The Priority of the Fixing of Underpowered Capital Classes

from Sins Forums

This is to address the other issue pointed out in my other thread about abilities.  Capitals need strong abilities to support a fleet, but also need to stay alive to use them.  It is generally agreed that Carriers and Colonizers are sufficiently powerful in regards to abilities, but just like all other capitals, they too die quickly to focus fire.

 

1.  Battleships: These are an underused class of ship.  This includes the infamously weak Kol, the Kortul, and the Radiance.  Ideas have been put forward on multiple occasions to deal with the issue here.  BS's are supposed to be powerful dreadnoughts that can soak up damage and deal out a good chunk themselves.  Right now?  They suck at this.

Proposed Fix A: Increase weapons banks by ship to reflect that particular ship's characteristics.  For instance, the Kol would gain say, 3 targets per bank for each bank, whereas the Radiance would receive TpB buffs to its port and starboard weapons.

Proposed Fix B: Increase weapons damage.  This would not apply to the Kols as much as it would, say the Radiance's forward banks. 

Proposed Fix C: B could be used in tandem with A so that the Radiance would have 3 TpB on its port and starboard, but would deal 3 times more damage from its bow.  A similar rule would apply to the Kortul and Kol.  The Kol would be focused on TpB, the Radiance would be focused on damage buffs, and the Kortul would be in the middle somewhere.

 

2. Support: These are also weak.  They lack the AM to use abilities.  Period.  End of story.

Proposed Fix A: Increase AM regeneration.

Proposed Fix B: Increase maximum AM.

Proposed Fix C: Increase maximum AM by ~50% and double-triple AM regen.

 

3. Siege: These don't do a whole lot.  Either in combat or otherwise without abilities.

Proposed Fix A: Vastly improve bombing damage.  This would really only apply to the Revelation since it lacks any real power.

Proposed Fix B: Increase TpB of forward banks to 3-6 and damage by 100%-200% (both depending on the ship).  This would allow the Marza to actually get some use out of Incendiary Shells as it would be affecting multiple targets instead of just one.  Perhaps have this only apply to the Vulk and Marza if the Revel gets A.

 

X. Survivability: This applies to all capitals.  Late game, they simply die to focus fire.  Many solutions have been put forward, but I don't know if any is quite right.  Nonetheless, here are some of the more popular ones:

Proposed Fix A: Increase mitigation caps.  The problem here is that with Advent pacts, mitigation can get quite high, meaning that capitals could border on invincibility.

Proposed Fix B: Reduce all damage types versus capitals.  This could work and would make capitals counter each other, but makes capitals ultra-powerful early game.

Proposed Fx C: Dramatically increase Hull/Shield gain per level.  This could work and would give an incentive to buy that upgrade that allows for capitals to be manually upgraded.

Proposed Fix D: Dramatically increase Hull/Shield regen gain per level.  This makes them more resilient.

Propsed Fix E: Create a researchable that instills a passive ability that increases the health and regeneration of capitals late game.  Perhaps have the last hull/shield upgrades as prerequisites.

 

If you have some idea that is not posted here, please comment.  We need ideas to solve this problem.

44,129 views 26 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top

Hmm, let me see-

Battleship-Fix A- I like this idea. It's pretty solid and simple, and makes battleships excellent at helping to pop lots of things. This would also help if a battleship is surrounded, since it can now fire virtually all around it (Sins would need to support dorsal/ventral banks for it to truely be able to fire all around itself).

BS-Fix B- also pretty good, but not as useful for the Kol and Radiance as the Kortul.

BS-Fix C- this is REALLY good IMO. By combining the solid idea of TpB increase, with some DPS bonuses to the banks that do not get TpB bonuses, you get an excellent damage-dealer ship that thrives in the thick of the fight.

Support- really, either fix would be good; however, if an increased AM reserve is chosen, it will still need to have AM regen buffs otherwise it will be perpetually running out of gas.

Siege-Fix A- since the general consensus seems to be that the Revelation is under-used and UP, I think that a bombing damage bonus would most benefit the Revelation; especially since the Vulk and Marza both have really good bombardment abilities.

Siege-Fix B- I think that this fix would really only benefit the Marza and Vulkoras. A damage bonus would probably help the Revelation, but the Revelation is really a support capital that is also a bombardment vessel. Or vice versa, depending on how you look at it.

Another fix for the Marza's Incendiary Shells has been to allow it to stack a limited number of times (I think that 10 times wouldn't be outrageous).

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

60 DPS which is reduced to 20 DPS after mitigation seems a bit high for a passive, or at least early game...  I don't know...

 

I would like to elaborate on what I meant on some of them as I was rushed to complete the post.  I did however manage to finish the part about survivability, so in that way, minus a few edits, the OP is complete now.

 

Yeah, I am leaning towards BS Fix C as well.

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Proposed Fix A: Vastly improve bombing damage.  This is especially helpful for the Revelation since it lacks any real power.

No.  This would make the Marza and Vulkoras overpowered, since they're already awesome at this to begin with.  I recommend giving the Marza and Vulkoras whatever treatment the battleships are getting, and giving the Revelation whatever treatment the support caps are getting.


Otherwise I support the general direction of this thread.  The carriers and colony caps are ruling the game currently, with very little interference from the remaining 60% of the capital ship lineup. 

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I believe if battleships get a forward (Or wherever the ship's primary weapons bank is) DPS buff and GRG ignores Mitigation/AF is made passive/Flack burst gets lowered 10 Antimatter cost per level, thing's would just about even out.  (Hmm...Well, the Kol anyway.  I actually have no expierience with the other 2 battleships)

-Twilight Storm

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

@Darvin: I was actually thinking of more of a boost for the Revelation.  Perhaps give it A as well as a support cap buff and then give the Marza and the Vulk B.

@Storm: In my other thread, I discuss why making GRG bypass mitigation is a bad idea.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Which one was that again?

-Twilight Storm

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

lol you made another one...

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

@Storm: The Priority of the Fixing of Underpowered Capital Abilities

@Derek: Yep.  People were trying to discuss the issue of capital survivability when they should have been discussing abilities, so I created a dedicated thread for just such things...

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

I don't see the need to up the dps of capships (battleship class or otherwise).  I think that would be a mistake.  I think frigs and hc are where your dps should come from.  To me, capships are for SUPPORT - even the battleships.  So make sure they can support the fleet.  And the first priority for making them support the fleet is buffing their survivability.

I do see a dilemna for the kortul, however.  Currently, one of its best abilities has to do with buffing its surviveabity (power surge).  But in buffing all caps's surviveabiltiy (which is sorely needed), this could effectively nerf the kortul.  So this needs to be thought out well.  Power surge, which is actually a good ability, might need to be unfortunately reworked to do something else, i.e. add significantly more dps instead of significantly more surviveability.

The same thing might be said of the kol with its shield ability.  It's special shield ability could be made rather useless with significant buffs to all capship surviveabilty (again, something that is sorely needed).

One idea might be to make capships counter other capships by changing their weapons to anti-capital damage (if they aren't already)?  Then the battleship surviveability abilities (kortul power surge, kol shield, radiance armor) might be just fine, because they would add surviveability in fights against other caps.  EDIT: This assumes, however, that capship surviveability is buffed by something like nerfing the hell out of the damage frigs, bombers, and cruisers do to caps, and not something like increasing mitigation or vastly increasing hull.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

The battleship supports its fleet through DPS and tanking power.  I see it in terms of D&D classes.  Battleship is the fighter class.  (At least, the Kol is designed that way)  It does need a boost to fulfil that role, but I think only its primary battery should be modified.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

The battleship supports its fleet through DPS and tanking power.

Nonsense.  NO caps should support the fleet through DPS (unless you are talking a special ability, like missle barrage), and ALL caps should have tanking power so that they can survive to peform said mission of "supporting the fleet."

As far as battleships go, they should support the fleet through ABILITIES such as jam weapons, flak burst, ignite antimatter, etc, not through dps or tanking (all caps need tanking).  Another proposed role for them might be to make them capship killers.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

I'm gonna have to disagree, Agent.  Battleships need to have a significantly higher DPS than other Cap ships.  Though Making them Cap Killers would also make sense for their purpose.  And the only DPS I'm suggesting be upped would be the main battery.  (Mostly, I'm refering to the Kol's Beam weapons getting a boost of around 15 DPS)

Fixing GRG would lessen the need for this, but not nullify it.  And flak burst is a poor fleet support ability.  (Not worthless, but too expensive to work well, unless you use it to give your flak frigates a head start)  IMO, both FB and GRG need an antimatter reduction.  (Dropping it 10pts per level, starting at 90, would be a nice way to round it off I think)

And maybe rather than ignoring mitigation like I've suggested, is there a way to have it ignore only half of it?  It'd make sense, the GRG round isn't like anything else being thrown at it.  (Unless they're in range of TEC turrets)  So the shields wouldn't be adapted to it.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Yes, its possible to do.  In fact, it is incredibly easy.  Just have two instantaction dealdamage effects where one AFFECTS_ONLY_HULL and the other AFFECT_SHIELDS_AND_HULL.

That said, I don't like the idea.  I still think that GRG should be a shield breaker as suggested in my other thread that is dedicated to solutions to abilities.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

And flak burst is a poor fleet support ability.

If flak burst is a poor fleet support ability, then fix it.  But the viability or non-viability of flak burst or any other ability has no bearing on whether or not caps should be used to support the fleet with abilities, vs. being damage tanks and dps dealers.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

-12, -24, -36 mitigation, right?  That'd work as well, assuming it also halts the growth of mitigation for ~5 sec.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

@Derek:

I do think though that battleships should actually be good damage dealers.  I mean, in real life, there are some super battleships that can singlehandedly defeat a small fleet.  The same applies to Star Destroyers.  I just think that sure, the others could be weakish in combat, but a battleship ought to give you a pretty decent punch.

 

@Storm:

My system simply reduces the mitigation cap by a potential number.  I know it wasn't that high though...

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

lolz.  That's right, you said something about that being too high.  Sorry, I'm going off memory here.^_^'

And it lowers the cap?  Hmm.  That'd work too.  (I do recomend somewhere around -25% at lvl 3 and keep its current damage per level.)  So would the lowering be total, for a set ammount of time, or would it stack per shot?  (If it stacks, then ~15% at lvl 3 would be a little better.)

-Twilight Storm

-Edit:  Agent, we disagree on the use of caps.  You say fix Flak burst opposed to making Battleship a DPS, I say fix Battleship as opposed to making it a support.  Cap-Ships are essentially supposed to be super versions of Frigates and Cruisers.  Analogy:

Kol=Cobalt/Kodiak/Flak(Barely)

Sova=Percheron/LRF

Marza=Krosov/LRF

Akkan=Protev/Cielo

Dunov=Hoshi/Cielo

Please don't critisise my analogy, those are just basic purposes in my eyes, I know there should be more ships included, but these are what I see as their purpose.

Now I know it's not as cut and dry as all that, but in a gmae comprised on ONLY capships, the 2 that should be dealing the most damage are Battleships (Through their own guns) and Carriers (Through their strikecraft)

The battleship already fulfills the tank role nicely, now I just would like to see some extra hitting power.  It wouldn't even break the game, it'd actually make Cap-Countering harder than Bombers and Kodiak spam, you'd have to choose the proper Cap ship.  (And what better to kill the beast?  Fight Fire with Fire...)

-Twilight Storm

-Edit:  This is totally out there(Maybe even already exists)  but what do you all think about somehow tweaking the Akkan/Progen/Jarrasul to give a slight "Like" bonus like the envoys, so long as it isn't attacking anything in the GW?

(I know most people say an immobile Capship is worthless...But It'd make every ship have a presence in Caps, And would make sense lore-wise.)

I forsee this being shot down, but please at least explain why if you disagree.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Agent, we disagree on the use of caps.

Yes we do.

Cap-Ships are essentially supposed to be super versions of Frigates and Cruisers.

No they aren't (at least not frigates).

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Anyone else care to jump in, this is getting nowhere on either side.  I'd be glad to conced with proper evidence or testimony from skilled players.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Well, capitals with the OP's suggestions would certainly be powerful.  In fact, Battleships would actually be more efficient than frigates meaning that capital spam would abound.  Frigates would be little backups while Kortuls, Kols, and Radiances blasted each other to Kingdom come.

So, perhaps this would be too good, but then again...  The Kol for instance...  All its guns are spread across tons of targets, so its really not that good at FF, meaning that it really could be about balanced....  Hmm...  This could mean that if you want to barrage enemy ships with DPS across an entire fleet, you get BS's.  If you want to FF more, get frigates perhaps?  This could mean that those that turtle in the pocket could come out late game with a fleet of 10 Battleships, 4 Carriers, and 2 Support backed up by LRF, HC's, Bombers, and Flak.  Can you say dead fleet?  On that scale, the Battleships would start behaving like Illuminators, only far more.  For instance, the Kol with 18 targets times 10 ships would mean 180 max targets.  Odds are this wouldn't happen which would result in some ships taking quite a bit of damage and repair cruisers wouldn't know where to turn.

Apply the same thing to Radiances and you have a similar effect as what you get with Illuminators.  They deal vast amounts of damage and can FF, but also shred forces beside them.

As for the Kortul, it would mean getting tons and tons of DS shots...  Imagine...  Four Kortuls waltzing in and basically deactivating every single ability your fleet has?  Side beams, multiple TpB, Power Surge, four Kortuls?  Abilities would simply walk out the door with no intent of coming back.

 

Want to think about siege?  The Marza would get quite a bit of use out of IS since it would be spread across multiple enemies meaning that it could actually deal a decent amount of damage.  It also makes it better since it can only hit one target (doesn't have side guns) currently.

The Vulkoras would gain the ability to cut wide swaths through enemy fleet with Phase Missiles.  It already has the biggest PM banks of any ship with a max of 68 DPS in PM's alone.  Combine that with an increase of forward guns by 200% and 3 banks, that means that you are dealing a total of 612 PM DPS which when under the best circumstances is about 2.5 times as good as any other weapon type meaning that your Vulk is effectively dealing 1530 DPS!  Don't forget either that DPS is the average, not the burst damage.  Missile attacks are every 8 seconds I believe meaning that the actual attack would effectively deal 12240 in one single barrage.  And you thought Missile Barrage was powerful...

 

As demonstrated by the Vulkoras, that would be WAY too overpowered.  The OP's suggestions would have to be toned down, but how?  How do we buff them without making these things omnipotent?  The Vulk is clearly too powerful with the current suggestion.  12.2K damage in one single barrage across three enemies is dumbfounding, awesome, terrifying.  True, that it is under the best conditions, but...  If if you had a level 10 Vulk (which would be easier with hardier capitals), all PM research, and the Missile pact, you could potentially such unheard power such that steamroll, annihilate, decimate, raze, and obliterate would all be understatements of what this would do to your fleet.  Forget everything else!  Just get a few dozen colony frigates, a few dozen overseers, some sentinels, and 16 Vulkorases.  12240 damage per barrage but from 16 ships so you are dealing 195,840 damage per volley!!!!!  Nothing could survive that.  Nothing.  Even 16 Marzas are only dealing a maximum of 32000 damage with Missile Barrage to any given target.

 

Have I made it clear how incredibly OP that would be?  Forget Scramble Bombers, even forget the original Malice!  That would make this ship undeniably the most powerful in the game by such a wide margin that a fleet with even one Vulkoras would be known as a capital slayer fleet.  Let alone 16 of the monsters.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

Volt, we don't need caps competing with noncaps on dps.  That's the problem with the OP's suggestion, and Twilight's.  Why would anyone want that?

It's simple as hell.  Their role is to support the fleet with special abilities.  Right now they can't do that because they auto-explode whenever an enemy fleet shows up.  The solution is simply to buff their survivability against non-caps.

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

Did you not read the previous post?  I was saying that the way in the OP is severely OP.  Yes I was arguing against myself, but still...  I think that BS's should at least provide some fire support to allied ships.

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

It's not like I want a buff to ALL of the battleship's batteries, either.  Just the primary weapon system for each one.  I do agree that capships support the fleet with abilities, butthat should not be their only role, and at least the way they are described in the lore, it was the intent to make capitol ships strong all around.  Just not to the point of making them OP.  I think a slight boost to primary batteries on BATTLESHIPS ONLY would help them fulfil their role of combat support perfectly.

Just because Capitol ships are used solely for abilities now, does not mean that is right.  The descriptions specifically give them a role if you read the manual, and the Battleships read "Combat".  To me, that means the devs intended the Battleships, (And IMO, the Carriers, but that's a different post) to be right in the thick of things dishing out the pain.  Other caps like Marza, Akkan, Dunov, and their racial counterparts, I agree they are for support of the fleet in one way or another.  But I firmly believe the Battleship should have a significant presence on the frontline.

Even the ship's abilities scream frontline: 

GRG(Yes, it's broke, but its purpose is to gut the enemy frigates)

Flak Burst(Yes, this is a supportive ability, and while slightly broke, it still fulfils its role, but again, it is a direct damage ability like GRG)

Adaptive Forcefield(IMO, should be passive, but it does add to survivability of the Kol on the frontline)

Finest Hour(Been a while since I even built a Kol, honestly, because I don't feel they fulfil their role properly, but this ability increases regen times on everything I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but does it do splash damage now, or was that a suggestion I read?)

All 4 of its abilities are direct combat in one way or another, making this ship a presence on the frontline(If most of them weren't broken)  But given its damage potential through abilities, the current ammount of antimatter it guzzles, I think adding to its static damage against its primary target would go a long way towards keeping the Kol in its intended place.

Lastly, look at the battleship's possition in a fleet.  They're right there with the Cobalts and Kodiaks, both of which are also front line units.

IDK, maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way, but I haven't seen a reason why it shouldn't be this way yet.  If you can actually say why all caps are for abilities anyway, instead of effectively saying "Because they are"  I'll be glad to re-way my thoughts here, but this is how it appears to me.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

I'm not going to bother with a college grade report on the theory of capital ships being under-powered. Why must it be so complicated? Simply increase damage and armor. Seriously people, aren't we taking this just a tad too far?

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

If you feel it's a waste of time, why post at all?  We're simply trying to come to some common ground so we can submit a majority vote to the devs on what we believe would make the game better.

-Twilight Storm