steam on my PC. It was quite a horrible experience. Some of it was the crappy launch of that game, but steam had its own fair share of problems. It took an unbelievably long time to install the game that I supposedly bought on the disk, the program was quite bulky and unresponsive (the RAM usage was never the problem), and the fact that I always had to have the thing running to play it just seemed to be yet another annoying routine to may daily computer problems. I should mention I haven't bothered to take it off Vista's stupid blocked start-up programs, that is how useless it is.

The contrast to how Impulse performed was quite revealing. While I got that program for Sins, it did not come bundled with the game (at least it didn't have to be installed), could be played without Impulse and was much quicker and responsive. Indeed, it did its job well enough so I no longer care that it is now running in the background by default.

Because thread skimming is a great, fair, factual way to readjust your opinion of someone right?

Wow, congratulations on knowing nothing about the argument.

Brad won't buy Civ5 because it directly supports Steam since you have to have Steam installed and in use to play Civ5. That would be like the CEO of Pepsi buying Coke products.

Most people who don't like Steam are fundamentally opposed to a program controlling my gaming. If I want to play a single player game I shouldn't have to phone home to do it.

I adjusted my previous post. Read a bit more of the thread. I still don't really get the major argument in play. I'm still a bit (lots) snappish in my revision of my post. I understand the 'directly supporting Steam' bit, but it still seems. . .eh. Maybe that's why I'm not a CEO at Trump (Insert Business Organization Word). Dunno. It remains that I really don't see the fuss.

 

This is why I think it's possible that 2K received financial incentive from Valve.  If that is the case, you might have grounds for a lawsuit under the Sherman Act.  Then again, it might be a suit where you'd lose by winning.

I'd definitely be looking into such.

 

That said, I can't see this being that good for the longtime civ players due to the mods issue, plus at least twice in Civ 4's lifetime, they released borked patches that had to be quickfixes.  BTS launch patcch being one of those.

 

I can see potential for a disasterpiece/rage at some point due to Steam.

Okay I keep trying to read the entire thread before I post but this one post made me take real exception.

Windows vrs Linux.

I have 3 PC's in my home. One for myself, one for my wife, and unfortunately one for my son and schoolwork because I won't let him touch mine.

All three machines are built by me. I ordered all the parts seperately and built the systems to the specs I wanted in my gaming platform. Of course after I had them built I needed an OS. So of course for what I use my computer for I choose window and the current version was Vista.

I went out and spent 200 dollars on the OS which the cost alone almost made me consider a different OS. But I bit the bullet and came home and installed Vista on my machine and my wives. But because of the damn interwebz and having to register on it. I could not use my copy on both my machines. Nevermind I spent 200 F*ing dollars on an overpriced operating system. Nevermind that as far as I am concerned this is my property now. I had to buy a second copy.

This made me decide I had finally had enough of Microsoft's Bullshit. So I looked into what it would take to go either Mac or Linux. after some time consuming research I figured out due to what i use my machine for. While the other two were options. they were not really acceptable options. Too be able to run the selection of items I demanded with the simplicity I demanded. It was either windows or nothing. So I was left with a very unpalatable choice, though it was really a dictate dressed up in a choice.

So yes while it is nice in theory that the market will correct itself, The fact of the matter is while the free market may be the best option out there, It is by no means a reliable option. With enough market share you can effectifely neutrilize a free markets ability to correct itself. You can conquer the market without ever truely consolidating a monopoly.

Yes I thouroghly Dislike the fact that due to the number of games I own Hard copies of. I have Steam, Impulse, Windows Live, and god knows whatever 3rd party crap I shouldn't be forced to have but am. But if i want to play anything at all I am forced to choose all or nothing.

And when the choices are all or nothing....

You really don't have a choice at all.

 

I must be blinde, because I looked over my posts and didn't see anywhere where i said otherwise. Hell i didn't even say you had to use US court cases. By the way, this bs ACTA is basically taking the worst bits of the US law (DMCA) and trying to spread it.

Yeah see you're still doing it. Your laws might be different but what you are saying is not different. Copyright holders in the USA don't loose control of copyright matieral they're supposed loose control of the copies, copies, copies, individual legal copies. They never loose control of the actual material unless they sell it or never owned it in the first place. And copyright law is counter to DMCA which is why the DMCA was poorly drafted and thrown through in the first place.

loose != lose

I was pointing out that the US case law you used to justify your position is not relevant in Australia, and actually is different to how it would've ended up in Australia.  I would advise reading up on the Berne Convention, WIPO, how both treaties were implemented in the US and how it differs to most countries who signed those treaties (and why it's different).

After reading up on the Berne and WIPO Treaties (implemented as DMCA in the US) you should understand a little more about how copyright law is implemented across the World and how our law can apply to US copyrighted material in my case (and as such why in Australia the copyright holder retains control over how the material can be used).

i cun spel evary woord rong und yoo stil cun reed und undarstand. Cun yoo corect Anel!

In Canada, we learned to read in context at grade six. Not everyone in your world speaks or writes perfect English. I still don't know when to use there, their or they're. Well they're is easy but I always mix up the 1st (too or to or two). Laugh Out Loud!

I didn't point to a specific case law, that was someone else. I support taking the approach which is not the same thing. I am familiar with Autocad, but again, i didnt bring it up.

Maybe you should read the thread a little better to understand how copyright law is handled in the USA since we are talking about US companies in this thread. You still can't even acknowledge the difference between what you claim to be saying, and what you are actually saying.