JOBS ILLEGALS WOULDN'T DO

In December of 1971 I got out of the Army after seven years active duty and three months Reserve. The "New Action Army" was to be made up of all volunteers. And a lot of the traditional controls and routines were being cast aside in favor of a more comfortable Army...comfortable for the pogues that drifted into it...not for those responsible for herding them. But that is grist for another mill. We left Fort Hood, Texas and moved to Phoenix, AZ. I am not sure what I expected, but it sure wasn't what I got.

My first job was as an instructor at the Arizona School of Driving. The school offered a 15-hour course of instruction. But not contracted; a student could quit at any time. It was the instructor's responsibility to keep selling the course so the student got the "full benefit" of it. Most people can pass a driving test after six or seven hours and see no need to do more. The school kept the first 23 1/2 hours of each week's take and the instructor got the rest. When you consider the scheduling difficulties, cancellations, and drop-outs, you could spend sixty or seventy hours trying to get your 23.5 hours in...and not earn a dime, either. Instructors learned to overbook and double-up and other techniques the school strictly forbade. It sucked. Inside of six months I became a senior instructor...a trainer...and the recipient of all the hard cases no one else wanted to train. I gave the school forty hours a week for nothing but kept everything I made on students beyond forty. Some deal, huh? It was like I was earning my living in my spare time.

I left there and went to work at Associated Grocers...a Co-Op warehouse operation that serviced Fry's, Lucky's, Smitty's and several other food sellers in the Valley of the Sun. I was a loading dock worker; a "temporary" non-union filler. I could only work three weeks out of a month without joining the Union, and only a select few were allowed to join. The pay was only about 3/4s of the union scale but it was still better than the driving school. It was beyond measure the hardest work I ever did in my life.

Every morning the boxcars would roll in on the railroad spur. Usually all but three or four of them would fit inside the warehouse. The rest would sit out in the sun. The dock extended out far enough that we could have easy access to them, but by nine o'clock the outside temperature would be closing in on triple digits and inside the boxcars that were out there the temperatures were unbelievable. Guess which cars the temporary dock workers got? We got on the clock at 7:00 am and almost ran to the outside cars in order to get them unloaded before the sun did its nasty work.

The job consisted of placing a pallet on the ground in front of the door of the boxcar, then stacking the boxes or bags that were in the boxcar onto the pallet. No space was wasted. Everything was packed tight. We had to pry the first row of boxes out; after that it usually went pretty smoothly. Kraft and Morton Salt cars were the absolute worst. The Kraft boxes were filled with commercial-sized jars of mayonaise, ketchup, and mustard. Or relish or pickles. The boxes were HEAVY... and in them days the jars were all glass...no dropsies. The Morton Salt cars were...well...heavy bags of salt. A bag of salt a little larger than your old-fashioned brown paper bag from the grocery store would weigh about fifty pounds. You had to start by reaching up high to grab a heavy box or bag, then bend over and place it on the pallet. And not just any old way, either. Each product had to be stacked a specific way...arranged on the pallet so as to "lock" the stack in place. You couldn't go above a certain height on each pallet. So learning to lock five bags and stacking them in four layers translates into a "five-tie four high"...or "eight-tie three high"...etc, etc, etc. Each layer had to be laid out the opposite of the layer below; that is how they "tied" together. Most of the products you could stack as many as three pallets high. So we started off lifting product from the top; after a little bit we were lifting and shifting at about the same level. Then as we worked to the bottom we were lifting from the floor of the boxcar and stacking above shoulder level on the pallet. We usually put two pallets next to each other and built them both up to the start of the second pallet, then used one as a step up to the other. When that one got to its full level a forklift would take it inside and we put another in its place, building one and then another that way until the car was empty. Every five minutes or so some jerk came by and yelled at us to go faster...threatening to fire us if we didn't step it up.

This was real "man's" work. I never heard OSHA mentioned in those days; there was no such thing as a "two-man lift" or "70 lbs max". I never saw a back-brace belt. If you couldn't lift a hundred-pound bag of salt or rice over your head, you need not apply. We could get into a rhythm and shuffle product pretty quickly once we got warmed up. And warming up didn't take long in those outside boxcars. If we were still working on the outside cars after nine am, life became a real misery...the inside temperature could reach 150 degrees.

My first day on the job wore me down pretty hard. I had salt-rime all over my shirt; and my boots, stylish Easy-Rider boots with the cool straps and rings and all, were not ideal for working on your feet all day. I barely made it through a shower and dinner before flopping on the bed. The next morning was unbelievable hell. Every joint and muscle was on fire. My feet were swollen and painful and I was barely able to get my boots on. I could hardly walk. But I went to work. It took an hour or more to work the aches and kinks out of the muscles and joints but the feet were not getting better. Walking was pure misery and lifting and shifting caused the fire to spread up my legs. That night I was even slower to the shower and bed. The third day I wasn't sure I would be able to get up at all. The boots were the worst part; the wrestling match to get them on caused so much pain I was afraid I would pass out. But they were the only hard shoes I owned and we weren't allowed to wear "tennies". The heat was unbearable; the days went on forever. The breaks - fifteen minutes in the morning and afternoon - were too short, lunchtime too long in coming and too soon over, and driving home too little of a relief.

Monday of the second week was almost like starting all over again, but by noon I was feeling pretty good. My feet hadn't started off swollen; the weekend had calmed that down and I was actually able to jump around on the pallets without tears. Surprisingly, Tuesday I was able to get up and get going without the moans and groans. On Wednesday I actually took part in the lunchtime discussion of the Summer Olympics, got curious enough to watch that night, and my family got hooked on the coverage. The third week I was finally getting in condition...feet, joints, muscles. I still came home sweated-out and sore. I still woke up hurting and tight. But not like the first week. The end of the third week they let me go. "Term Limits" for non-union temps. They told me I did okay, but they would not hire me back on for at least three weeks. So I went in search of something new.

I think that the job at Associated Grocers would qualify today as one of those that sympathizers would say "white people" won't do...so we need an illegal to do it. Funny thing was, there wasn't a single Hispanic person on that crew. In those days, Phoenix was not covered on every corner with a dozen off-the-books "day workers" (illegals). Every time ICE raids a company and runs off a dozen or a hundred or three hundred illegals, the jobs are almost immediately filled by legal Americans who want to work. RoseinArizona's post about the cost of illegals has some sobering dollar amounts, especially in the area of labor. I don't think there are any jobs Americans won't do...I know I have had my share of jobs that I really didn't want to do but all those littlies were addicted to food. I would dare to say that I have had a few jobs the illegals wouldn't do. The argument is not valid.

 

28,558 views 53 replies
Reply #1 Top

Back in college, I was taking any job that paid well (all manual, mostly no skill stuff).  I learned several things during that time.

1. 3 guys and a pallet jack can overload a Semi in less than a day.

2. Hush Puppies makes some great comfortable shoes!!!!!!  They just do not last more than a few months.

3.  Like you, there was no such things as work that an american would not do.

I am glad I use my brain now.  And fortunately, loading semi's was not a full time job, just a one week project for me.

But your story makes me wonder about one thing.  Who LOADED those box cars! (Probably in some more moderate climate at least).

Reply #2 Top

You know they didn't load themselves... :D

Reply #3 Top

Lol, hearing about this makes me think about my days at work now... Though I have to admit yes, we have a lot of crazy rules above us saying we can only work so long in such temperatures.. but honestly they are probably for the best.. and when you have been working 3 hours in 100+ degrees you never argue with a mando break.. LoL

Reply #4 Top

That be the truth, that be.

Reply #5 Top

Illegals ... first it was free black men, then anyone with Japanese ancestry, now hispanics and anyone wearing a beard.

If the United States is to be a supremacist state, then it deserves to be wiped off the face of the planet.

Bigotry and fascism disgusts me no end.  When you feel it is a crime for someone tobe allowed to work to feed their families purely because of their race or what side of a political boundary they were born, there is somethign seriously wrong with you ... unfortunately, a majority share that supremacist illness.

Reply #6 Top

Illegals ... first it was free black men, then anyone with Japanese ancestry, now hispanics and anyone wearing a beard.

If the United States is to be a supremacist state, then it deserves to be wiped off the face of the planet.

Bigotry and fascism disgusts me no end. When you feel it is a crime for someone tobe allowed to work to feed their families purely because of their race or what side of a political boundary they were born, there is somethign seriously wrong with you ... unfortunately, a majority share that supremacist illness.

Nice crock of shit, there.

Reply #7 Top

Nice foulmouth and dismissal of history repeating, there.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Chibiabos, reply 7
Nice foulmouth and dismissal of history repeating, there.

Nice comeback, there.

 

This isn't history repeating itself.  Being against illegal immigration isn't because we're racist, it's because if Mexico were to come into the US there would be zero jobs left for native-born US citizens who want them.  That wouldn't be fair.  I, for one, don't want to have to move to South America just to find work because South American citizens + outsourcing snatched up every available job.

$1000 will let you live like a king down there for a month.  I hazard to say that a large number of illegals are looking for more than to merely feed hungry families.

Besides, I like speaking English, thanks very much.

 

Also, you do realize that your statement is, in fact, an encouragement for illegals to break the law.  The law which ensures civil order and prevents the rise of an anarchic mob (mostly).  The law which is responsible for the prosperity which made the US appealing in the first place.

There is a method by which one can immigrate from South America to the US and be legally allowed to work.  In fact, beyond getting a green card it's not even difficult.

Yet you want us to ignore the fact that these people willfully break our laws, on grounds of "bigotry and fascism"?  Please.  Last time I checked, breaking the law got you jail time, not a pat on the back - though perhaps "racial sensitivity" will shoo that out the window.

This statement you just made comes very close to an anarchist ideology, and quite frankly I don't think the US needs any help in destroying itself at the moment.

 

*sigh*

That probably wasn't worth my time to type, but whatever.

Reply #9 Top

You're right.  Let me correct that:

Nice crock of feces, there.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Audiafox, reply 8

This isn't history repeating itself.  Being against illegal immigration isn't because we're racist, it's because if Mexico were to come into the US there would be zero jobs left for native-born US citizens who want them.  That wouldn't be fair.  I, for one, don't want to have to move to South America just to find work because South American citizens + outsourcing snatched up every available job.

 

It is history repeating itself.  You punish someone for being born in the wrong place by denying them an opportunity to work for a living.  What isn't fair is being not allowed to work for a living because of where you were born.

If someone else gets a job you were vying for, you feel that should be illegal if the person was born to the wrong [nation/race/caste/gender/orientation/religion/some other irrelevancy], race or caste and you don't think that's fascist?


Quoting Audiafox, reply 8


$1000 will let you live like a king down there for a month.  I hazard to say that a large number of illegals are looking for more than to merely feed hungry families.

Besides, I like speaking English, thanks very much.

And your hazard would be false.  Most /are/ just trying to feed their families.  They can't get $1000 per month work.  Most can't get work at all because the companies and governments from their countries of origin are corrupt.  Did you know some of the wealthiest people in the world live in Mexico?  In fact, the CEO of a Mexican telecom exceeded Bill Gates' worth for several years recently.

When you pre-judge people you've never met, that's prejudism.  Pre-judge = prejudism.  Prejudism = supremacism.

 

Quoting Audiafox, reply 8

Also, you do realize that your statement is, in fact, an encouragement for illegals to break the law.  The law which ensures civil order and prevents the rise of an anarchic mob (mostly).  The law which is responsible for the prosperity which made the US appealing in the first place.

Very circular when you define a group of people to be illegal.  If this were 160 years ago, I would be encouraging "illegals" to break the law if I, in any way shape or form, encouraged slaves to try to escape their captors.  If this were 60 years ago, I would be encouraging "illegals" to break the law if I, in any way shape or form, allowed a black person to sit in the front of a bus or use a bathroom labelled "whites only." 

Quoting Audiafox, reply 8
There is a method by which one can immigrate from South America to the US and be legally allowed to work.  In fact, beyond getting a green card it's not even difficult.

Only by lottery.  There are persons born in other countires who serve tours of duty in the U.S. armed forces and are still not granted U.S. citizenship.  Any one /can/, but every one cannot because there are way too few.  Should you be allowed to work only if you pay money for a lottery ticket and have no better than a 1 in 1,000 chance of being allowed to work even after paying?

Quoting Audiafox, reply 8


Yet you want us to ignore the fact that these people willfully break our laws, on grounds of "bigotry and fascism"?  Please.  Last time I checked, breaking the law got you jail time, not a pat on the back - though perhaps "racial sensitivity" will shoo that out the window.

A black man escaping slavery was willfully breaking our laws prior to the Emancipation Proclamation.  A person living in the West of Japanese ancestry who escaped internment camps willfully broke our laws.

Classist laws that discriminate against people because of their birth are fascist laws and should never be allowed.  The law is fascist and immoral.

Quoting Audiafox, reply 8

This statement you just made comes very close to an anarchist ideology, and quite frankly I don't think the US needs any help in destroying itself at the moment.

Declaring a fascist law as invalid is no more anarchist than the voices who called for emancipation prior to the legal domestic abolition of slavery.

 

Quoting Audiafox, reply 8

*sigh*

That probably wasn't worth my time to type, but whatever.

No more than the time it took for tea baggers to scribble their nonsense on their signs.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Daiwa, reply 9
You're right.  Let me correct that:

Nice crock of feces, there.

Rewording the same wrong statement does not correct it.

Reply #12 Top

When you feel it is a crime for someone tobe allowed to work to feed their families purely because of their race

That is a very racist and bigoted statement.  Thank you for showing your true colors. and your ignorance since you have no clue what the hell you are talking about.

Reply #13 Top

You punish someone for being born in the wrong place by denying them an opportunity to work for a living.

Another supremest and racist statement.  You are full of them (or it).  You seem to think that the only country worth living in and working in is the USA.  your ignorance knows no bounds apparently.  I can see where this current regime gets its racism and bigotry from.  The same place your ignorance and racism is rooted in.  And that saddens me.  That there are still racists like you in this country.

Reply #14 Top

I'MMA FIRIN' MAH LAZAH!

 

Quoting Chibiabos, reply 10
A black man escaping slavery was willfully breaking our laws prior to the Emancipation Proclamation.

I suppose you also believe the Civil War was fought over slavery?  Bzzzt, wrong.  Good old Abe Lincoln couldn't have cared less about slavery.  In fact, most of the US didn't care about it either.

The Civil War was fought because the South was protesting against the government trying to pass laws on them (outlawing slavery) when it was not supposed to be in the power of the government to force such a thing on them.

In fact, the North winning the war actually meant that liberal bigots won, and our democracy took a near-lethal hit.  Unfortunately, the winners write the history, too.

In other words, this statement is totally invalid:

Quoting Chibiabos, reply 10
Declaring a fascist law as invalid is no more anarchist than the voices who called for emancipation prior to the legal domestic abolition of slavery.

The truth is that it was anarchist.  Yes, they might have been doing something good or worthwhile morally, but the fact is that it was still open revolt against the government.  A good number of people involved in the "emancipation" movement were nothing short of terrorists.  Does the name John Brown ring a bell?

However, keeping illegals out of the country isn't fascist or supremacist of us, or even morally wrong.  And there are reasons for it, as described before.

 

And by the way, you're using the word "fascist" incorrectly (and really frequently - I've found that most people who overuse a word ironically don't know its true meaning).  The US is in no way a totalitarian state, and passing a law against illegal immigrants doesn't make it such, either.

 

Quoting Chibiabos, reply 10
And your hazard would be false.  Most /are/ just trying to feed their families.  They can't get $1000 per month work.

You missed the point.  The illegals come here and make $1000 a month (probably more) and send it back to Mexico, where their families live like kings and queens.  If you could so easily raise your standard of living, would you be satisfied even if you had a job in Mexico?

The fact is that starvation is not a main motivator in illegal immigration, but greed.  Now I'm not saying that no illegals are trying to feed a starving family.  I'm just saying the number of starving people is just quite a bit lower than you might think.  I mean, if people were starving on such a massive scale, wouldn't we have a slightly larger issue with immigration?

What we're seeing is a case of "the pasture is greener across the fence" mentality.  If we made illegal immigration legal, we would have no end of people willing to do your job for half the money.  I think you would change your mind about "bigotry" once you were shown the door in favor of an immigrant.

And notice that I'm not saying Mexican or South American.  I'm talking about illegal immigrants of any race here.

I am not a racial bigot.  I am just against illegals, a demographic which happens to be mostly Mexican.

Reply #15 Top

I just realized that "I'MMA FIRIN' MAH LAZAH" could have been taken as bigotry against black people, and I apologize.  It was, in fact, a reference to "the Lazer Collection" which can be found on YouTube.

*cough*

Reply #16 Top

Thank you all for the spirited debate.  We seem to have drifted off into the social/political issue and away from the intended point...but that is okay.  Probably my fault for choosing a title that drew fire.  My point was that the idea that we "need" illegals to do jobs us white boys won't do is balderdash.  

As far as the illegal immigrant issue, when you scrape away all the BS rhetoric it comes down to one simple fact.  Coming into the United States without proper permission is illegal.  If you are in this country illegally, I don't care what your motives are, what your family lives on, where you come from, what you eat for lunch, or what color your skin is...you are a criminal and you need to leave.  The unemployment rate in this country is hovering around 10%...that alone should justify an attitude of eliminating members of the work force who are not entitled to hold a job here.  

Now all those who want to make us out to be racist, bigoted, mean-spirited, whatevers...this is NOT a racial issue.  It is an issue of national security.  We cannot expect to be safe in our homes when our borders are open to our enemies.  Those who wish to do us harm because they deem our standard of living to be evidence of our decadence will use any means to destroy us...including various ways of undermining our economy.  

Notice that no where did I address the drug/people smugglers or other hard core criminals who are here illegally.  They don't want jobs or welfare, they just want to get rich off of us because we have more and better stuff to steal or more cash-carrying drug-dependant customers for their trade.  The money that is spent every day maintaining the illegals that are in our prison system would go a long way towards healing some of the financial ills of our states and cities.

 

Ahhhh...but don't get me started...


Reply #17 Top

Quoting Big, reply 16
If you are in this country illegally, I don't care what your motives are, what your family lives on, where you come from, what you eat for lunch, or what color your skin is...you are a criminal and you need to leave.

Well said.

Reply #18 Top

I agree but want to add:

1.  It doesn't matter to me if you cannot speak English.  English is hard to learn and my require expensive classes which some cannot afford.  I learned Spanish (an easy language) in American schools, so you are okay with me.

2.  It doesn't matter to me if you work here, as long as you cross the border legally.  I know that other governments are corrupt and many people are poor and desperate.  Immigration laws should assist them.  That is what America is all about but we must have order in the system and keep out those who would harm us or commit crimes, because it is damaging not just our citizens and legal immigrants but the innocent victims who are convinced that they must try to cross the border out of turn.

3.  We want to remain a haven for those honest people who wish to come here.  We can only do this if our borders are secure.  

4.  Some would do away with the tradition of babies born here receiving automatic citizenship.  I would not.  I think it is fine, a mother's sacred privilege, if you will.  Just fill out the papers and do it legally!

Reply #19 Top

mis-post...sorry.

Reply #20 Top

Chibiabos:  Your attitude seems to be that anyone, born anywhere, has a RIGHT to come to America and have a job.  Is that what you meant to say or am I misunderstanding you?  If that is what you believe, consider what the nth degree of that would be.  You are advocating the destruction of the United States by tearing down her borders, destroying her economy, and collapsing her infrastructure.  You are granting a RIGHT to the world that is not granted to the citizens of the US.  Your true color is showing.

Reply #21 Top

Hey BFD,

I'm with ya here.  Growing up on a farm I did them horrible jobs that only Illegals do.  I topped onions (yes that is the correct harvesting term).  I even have a certificate on how to properly use a hoe!  I remember getting out to the fields at sun up and working til sun down.  Lunch was the only break we got (and I was the farmer's son!).  In college I did some crappy jobs.  The bottom line though was I knew it was a stepping stone. Little did I realize there was more truth to that then I realized.  Because I was faithful and hard working in the crappy jobs as I continued and finished my education I moved up to better jobs.  I know have one like Doc, where I use my brains and fingers to earn my living. 

As for the pay on the farm.... My dad had the philosophy that part of our pay was for the room and board so we hardly made as much as the migrant workers did.  We also had to work harder than the migrant workers because if we didn't we'd hear crap about it from the workers.  Most of the community I grew up in was largely Hispanic.  I have experienced racism from that side.  Thrown into lockers just because I'm white.  Constantly having to watch what I say because it would be turned against me exponentially. 

I would be quite surprised to hear that Chiabiabos has even worked one of these kinds of jobs.  No, working at Mickey D's or Pizza Hut doesn't count. 

I've worked for this guy who set up manufactured homes.  I usually got the super crappy jobs because a I was the newbie and the smaller but strong guy capable to crawl through attics in the Kansas humid heat.  I was the one that they had carry around the beams for the rollers (often times without help). OSHA did exist but I didn't even know anything about it nor did I think enough about it to care.  Work had to be done just like your pallets. 

I can related to your experience a bit.  I remember on some these houses we'd start at like 5:30AM and worked til 9PM (only food breaks which were about 20 minutes).  We'd be so tired we couldn't even drive to the hotel.  We just crashed in the trucks on site.  All to wake up and do it again.

 

Reply #22 Top

Here is something for all the racists like Chibiabos to think about. 

The teenage unemployment rate is above 20%.  Why?  The only thing most teenagers are capable of are entry level.  They have to learn how to work (almost everyone does).  Yet when hiring, any manager worth his pay will hire someone with work experience BEFORE he hires one with no experience.  So non-legal residents (illegal immigrants for the PC) will always get the job first.  They learned how to work back in their home country and came here older and with the work ethic.  So by supporting illegal immigrants over American teens, you are basically taking money out of the mouths of your family and justifying it by saying there is hunger in the world.

yes, there is hunger in the world.  But then when you work, where does your money go?  Do you first make sure the rest of the world has food?  or do you first make sure your family does?  if the latter, and you are like Chibiabos, then you are not only a racists, but a hypocrite, because people like him/her yell about the poor in the world while stuffing their faces with twinkies and coke.

And we know this to be a fact, because you cannot eat a computer, and a computer was used to post to this forum.  How many starving children were deprived by Chibiabos' extravagant purchase of a computer (and the software)?

Reply #23 Top

As is common, unfortunately, the mob tirade is against liberty.  When the mob is arguing that the federal abolition of slavery was illegal and unjust, there is simply no way for me to make any constructive arguments.

When you declare you have superior rights because of your noble birth versus other unworthy folk who may not be allowed to earn a wage to feed ther family, you have zero claim to any belief in freedom, liberty or justice for anyone and, in fact, you are an enemy to each.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting Chibiabos, reply 23
As is common, unfortunately, the mob tirade is against liberty.  When the mob is arguing that the federal abolition of slavery was illegal and unjust, there is simply no way for me to make any constructive arguments.

So now illegal immigrants are slaves?  Since when?  When did you learn to become so prejudicial based upon a person's race?  It saddens me that through all the growing this country has done, there are still small minded racist bigots like you. 

Last I saw, virtually every damn illegal immigrant entered the country on their own free will.  none where smuggled into this country.

When you declare you have superior rights because of your noble birth versus other unworthy folk who may not be allowed to earn a wage to feed ther family, you have zero claim to any belief in freedom, liberty or justice for anyone and, in fact, you are an enemy to each.

No, hypocrite, I maintain that I will feed my family before the world.  This I proudly proclaim without any remorse or regret.  With the plenty I have left over, I will help those who are hungry outside of my family, but my family comes first.

Apparently, you cannot even recognize your own hypocrisy. You talk a lot, but you do nothing for what you profess to believe in.  You are worse than those who will not help.  You pretend to, all the while feeding your fat face with twinkies.  You are simply your own enemy, a poor excuse for a human, a good example of a miserable wretched hypocrite.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Audiafox, reply 14

I suppose you also believe the Civil War was fought over slavery?  Bzzzt, wrong.  Good old Abe Lincoln couldn't have cared less about slavery.  In fact, most of the US didn't care about it either.

The Civil War was fought because the South was protesting against the government trying to pass laws on them (outlawing slavery) when it was not supposed to be in the power of the government to force such a thing on them.

In fact, the North winning the war actually meant that liberal bigots won, and our democracy took a near-lethal hit.  Unfortunately, the winners write the history, too.

In other words, this statement is totally invalid

That statement was totally invalid, period.  I did not mention the Civil War.  You did not even read what I wrote.

I wrote, essentially, that it was illegal for a black man to be free before the abolition of slavery.  You've thrown up a bunch of irrelevant nonsense in argument that had nothing to do with what I even wrote.

Quoting Audiafox, reply 14


Chibiabos
comment 10
Declaring a fascist law as invalid is no more anarchist than the voices who called for emancipation prior to the legal domestic abolition of slavery.


The truth is that it was anarchist.  Yes, they might have been doing something good or worthwhile morally, but the fact is that it was still open revolt against the government.  A good number of people involved in the "emancipation" movement were nothing short of terrorists.  Does the name John Brown ring a bell?

In my dictionary, an "anarchist" is someone who believes that no one else should ever have any authority over them.  Merely believing a law is wrong does not qualify.  I do not know how you define anarchism, however ... for all I know, you could define anarchism as anyone who has blue eyes.

Quoting Audiafox, reply 14


However, keeping illegals out of the country isn't fascist or supremacist of us, or even morally wrong.  And there are reasons for it, as described before.

So, keeping escaped slaves prior to the abolition of slavery out of the country was not fascist, supremacist nor morally wrong?

The internment camps in the western U.S. during World War II was not fascist, supremacist, nor morally wrong?

Both of those situations were "keeping illegals" in 'their place.'

Quoting Audiafox, reply 14

And by the way, you're using the word "fascist" incorrectly (and really frequently - I've found that most people who overuse a word ironically don't know its true meaning).  The US is in no way a totalitarian state, and passing a law against illegal immigrants doesn't make it such, either.

Is it doubly ironic that you don't?  Laws that discriminate against a minority and declare them unworthy to have the right to life, liberty or justice.  Examples:  Slavery laws; the Nazi German holocaust against Jews, gays and other minorities; internment by the U.S. government of U.S. citizens of Japanese ancestry in World War II.

Quoting Audiafox, reply 14

Chibiabos
comment 10
And your hazard would be false.  Most /are/ just trying to feed their families.  They can't get $1000 per month work.


You missed the point.  The illegals come here and make $1000 a month (probably more) and send it back to Mexico, where their families live like kings and queens.  If you could so easily raise your standard of living, would you be satisfied even if you had a job in Mexico?

You've missed the point and work hard to keep yourself ignorant of the facts.  There is an upper class in Mexico whose earnings would be very impressive even here in the U.S.

The wealthiest individual in the world, in fact, is Carlos Slim Helu, the CEO of the Mexican state telecom.  His net worth is US$53.5 billion, half a billion U.S. dollars more than the net worth of Bill Gates.

A lot of Americans moved to the 'Green Zone' in Iraq to make a lot of money, or to Dubai in the United Arab Emirates to send a lot of money home to their families here.  Is that morally wrong to you?  Or is it only morally wrong to you when a non-white person tries to provide for their families?


Quoting Audiafox, reply 14

The fact is that starvation is not a main motivator in illegal immigration, but greed.  Now I'm not saying that no illegals are trying to feed a starving family.  I'm just saying the number of starving people is just quite a bit lower than you might think.  I mean, if people were starving on such a massive scale, wouldn't we have a slightly larger issue with immigration?

I've /worked/ with those "illegals" in farm fields.  Many could not get any jobs at all at home -- $0 income.  $0 income to feed their families.  How much food can you buy for $0?  Even in Mexico, food and rent does cost money.

I hazard to say I likely have more experience being with and getting to know some of these "illegals" than you do.

Quoting Audiafox, reply 14

What we're seeing is a case of "the pasture is greener across the fence" mentality.  If we made illegal immigration legal, we would have no end of people willing to do your job for half the money.  I think you would change your mind about "bigotry" once you were shown the door in favor of an immigrant.

Ignorant through and through.  For starters, again, the people that come here illegally are not people who are well off ... their families are below the poverty line.  For another, the minimum wage laws would apply to them if they were legitimate and could actually get help from the law instead of persecution -- the same applies to the horrible crimes committed against them (by Mexican gangs and "Minutemen" lynch mobs).  As it stands, they know they cannot get help from the police or authorities.  This is because of the oppressive laws.

Quoting Audiafox, reply 14



And notice that I'm not saying Mexican or South American.  I'm talking about illegal immigrants of any race here.

Really?  So you going to propose equal treatment of the Canadian border, which is the only land border used by the 9/11 terrorists to cross into the U.S.?  The largest national border in the world -- 5,525 miles to be exact, roughly half of which is Alaskan -- is the U.S./Canada border.  A lot of people cross that border illegally every day.  Because they are white, no one cares.  The arguments "because terrorists might slip in" always goes to the Mexican border, where not one single 9/11 terrorist got in the country, is never applied to the Canadian border.

At the going rate of $15 million per mile, that's roughly $83 billion to build the wall to the same level as current levels of walls against Mexico.

Quoting Audiafox, reply 14

I am not a racial bigot.  I am just against illegals, a demographic which happens to be mostly Mexican.

You discriminate against people based on where they are born.  What have you -done- to earn yourself the supreme privileges you demand exclusive rights to and deny others who are different?  How does that fit in with the pledge's promise of "liberty, freedom and justice for all?"