Entrenchment is both fun and frustrating

IA behavior

I am a single player user as i don't have any internet access in my room. It has been one year since is started playing and i am starting to know quite well how to manage the IA.

My goal when i play is to avoid the boring strategy : entrench in a few planets, make a lot of research, build an invincible fleet, go in rampage that mean that if you wait enough time, you will eventually win (i mean game longer than 5 or 6 hours)

So, usually, i build a small fleet (2 caps, only one supply research) to conquer 5-6 planets within the first 30 minutes and then start pressuring the IA in its frontier world, playing cat and mouse with its. I use the multiplyer tricks i read here : fighting alongside repair bays, using carrier and LRM asap so i am always in the offense. I save a lot of money from building defense (apart to get rid off the annoying siege fregates raid) that i use to make an economic boom (trade ports and so on) then as soon as i have enough ships, i crush the IA (around 1h-1h15 of play if i didn't screw it).

I explain this to you not to make me looking smart as my skills are not impressive at all but to make you see my way of playing.

Thanks to this strategy, i had a lot of intense and fun games in vanilla sins.

Then entrechment came. Great game, the starbases and the new stuff are really cool. Cool enough that i don't want to go back to vanilla sins.

So what's the matter ? Well, the ia in entrenchment has become too boring to deal with. The fact is that starbases are a pain. They are well balanced but they cost so much money that the IA cannot manage to build a good fleet and good defenses. As i save a lot of money from almost not building starbases (always in the offense so i rely on fleets) i win against the ennemy fleet far more easily than back to vanilla sins. if i am fast enough, it doesn't have to build upgraded starbases so it doesn't slow me down. Where the things get really boring is when i move to the next enemy or the next after it. He stars to get real starbases (you know, the weapons lvl 3, health lvl 3 kind). Three scenarios here :

-the starbase is TEC or Advent : i phase jumped afar from it and kill it with bombers (which takes ages in mid game when you don't have 30 bomber squadrons yet and is boring). If i have TEC, i can use the missile launcher if i am rich enough but these things are so expensive and take lots of fleet supply.
-the starbase is vasari : either i wait for missile launchers reinforcements or i try taking with a massive battle. Generally i win but with enough losses for me having to wait licking my wounds and for new ships to come.
-the worst : Vasari starbase with mines and/or a fleet. Really painful as i have to build squadrons of scouts to clean the minefiel before attacking.

I am used to losing ships but it is more exciting in a space battle than again starbase (i mean, last game i played, i destroyed 10 starbases, it becomes humdrum at the end)

My point is that : entrechment has fun stuff but not only does it weaken the IA badly, it completely slows the game down. In a way, it's normal : the name is entrenchment, not space battle but still. I am sure i am going to win as my fleet is better than its (considering the money it spent in defenses) but when i think about the numerous cleaning starbases&structures, i can feel the fun going down.

Thoughts ?

 

 

39,093 views 20 replies
Reply #1 Top

entrechment has fun stuff but not only does it weaken the IA badly, it completely slows the game down.

That is the problem.  Until the AI is reworked so that it more sensibly knows how to deal with defenses and how to use set up its own defenses, it will likely remain this way.

This was also a problem in vanilla, it was just that you needed a huge "fortress" of static defense to make it possible.  Starbases now mean you can more easily set up these impregnable defenses that the AI doesn't know how to defeat.

The only solution currently is to play multiplayer.  Human opponents will rarely throw themselves headfirst at your defenses, and when they do it's because they think they have a trick up their sleeve that will give them the edge.  This is much more interesting gameplay.  As I've said before, in singleplayer starbases are bulwarks, in multiplayer they're speedbumps.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 1
The only solution currently is to play multiplayer.  Human opponents will rarely throw themselves headfirst at your defenses, and when they do it's because they think they have a trick up their sleeve that will give them the edge.  This is much more interesting gameplay.  As I've said before, in singleplayer starbases are bulwarks, in multiplayer they're speedbumps.

He needs to figure out how to get an Internet connection to the computer in his bedroom first.  Maybe a wireless LAN card or a very long ethernet cable would do the trick.  It must be a drag not being able to use your own personal computer for Internet surfing.

Reply #3 Top

I've been finding lately that smaller maps 10-20 planets are challenging against a unfair ai(researsher). You dont have the resources to build up to top levels and THEN attack. You have to fight w quite small fleets for every inch, it's quite satisfying. plus you dont tech up till the very end.

Reply #4 Top

I think instead of just arguing for him to join MP we should be rallying to make SP more interesting, by creating a more challenging AI that will help draw players to MP. The AI will work as a BootCamp before they work their way up to MP.

Right now the AI does nothing to challenge the players. and so far SP is the preferred gameplay for SoaSE. If the AI can be reworked it might actually give a more balanced play that will give SP players a confidence that they can go online and face players online and wont just be walked all over.

 

Reply #5 Top

You know. We have a billion and a half threads about modding, and three and a half billion posts bitching about the AI. As a coding illiterate I am wondering: Can anyone MAKE a better AI?

Reply #6 Top

Quoting 52500, reply 5
You know. We have a billion and a half threads about modding, and three and a half billion posts bitching about the AI. As a coding illiterate I am wondering: Can anyone MAKE a better AI?

Then there would be a thread saying how much the modded ai sucks. :fuzzy:

Reply #7 Top

While that might be true, I still think its funny that no one has tried.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting 52500, reply 5
You know. We have a billion and a half threads about modding, and three and a half billion posts bitching about the AI. As a coding illiterate I am wondering: Can anyone MAKE a better AI?

It would be interesting if people could make AI mods because then there would be a competition in the marketplace to see who could make the best one, with people picking and choosing good ideas from other AI mods until the best possible AI was found.

Reply #9 Top

It would be interesting if people could make AI mods because then there would be a competition in the marketplace to see who could make the best one, with people picking and choosing good ideas from other AI mods until the best possible AI was found.

Careful about how you word that, someone might think you believe in a free market. Then the unions will get involved.. we'll all be screwed.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting 52500, reply 7
While that might be true, I still think its funny that no one has tried.

that is because we cant get to the source code for the AI, at best we can fiddle a few numbers in the Game Constants file (which only effects how often they do things, like build ships and research, has no bearing on attack abilities)

Reply #11 Top

Quoting 52500, reply 5
You know. We have a billion and a half threads about modding, and three and a half billion posts bitching about the AI. As a coding illiterate I am wondering: Can anyone MAKE a better AI?

I am a Supreme Commander fan, and a fellow with the screen name of Sorian made an excellent AI that beats the pants off the stock AI and makes the game run faster at the same time.  He was recently hired at Gas Powered Games to work on Supreme Commander 2, largely due to his excellent AI modding work which he had done for free.  So, there is potential payoff for folks who want to put enough effort into a mod!

Reply #12 Top

I was thinking that IA was hard coded and couldn't be modified. Was i wrong then ?

Reply #13 Top

you hear this IC......................you need to hire those guys over there in Distant Stars......

Reply #14 Top

 

I'm not a programmer, but my understanding of how things work is that there is a distinction between source code and "cooked" code.  (I forget the word for transforming source code into the code on the game CDs, compiling I think.)  Anyway, you can't really change the compiled code; you have to have the source code and you can't really reverse engineer the source code from the compiled code.

Reply #15 Top

I 'm coming out of lurker mode to throw my two cents. I prefer single player games and I have been waiting very patiently for Ironclad to improve the AI and perhaps focus somewhat more on the single player experience. Since it seems the developers cater mostly to the multi-players I am starting to realize that I may have to write off Sins as a game that had great potential but failed to meet my expectations. I am hanging on to see if the Diplomacy mini expansion throws a bone over to us single players.

If I could persaude the developers to make two changes to improve the single player experience I would ask the developers to change the AI coding to allow for user modding and also add a moddable random event generator to create a more dynamic experience throughout the game.  One of my favorite games is the Medieval 2 total war, and the modding community improved upon a weak Vanilla AI experience to a semi competent one. Since Sins already has a decenting modding community it wouldn't take long for someone to develope a interesting AI experience.

I know I am not the only person on this board who prefers a single player game experience.  I have been lurking on this board long enough to know this to be true.  I would say there is a sizable population of players requesting an improved AI overall.  Back to lurking for me.

 

 

Reply #16 Top

It is impossible to mod the AI.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting EvilTesla-RG, reply 16
It is impossible to mod the AI.

would not say impossible, more extremely limited, you can use the Gameplay Constants to improve some factors of the game (for example, make them more willing to build bigger fleets, use defensive buildings more, and do more research)

What I would like to see is the ability to modify what they research, what they build, and even if possible orbital emplacements, but sadly we cant do even this simply thing.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting cynicalP, reply 15
I 'm coming out of lurker mode to throw my two cents. I prefer single player games and I have been waiting very patiently for Ironclad to improve the AI and perhaps focus somewhat more on the single player experience. Since it seems the developers cater mostly to the multi-players I am starting to realize that I may have to write off Sins as a game that had great potential but failed to meet my expectations. I am hanging on to see if the Diplomacy mini expansion throws a bone over to us single players.

I really don't think they cater to online multiplayer; they know where their bread is buttered and that's with the 99% of purchasers who only play single player.  However, for various and perhaps practical programming reasons, the AI just isn't moddable.  I do agree with you though that it would be good if it could be modded and also if the game had a less opaque random map generator.  The online multiplayer game could use plenty of improvements, too, such as auto-downloading for Galaxy Forge-made maps, built-in voice comm, fewer minidumps, a fix to allow minidumped players to rejoin games, up to 7v7 games, and player records tracked by CD-key, etc.

Out of curiousity, if you want more challenging opponents, what is your reason for not trying it in online multiplayer?  (I'm not implying that your reason is illegitimate or bad, I'm just wondering.)

 

Reply #19 Top

After the Diplomacy mini expansion im hoping to see more game improvement aimed addons. Its a really great game, and I enjoy the fact that its not some 10 minute time waster but something you put much thought and time in to accomplish your goal. I just wish there were somethings that could be addressed that opens the door for more compatability and access to alternatives when it comes to gameplay. AI and others mentioned here and throughout the forums should be the devs priority once they establish Diplomacy and can actively give the individual player not just modders the ability to affect ingame play. with different maps better tracking of records, an AI that gives player better accessibility of online play. Jumping from SP to MP is like walking from one dimension to another. Rarely do you accomplish anything in SP that will truely set you up for success come MP. Id like to see the AI better resemble techniques and tactics that are actually intelligent.

Reply #20 Top

I find competitive too stressful, I rather play at a leisurely pace. Also, while I enjoy a challenge I don't enjoy getting my behind handed to me. I generally find most games have an AI level that provides enough challenge to keep me interested. Unfortunately, Sins AI is tad predictable and even I can exploit it at hardest level (which really isn't saying much since I rarely find myself overcoming the hardest AI level in other games) . It's unfortunate they designed a hard coded AI. As previous posters mention stuff like build order, tech levels,  emphasis on defenses are usually moddable in other games I have played. It's amazing how a few tweaks can change the dynamic of a game.

 

Anyways, good luck with your recruitment drive DirtySanchezz. I definately would like to see this game succeed and satisfy both multi-player and single player populations.  I was instantly lured to Sins because of my love for games like MOO and Gal Civ series. The tactical space battles in Sins is just awesome.