I'd rather it be faction and culture-based instead of race-based (in other words, the current system).  The modders will be fine.    

Stick with the Culture and Genetics approach.

Perhaps the confusion/difficulty does not lie in the approach as much as the words which define it.  The word 'Race (implying genetics)' is clear enough to me.  However, the word 'Faction (implying Culture)' is not.

Men, elves, orcs....we all think of them as races with significantly different genetics, even if there is some common ancestry. 

But when I think of 'factions' it is not as clear.  I tend not to think of Chinese vs Ottoman Empires (which would be different cultures).  Instead I might think of Tea Party vs Republicans (both conservative politically) or perhaps Sierra Club versus Audobon Society (both are factions in the environmental community).  While culturally these 'factions' are a bit different, the word 'Faction' does not express true cultural differences.

Maybe say 'Cultures' instead?  If not that, what other words imply significantly different ways of thinking, looking at thw world and doing things?  How do academics differ from professionals, military from civilians, Navy from Air Force, Hispanics from Scandanavians?  They are culturally different, we need a word that resonates these differences and I don't believe that 'faction' is quite right.

Erm .... FACTION DISTINCTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the end I would like for each faction to play WILDLY differently.

obviously ART and some LORE would be cool too, although GAME MECHANIC DISTINCTIONS and FACTION DISTINCTIONS FTW!!!!!!!

My Vote would be customization.

    While I love a well fleshed lore, to me a game like this is about replayability. and if it is more story focused then replayability goes out the window. Yeah I have books I reread because they are great. But at best I Reread them once every couple years.

   Ultimately for me, this game embodies my hope for something to either add to or replace MoO 2 as the game my brother and I play against each other when he is home on leave once or twice a year. Those couple weeks are very important to me and what we choose to do during it is something we look forward to. So replayability is the top choice in my books,

   And while I always buy the expansions of games I love. I would seriously be disapointed if I had to wait for an expansion for game customization.

From the perspective of a semi-casual gamer without a ton of time, put my vote down for focusing on making interesting, distinct, and developed pre-made factions that are fun to play as and against.  Some customization is ok but the emphasis should be on having solid pre-developed races that players are encouraged to play.

One of my minor pet peeves with Stardock games is the multitude of options you have when you start a game; having a massively customizable soveriegn/race/faction etc. is going to cause me analysis paralysis when I just want to click in and start a game fairly quickly.  However, if I don't take the time to set everything up I feel I might be investing a lot of time into a game that turns out to play very strangely becuase I forgot to tweak the starting settings just so.

For me the best factions in a turn based strategy game were in Alpha Centauri Why? Because they were each very distinct from one another I guess. You hated some (The Believers), feared some (The Hive) and wanted to be friends/subjugate some (University) because of what they were like. The leaders had personality So, if you can create something that makes players go "Oh I hate that guy! (computer faction) I always destroy them when I can!", then I think it can be worth sacrificing a bit to make it happen. If not, then customization is cool too!

• Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races.

This is the way I'd like to see the game lean.

I tried posting this on the other thread with no luck, but my test post went through so let's see if it works this time...

I think that customization should really be focused at the faction level. For example we'd have 10 Cannon Factions, with 5 Cannon races that have been previously stated. Every faction would have an alignment of either Empires or Kingdoms. So let's say that the Cannon Wraith faction has the magical resistance trait and is aligned with the Empires. I decide I want to play as Wraith, but create my own faction that is aligned with the kingdoms. I add a little backstory saying they broke away from the main faction and crossed over to the west. The journey was taxing and they lost their magical resistance, but gained the ability to be fast travelers. My new faction, which I'll name the Kingdom of Free Wraith, would be aligned with the Kingdoms. Maybe there could even be options for swapping out building art, so I could have buildings in the style of one of the Man factions (or even a custom one made by the modding community which could be loaded in).

Throughout the course of the game then my Kingdom of Free Wraith could interact with the Cannon Wraith, who probably wouldn't like me very much, as well as other 'custom' wraiths created by the AI - such as another sided with the Kingdoms that has a different trait, or maybe a breakaway faction that stayed aligned with the Empires, though I think allowing the AI to create custom factions should be optional. I think this works best to keep the lore relevant, but allow for a lot of customization. Maybe the ability to add new races could be given to people modding the game, but I'd rather not have it included as part of the base game - I like the idea of a few well developed core races and factions. It gives the game real depth.

When you put it that way, my vote is for "Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets.." etc. The lore and default factions are very important for attracting new players that don't want to get into customization right away, but as long as you reach a certain minimum needed to suck new players in - and if you have a campaign and 10 well-developed factions either way, it sounds like you're going to reach that minimum - then any further time is better spent developing the customization code/assets, that's what's going to matter in the long run.

If stardock can make the game, like this thread = win.

In Civ4 (and in general), all the factions felt the same, they had ONE unique unit (and one building) and it was usually obsolete pretty quickly.

Would I rather see them different because of who they were, or what they were...

One benifits the indavidualist, the other benifits the historians. One benifits replay value, the other benifits a richer single experince.

Do I get experince points for thinking about this?

I would prefer the lore/factions focus as long as the modding can expand the other areas well.

Then perhaps it would be best to bring on a few more programmers specifically for the AI ? Usually RTS games have a number of specialized developers focusing specifically on the AI. Seems a bit crazy for the CEO to also be doing the AI (where do you find your free time ? )

Customization

TheProgress, Frogboy has stated that with Elemental he will actually have a team (of some 4-5 people) doing the AI. On GalCiv he did it by his own.

Frogboy,

I am not trying to be dense, but maybe if you could expand on your two bullet points. If you went with the first path what are some distinct things that I would see in game? Contrast the two bullet points with in game examples of what would be gained or lost by going each route? For instance, if you went with option one, would there still be in game tools to create a race, and if so how basic might those tools be? If we went with option two how elaborate might those tools be? And would would be the negatives of going with option two, what sorts of things would you conceive would be pared down in regards to the factions?

I am not trying to go "lawyer" on you, I am trying to better understand your question to provide a coherent answer.

I always figured that the AI program was as much of a hobby as a job to him... so... the AI programming is his free time

On topic, however... I'd say it's a tough decision. On one hand, interesting lore and gameplay is what is going to draw people initially to the game. Reviews make passing note of customization options, but it's the core elements that get talked about the most.

On the other hand, however, this could be a chance to see a game that does draw a clear distinction between race/faction...

I'd say as long as focusing on lore doesn't completely remove the distinctions between the different races (rather, just integrates them into the faction), then go with that.

I agree with the points that SuperTimo and Ryan Hanson made. I'd like lore and well-differentiated factions+races. I don't really see why you have to eliminate race distinctions if you go with more lore vs. more customization.

Since Elemental aspire to be a successor to MoM, one should consider what was the appeal of MoM. One strength was the diversity of side that could be picked and how it changed how the game could be played. Another was how you could customize your wizard.

Since Elemental will be compared to MoM, it is important to have factions that behave very differently since there will be mention of how limited is the number of races (no elves, no dwarves ....) in Elemental.

Since lots of work will be put into 10 canon factions, it is important to ensure that players will try each faction instead of going only for one or only for a customized faction. This also means that canon races should have bonus not available to cutomized faction.

Hands down - "more emphasis on making it easy for players (in game) to customize their own factions/races"

Sammual

I'm going to be voting for lore here, I want to see the factions and races that make it into the game be full of flavour. I just feel that while some level of customization is great, there is always the danger of everything becoming a bit too bland. Spore is a great example of this, were you had tons of customization options, but the creatures were only skin deep, under the surface they were almost the same. So I'd prefer some fleshed out factions and races with lots of lore and individuality compared to tons of customization options that might not be as rich and interesting.

I'd rather

Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races.

As shown by the polls, I think most people would want to play with their own creation rather than be always tied down to picking from a single set of premade possibilities. Plus, this would go extremely well with the idea of your Channeler actively creating whole civilizations or even races a la Silmarillion.

Stardock,

I vote for option 2 quoted below:

"Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races."

Darvrorth

With that said, I put my vote in for racial distinction and more customization.  Its the customization features that keep me playing a game.

The game play elements distinct races could bring, would be worth it.  You want some good archers? Well those elves make pretty good ones, so maybe you ally with them and join forces, perhaps you trade for a squad of their archers, or maybe you just conquer and coerce them to fight for you. The level of detail it would add gives me the feeling that it add its own flavor of immersion by defining not only the differences amongst factions, but of the races that make up those factions.

While any actual Unique-ness in game-play (Lore-based or other) should take highest priority, Art in my opinion takes superiority over Lore ... so I would have to vote for more Race distinctions and Assets vs Excess Lore for the Hiergamemnon.

THAT BEING SAID ... if its a question of COOL QUESTS vs ART then I would have to place my vote on COOL QUESTS.

whichever option gets the cooler quests gets my vote

Much clearer what you're asking now :) 

Fleshing out the Factions gets my vote.  The more distinctive character and personality that you can imbue them with will make the gameworld that much richer.

So, as Frogboy stated, these recent race threads have been filled with misconception. In order to me to understand the issues, I was forced to use an analogy. I found that it helped, and seeing how this confusion is still on going, I believe it may help others as well. My analogy was to view Demigods in terms of the division of Europe following the Reformation. This was when Europe was divided between Catholicism and Protestantism. (Also, please forgive my liberties with timelines, ethnicities, and cultures; I was trying to build a quick analogy.)

Europe was divided by Philosophy, in this case religion, either Protestant or Catholic. It was further divided into Factions, in this case countries, e.g., Spain, France, Germany, etc. Each Faction was then divided into different cultures and ethnicities, e.g., Saxon, Celt, Frank, etc. Some of these cultures and ethnicities were found in multiple countries, e.g., Franks and Romans, others were found only in a single country e.g., Portuguese.

Elemental can be divided in a similar way. First it is divided by Philosophy, either Empire or Kingdom. It is further divided into Factions, e.g., Pariden, Altar, Tarth, etc. Each Faction it then composed of a primary race, e.g., Magnars, Urxen, Men, etc.

Now, what I believe Frogboy is asking is, should each Faction have only one race (as displayed in the chart), or should players be choose different races for each Faction. More specifically, should The Kingdom of Pariden be composed only of Amarians or of Amarians and other player designed races.

I believe part of the confusion lies on discriminating the races of Men differently from the races of the Fallen. I believe that a good solution would be to ignore Men entirely, and focus on the subrace. So Men is removed and replaced by Men-Amarian, Men-Ironeers, Men-Krax, etc. (Going a step further and using Amarains, Ironeers, and Krax might be even more clear.)

One of the problems arises from this is how to treat captured cities. Currently if you capture a 10 million population, these people magically transform to your own race. This is a common game mechanic, but while easy, it lacks plausibility.

On the other extreme we have Master of Orion 3. In MOO3 each planet was composed of a certain number of citizens. You began the game with racial purity, with each planet composed only of members of your own race. However, as you expanded colonizing any planets that contained people of different races introduced those people into your population. These new races could then migrate to other worlds creating an Empire that spanned planets, cultures, and races.

On the good side this meant that a planet could be settled and populated by the race in your empire that was beast suited to living on it, and members of that race would automatically migrate there. Also, when building units, the racial makeup of the world was considered when creating the units on the world. If you had a world comprised of roughly 50% Orcs and 50% Elves, when units were constructed on the world, roughly 50% would be Orc units and 50% would be Elven units.

On the downside, one of the races were parasitic mutants. They would automatically transform members of other races into members of their own race. An analogy of this would be zombies; they eat people to create more zombies. If you didn’t want to have this happen you either had to be careful never to capture any planets containing these races, or you had to “purify” any of your worlds that had members of this race (say hello to Mr. Atomic Cleansing Power).

So, now, given all this, what do I think? (I know everyone cares, really I do.)

I think that there should simple differences at each level of Philosophy, Faction, Race, and special ability. These differences should provide unique technologies, production bonuses, military bonuses, and special abilities. Each level should have a couple of options to choose from.

Some rough examples:

The Philosophy level (Empire versus Kingdom).

• The Empire should have access to the Berserker Trait (+25% damage, -25% defense). Units can be given the Berserker Trait when they are designed (i.e, optional).
• The Kingdom should have access to the Peaceful Trait (+10% Food Production).
• All cities gain a Food Production bonus.

The Faction Level

• The Gilden would have access to the Merchant Trait (+10% Income).
• All cities gain an Income bonus.
• The Kraxis would have access to the Blood Pit (unique building).
• The Blood Pit reduces population growth in a city by 25%, but provides +1 Experience per turn to all units within the city.

The Racial Level

The Racial level would be broken up into Generic Racial Bonuses and Specific Racial Bonuses.

• All Krax would gain enhanced spoon (+15% Spoon Usage).
• The Ironeers would have access to enhanced forks (+10% Spoon Usage).
• All races would have access to hard working (+10% production).
• All men would have access to Charismatic (+10% Diplomacy).
• The Ironeers would have access to Golems (unique unit).

So some completed example sides would be:

 Kingdom of Gilden: Hard Working Ironeers

• Philosophy: Peaceful +10% Food Production
• Kingdom: Merchant +10% Income
• Race: Hard Working +10% Production
• Racial Special Unit: Golems

Kingdom of Kraxis: Charismatic Krax

• Philosophy: Berserker Trait (+25% damage, -25% defense to units with the trait)
• Kingdom: Blood Pit (Unique Building)
• Race: Charismatic  +10% Diplomacy
• Racial Special Unit: Sandwich Makers

Okay, given all this, what happens when the Empire of Kraxis captures of city from the Kingdom of Gilden containing the Ironeers. First, I’d treat Races just like Resources. If you have any member of Race X in your kingdom/empire, you’ll be able to build units with that race anywhere in your empire. This gets rid of a lot of bookkeeping, and keeps things more fun. So once you capture an Ironeer city and you can build golems anywhere. If you lose all of the Ironeers in your population, you likewise lose the ability to build golems.

Racial Traits that are side specific would not transfer. So if someone creates a side of Ironeers with +1, when anyone captures one of their cities, the units produced in those cities do not gain +1 attack. Instead they would gain whatever bonus their side has in its place. In essence the Ironeers would be turned into ‘generic Ironeers’ instead of Hardworking, Fierce, or Long Ranged Ironneers, and then converted into whatever is the capturing sides unique ability. So if a Fierce Krax captures a Hardworking Ironeer, the city essentially becomes filled with Fierce Ironeers. Likewise, the city would lose all bonuses associated with Philosophy or Faction.

So, how detailed should the visual race maker be? I vote for having Faction specific buildings, armors, and units. Then within each Faction have some variability for race that are purely cosmetic, things like skin color, hair styles, height, etc. As previously noted, most races are bipedal and have roughly the same body style. This means that there should only be trivial work done converting the Armor for the Gilders who are Ironeers than those who are Wraiths.

This brings us back to a point that I skipped earlier. Who should have access to what? Here’s an example (of what I think would be good).

A player wants to create a side filled with peaceful trading Elves.

1. The player first picks a Philosophy, from either Kingdom or Empire.
   
   1. He chooses Kingdom and a Kingdom-Specific bonus.
2. Next the player chooses a kingdom from Pariden, Altar, Capitar, Gilden, or Tarth.
   
   1. Hearing good things about the Trading ways of Gilder, he chooses the Kingdom of Gilder and a Gilder-Specific bonus.
3. He is then presented a series of races that belong to the Kingdom of Gilden.
   1. The dominant race for Gilden is the Ironeers, which is also the best match bonus wise.
   2. However it also include, Rebels, Magnars, and Amarians.
   3. Unsatisfied with the human choices, he chooses Magnars.
      
      1. While their racial bonuses are not directly compatible with the bonuses of Gilden, they do conform to his desired race.
      2. This would result in most players choosing to play the Gildens with the Ironeers, but still allow for oddball strategies or personal preference.
4. After choosing his Race, he then chooses a Magnar-Specific Racial bonus and designs the visual appearance of his Magnars.
   
   1. He changes their skin color to a bright white, gives them even pointier ears, and green hair.

I believe this would satisfy the min/maxers. To help out players with less interest in diversity, each choice could have a recommended default. Likewise the visual appear for the race could either have a couple of presets or a randomize feature.

The end result of all of this:

• Players would be able to make choices that do make significant differences.
• Plots and backstories would still be accurate as they represent the majority of each particular side.
• Players would be able to play as the Real Gilder Ironeers or as the crazy minor Gilder Magnars.
• Players would be able to quickly start a game with a decent side selection.
• Players would be able to spend hours coming up with the perfect combination of features for a side.