Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
                                                    Ryat                        Sivcorp               Runesia
                                                    DirtySanchezz           GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile               Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike            lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                  Kitkun                 Agent of Kharma
                                                    Hrabandur               -Ue_Carbon          Qu4r 
                                                    CrazyElectron            Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

 

No Change Needed-

 

 

 

1,701,595 views 913 replies
Reply #826 from Sins Forums Top

Have you ever fought a good Vasari player. They warp in and immediately mine up your system. Overseers boost the constructing starbase to full health before you can blink. If you're not back in two or three minutes, they have your world locked down. That starbase has overseer support, the overseers are protected by a minefield, and the Vasari a big fleet in backup. The Orkulus is a powerful assault tool. Expensive and less efficient? For sure. But still one of the most powerful tools in the game.
Uhhh... any other race wouldn't bother with mines and starbases and all the fancy stuff, they would just give you 40 more HCs in the face, good night.
Expensive and less efficient? For sure.
Period.

Someone check me and explain what, if anything, I'm doing wrong? Cuz I get the same numbers for phase Missiles and Pulse Guns, but not Desints

I downloaded forge tools specifically for you kitty, and though I do not  know if I opened the right file (at first I thought I did, now I think it might've been an old one or whatever... still... I dunno).

damageEnums

            AttackType "ANTIMODULE"

            DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"

            DamageApplyType "OVERTIME"

            DamageType "ENERGY"

            WeaponClassType "CHAOSBOLT"

      DamagePerBank:FRONT 164.0000

      DamagePerBank:BACK 164.000000

      DamagePerBank:LEFT 164.000000

      DamagePerBank:RIGHT 164.000000

      Range 6000.000000

      PreBuffCooldownTime 9.000000

      CanFireAtFighter FALSE

      SynchronizedTargeting TRUE

      PointStaggerDelay 0.900000

      TravelSpeed 1300.000000

      Duration 0.000000

In your quoted data it said 328 instead of 164. That's possibly where your double damage comes from. Are you sure your game isn't modded?
164/9(seconds)*4(banks) = 72.88888 ~ 73 DPS as stated in game, so it seems to be correct.

What also makes me wonder is the green duration. I've read somewhere that the "Duration" means over how long the damage is applied. What's the point of OVERTIME damage with zero duration? Illums have it set to 2.50000.
One of those crazy nights, IC?
a bug?
Duh®?

Reply #827 from Sins Forums Top

Perhaps it has to do with the size of the projectile.  I've never zoomed in close enough to tell, but perhaps the round isn't created in one instant, but rather over time.  That would also explain it.

Either that, or the devs got bored of putting backloaded... ;P  

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #828 from Sins Forums Top

In your quoted data it said 328 instead of 164. That's possibly where your double damage comes from. Are you sure your game isn't modded?
Oh geez. I've been pure Fail lately. Yeah, I was looking at the wrong folder. Sorry for annoyin' ya. :X

*facedesk*

 

:fox:

+1 Loading…
Reply #829 from Sins Forums Top

@N3- "duration" actually is used to control how long a beam weapon's effects are applied. Not the damage, but only the effects.

Damage apply types (BACKLOADED&OVERTIME) control how damage is applied to a target.  BACKLOADED damage applies all damage from a given weapon when the last particle effect/effect hits the target; OVERTIME simply applies the same amount of damage but over a duration instead of all at once.

Ironically, the only time I've ever used BACKLOADED damage for custom ships in mods I've made is when a ship has a single weapon hardpoint firing a single effect. I simply prefer OVERTIME damage for anything else due to the greater realism.

Reply #830 from Sins Forums Top

Uhhh... any other race wouldn't bother with mines and starbases and all the fancy stuff, they would just give you 40 more HCs in the face, good night.

First of all, 40 HC's - before we even start counting support - costs more than a fully upgraded starbase.  Secondly, they'll take significant losses if they charge a fully upgraded starbase without support, and if the starbase is supported by even a couple good support cruisers they'll probably lose.  And if your opponent has a good fleet nearby that's suicide even if the starbase isn't fully upgraded.

The Vasari starbase attack, however, is great because it doesn't require you to send a huge fleet component or even to outnumber the enemy.  Using the minefield as a protective area and your overseers for heals, it takes MASSIVE force (usually twice as much fleet as the Vasari has supporting the starbase) to route it out.  That's expensive to do, for sure, but it's powerful in a way that 40 HC's can never be. 

Reply #831 from Sins Forums Top

Sb as an aussult makes up in locking down a system and force projection in that system.40 hc =400 fleet supply.30hc +fully uped sb = about same fleet supply.Meaning you win.Other guy has to up his fleet supply taking a hit on his eco while u can projoect much more force for the supply.Ya its exp to get up and running but it pays itself back easy by winning you a system and locking it down.Very handy tool.Did you guys look at my replay?Proves how a much smaller vas fleet can take down a much larger tec army + eco.Ya I got fed some but I didnt have any tp or neutrals and my ally didnt have tp that I saw.My enemy had 2 deserts filled with tp with an excellent eco and I beat him.Vas already have good tools for the job.It also proved how effective offensively the orky can be.I crippled his eco with orkies while he tried to deal with my fleet.Im not even talkin about a spammer he had hc hoshis flak and large numbers of javs.You cant do that crap with other sbs.Vas can very easily this patch take up the number 1 slot because of the orky.

Reply #832 from Sins Forums Top

Sorry Darvin, I should have clarified. The Orkulus is not efficient enough to assault defensive positions. It doesnt matter if ruiners can lock down a planet if the Orkulus can't break through the Defenses already in place. And eveything fully upgaded on both sides, the Orkulus won't be able to do it because its the MAIN weapon it uses to destroy structures is not upgradeable, where as all the buildings it would use that weapon against are. I have played the BEST Vasari players, and I guarantee you all of them would say that they'd rather use bombers to attack defensive positions then waste the time and money to build an Orkulus that can't even handle the defenses on its own. But whats a Vasari player to do if Bombers aren't a good option. God forbid there be a Kol or two, or a Halo or two guarding the structures.

If you were to take the cost of just the Starbases construction and 8 upgrades(sb/weapon/hp/armor/ability techs aside) and apply that cost to Orgrovs, Adjudicators or Carriers, you'd have a VASTLY superior structure busting force (and a halfway decent fleet busting force if you went with carriers).

Dont get me wrong, disintegrators are pretty good early game, and decent mid-game, but late game they dont serve their purpose. Thats why they need to be upgradeable. They need to be able to overcome the added armor/hp/shields/shield mitigation/repair of late game structures.

Reply #833 from Sins Forums Top

Doesnt the 3 weapons up the weapon damage by 20%?Thats basically what your askin for anyway.

Reply #834 from Sins Forums Top

 

Let me illustrate what I, and I belive n3rull mean:

 

Lvl 2                               Lvl3                          Weapons techs              Defense techs (+10%)    

 

Orky-

Pulse Gun:143------------> 179          +20%                   214                                 235            

Disintegrator:73-----------> 87                                       87                                 95 <max dmg

Phase Missile:130--------> 156          +30%                    202                                 222

Total: 346--------------->  415                                     503                                 552

 

Argy-

Laser:117                                              +20%             140                                154

Beam:128                                              +20%             153                                168

Missile:120                                            + 30%             156                                171

Total: 365                                                                   449                               493

 

Tranny-

Laser:106                                            + 30%               137                              150

Psionics:120                                                                 120                              132

Plasma:128                                        + 30%                 166                              182

Total: 354                                                                  423                               465

 

 

 

So heres a chart based on the infocards, lets evaluate. At lvl2 Orky does the least amount of damage. Lvl3 puts it up above the others, and keeps it there. After all the upgrades, Orky does the most damage, which is fine considering it has no AOE abilities but can move anywhere in the grav well. Heres where I got a problem- after all upgrades, disintegrators only do 95 damage. Now against ships I get that thats somewhat made up for by the staggering pulse gun damage. But against structures? Its supposed to be an assault weapon. Well you get the anti-module bonus so that helps. But then later in the game you're dealing with structures that get up to 30% more hp, 30% more shields, up to 72% damage reduced by mitigation, up to 4 shields restored per second, up to 40 hp restored per second and/or up to 6 extra armor (and thats only by other structures, that doesnt include ships abilities). Is it really too much to ask to be able to upgrade disintegrators to do 20% more damage (putting them at a max of 114). I mean that isnt game breaking is it? Will that allow them tear through fleets? No, but it'll add a little bit more damage (anti-module isnt that great against ships, probably the extra damage equivalent of a hand full of skirmishers or assailants) Will that increase their efficiency against defenses? Certainly. I don't see any harm in increasing their assault efficiency, especially since you cant increase your antistructure damage by adding more assault ships or purchasing weapons techs (as the other 2 races can do).

 

Reply #835 from Sins Forums Top

I edited this in way after I had posted my last post, so I figure I'll cut it out and paste it down here:

So... My thoughts: Tie Disints in with Pulse Beam *and* double the upgrade bonus for both weapons.

On an unrelated note, make Magnetic Clouds restore hull and antimatter.

 

:fox:

Reply #836 from Sins Forums Top

I guarantee you all of them would say that they'd rather use bombers to attack defensive positions

Course that's ideal, but as you say:

God forbid there be a Kol or two, or a Halo or two guarding the structures.

And that's when you bring out the Orky and you choke out the enemy.  Not ideal, but it's very reliable.  Yeah, the Orky won't beat a fully upgraded starbase in one go, but if you knock out the repair bays, you're free to back off, use Ogrovs to restore your starbase, then go back into the fight.  You'll eventually break the enemy down.

Orgrovs, Adjudicators or Carriers

Yeah, come at a starbase with starbase killers and you'll win.  Those units get minced by fleet support, though, so you really have to win FAST before the enemy can get back.

 

Making the disintegrator a better weapon is on the level; the only thing I'm rejecting outright is giving the Orky uncapped area of effect abilities.

Reply #837 from Sins Forums Top

outright is giving the Orky uncapped area of effect abilities.

I disagree but I do see your point. Anyways as for "choking out" you enemy, if you happen to take out enemy repair bays, whats to say he doesnt rebuild them while you're healing up the Orky? If you're attacking his territory you have to worry about more than just repair bays. YOu may have overseers, but then again he may have hoshis, guardians, subjugators, adjudicators, orgovs. If you're fleet is there and you spent the time to build and fully upgrade an orky, wheres his fleet? I've been on the vasari side of this equation. I played a game against howler, and we jsut stalemated at his HW for like an hour an a half. By the time I finally gave up (due to ally AI death) I had Overseers, a fully upped Orky (I ended up using the last upgrade for debris vortex :( instead of frontal shields, woops) and around 80-100 bombers. He had his SB, 20 or so flak, a couple of Kols, repair bays and hangars galore, and eventually his ally built an Orky in the well too. I mean this was awhile ago and I made mistakes, but it shouldnt have been that difficult to crack that defense. I went in, blew up plenty of buildings, but had to pull back everytime, and while healing up, hed just rebuild everything. Im not saying the defense was unbreakable, Im just saying that had I been another race, it certainly wouldnt have taken very long.

Reply #838 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Deceiver_0, reply 834
 


Let me illustrate what I, and I belive n3rull mean:

 

Lvl 2                               Lvl3                          Weapons techs              Defense techs (+10%)    

 

Orky-

Pulse Gun:143------------> 179          +20%                   214                                 235            

Disintegrator:73-----------> 87                                       87                                 95 <max dmg

Phase Missile:130--------> 156          +30%                    202                                 222

Total: 346--------------->  415                                     503                                 552

 

Argy-

Laser:117                                              +20%             140                                154

Beam:128                                              +20%             153                                168

Missile:120                                            + 30%             156                                171

Total: 365                                                                   449                               493

 

Tranny-

Laser:106                                            + 30%               137                              150

Psionics:120                                                                 120                              132

Plasma:128                                        + 30%                 166                              182

Total: 354                                                                  423                               465 

AND NOW come the time you have to remember that Tranny and argo does capitalship type damage with all weapon, meaning they all do 100% to everything except caps, light and structures, to which they do 75%.
At the same time disintegrators do anti-module which hammers down the laughably low damage against light and medium armor while pulse guns have anti-heavy which is nerfed to boot (50%!) against HCs and caps.

The added damage does not mean DPS. While argo and tranny do 100% of their DPS to everything but LRFs, caps and structures (to which they do 75%), Orky's antiheavy pulse guns and anti-mod disintegrators FOUL ITS REAL DPS royally against LRFs, HCs and caps, which are the most important targets, while boosting its DPS against heavy armor, whole primary user is the CARRIER which by common sense IS going to stay away from the Orky.

THAT's what I mean.

I say again, no AOEs needed.
Just level out the damage on all Orky's weapons to 110-120ish (Pulse guns 110 so that a fresh orky does slightly less startup damage for being able to move, disints 120-130 cause they're short-range and unupgradeable, leave PMs), make them all capitalship type (just like all other SBs have their weapons) and add a damage bonus against structures to disintegrator array just like the the Vulkoras is given by taking assault specialization. Have each disintegrator salvo do extra 50/100/150 or 60/90/120 or whatever extra damage do structures (on level 1/2/3 of offensive upgrade). That would solve the issue completely, because the lack of upgrades for Disintegrators would be remedied by the phase missiles' superiority.

Reply #839 from Sins Forums Top

I just disagree with you guys.Orky is best sb in game.Dis tears up structures pretty fast.Its basically the only sb I use in mp on a regular basis.Its not the best defending sb but best all around.I have been attacked with an orky against my sb with overseers healing it while it attacks you dont even need to retreat it to heal.Against a good vas player they are extremely tuff to defend against and you have to have your own fleet to do it.It just sounds like you guys want the orky to do everything byitself.Its spose to be realy hard to crack a heavily entrenched player from all races which it is.Why should it be easy for vas?Another point I have is all the talk about how this is vas anti sb ship.How long it takes to build an orky and up it.Well it takes a long time to research ogrovs and build enuf to destroy a heavily entrenched sb.Also you have to build a heavy fleet to escort them.Same for advent.long time to build 40-50 bombers.You know what?While advent and tec have to fleet up to higher levels to gain these large fleets.Fleeting costs alot of eco you can never get back.Its not so for vas.Orky allows a much smaller fleet to support it and is tons more reliable at what it does then a fleet.Would you rather have 15-20 ogrovs or a fully upped sb supporting your fleet?I think orky.

Reply #840 from Sins Forums Top

From deceiver's chart it appears that orky's do the most damage out of them all.  Even if the modifiers don't favor them with disruptors it still evens out.  If you cut disruptor damage in half it would still put them even with everyone else.  Add that in to the orky's superior tanking abilities and I don't see what you guys are griping about EXCEPT AE attacks which the orky does not need.  Its understandable to want it upgradeable through research, deceiver, but I am not sure that it needs it.  Personally I consider the thing already somewhat OP and would be hesitant to make it further so unless it was nerfed in another way.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #841 from Sins Forums Top

From deceiver's chart it appears that orky's do the most damage out of them all. Even if the modifiers don't favor them with disruptors it still evens out. If you cut disruptor damage in half it would still put them even with everyone else. Add that in to the orky's superior tanking abilities and I don't see what you guys are griping about EXCEPT AE attacks which the orky does not need. Its understandable to want it upgradeable through research, deceiver, but I am not sure that it needs it. Personally I consider the thing already somewhat OP and would be hesitant to make it further so unless it was nerfed in another way.
Are you even <f-word> listening? It's not just the disintegrators doing anti-module damage, it is the pulse guns doing anti-heavy as well!!!

THIS NERFS THE PULSE GUN DAMAGE BY HALF AGAINST HCs AND CAPS!!! THAT's THE PROBLEM!!!
Plus disintegrators , with already laughable DPS, do 25% to LRFs. all summed up gives you that orky deals the LEAST of all SBs unless at offensive 3 upgrade!

your comment either points at your lack of understanding for this game (LFs do about the same damage in the tooltip as LRFs do so I bet they are a fair match for LRFs! Yay!) or your total ignorance of what everybody was saying.

Reply #842 from Sins Forums Top

I do not think I need to defend my knowledge of the game.  If you would like, you can see on the various player lists in the multiplayer section to see how others see me as a player.  You can call me ignorant all you like if it makes you feel like you are winning the discussion that way.  It makes no difference to me.

In my many games played against vasari, I tell you that assaulting an upgraded orkulus is an iffy thing even with a large fleet without the use of bombers.  Even with bombers its iffy if there is any semblance of support.  The point I have repeatedly stressed is that the orkulus trades damage dealing for tanking ability.  It is not underpowered and is considered to be one of the main STRENGTHS of playing vasari.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #843 from Sins Forums Top

Yes, I've heard hundreds of "experience based" arguments.

Like "WTF are you talking about, I've used Vulkoras a thousand times and Assault Spec is awesome for bombarding planets!!!". And then the next patch log brings a fix for an assault spec bug that nerfed Vulkoras' bombardment speed instead of boosting it.

It's big, it's tough and it moves, so obviously everyone sees it as über.

The point I have repeatedly stressed is that the orkulus trades damage dealing for tanking ability
The point I am stressing is that Orkulus trades EVERYTHING - utility, profitability, fleet support AND firepower. It only tanks. It does nothing else. That's why you see assaulting an Orky as an iffy business, cause Orky is tough. You do not see the thousands of credits a TEC player raked up using trade on his starbase, the amount of ships he produced, the profits an Advent player amassed for the increased allegiance given by transy's upgrade. You do not see that when you're facing the thing in battle. Orky can't do anything like that, it needs all the slots just to be able to do the only thing it can do decently - tank.

It is not underpowered and is considered to be one of the main STRENGTHS of playing vasari.
Heh yeah, that's why most people play advent. That's why Vasari are useful only for harassing neutrals. The one thing that needs 15k credits just to be able to tank, deal less damage than its counterparts and have no use beyond that whatsoever is the best thing vasari have. I'm not surprised when they have the worst scout combat-wise, worst LF, worst early-game LRF and the worst HC, plus no synergies between caps.
Yay Vasari.

Reply #844 from Sins Forums Top

plus no synergies between caps.

Yes, atm it hurt. Reason of Many Vas buffs on Caps balance list is creating some synergies between Vasari caps.

Reply #845 from Sins Forums Top

if you happen to take out enemy repair bays, whats to say he doesnt rebuild them while you're healing up the Orky?


Construction frigates are fragile as heck and take 5 minutes or so to respawn.  Killing them off the moment they appear is actually quite easy.

YOu may have overseers, but then again he may have hoshis, guardians, subjugators, adjudicators, orgovs.

Hoshis yes would be a big deal.  Guardians and subjugators less so; they're not much help to a starbase, cept maybe to repulse heavies.  Adjudicators and Ogrovs actually are fairly useless in these situations.  You'd be amazed how easy they are to kill with a few fighter passes, even if you don't have air supremacy. 


As with anything, you're unlikely to kill the enemy when his fleet is sitting there supporting the starbase.  Instead, use this setup passive-aggressively.  The enemy has to constantly keep a large segment of units (more than you, in any case) to keep your starbase in check.  Send the main body of your fleet elsewhere to attack his other planets.


Heh yeah, that's why most people play advent.

That was because of the bugged illum.  We'll see if that persists into 1.05.

Frankly, I think that this version belongs to Vasari.  You've still got a rocky road early game, but if you survive it I think Vasari is now by far the most powerful late game faction.

Regardless of what you choose to believe, the Orkulus is considered one of the main attractions to playing Vasari.  It's brutally effective if used well.  It's not supposed to be a 1-shot wonder, nor an unstoppable defense.  Nothing in this game is, but as far as risky gambits go the Orkulus starbase rush is definitely the scariest.

Reply #846 from Sins Forums Top

Heres where I think you guys are missing my point. The Orkulus is great early, game, its great mid-game, but it not that great at what its SUPPOSED TO DO late game. All Im proposing is making it a little bit better at what its supposed to do in the face of all the different upgrades its enemies can get. You're all correct in that it is one of the Vasaris greatest assets, but the power of it falters late game. It really needs something to help it out during this time, especially since its relied so heavily upon as all you guys say it is.

Its weird that this EXACT arguement has been brought up before by n3rull, but last time I was on the oppposing side. Since then Ive changed my mind due to the poor performace of the Orky as an Assault weapon late game. All Im asking for is a researchable damage boost (+19) to disintegrators to give them it a little extra oomph at taking down upgraded structures and defenses. I know that the Orky is the Vasari's shining jewel, I just want to keep it that way throughout the entire span of a game. Its not a huge buff, its not going to effect the early or mid game gameplay. Its not going to make the thing super OP. Like the 2 damage buff to skirms, its just to help it do its job. Minds, Grey, Darvin, Ive heard from you that you think the Orky is a tank, I agree. Minds says its great at taking down structures, I agree that it is before those structures are upgraded, and if those structures are not in a defensive cluster. But how can you say the Orkies structure killing power (a major part of what it is meant to do) stays consistent after all the upgrades structures and defenses can get? I get that it sacrifices a lot of things to be mobile, but one of those things shouldnt be its structure killing power, because thats THE MAIN reason it moves in the first place, so it can attack enemy structures, so it can be an assault weapon.

Reply #847 from Sins Forums Top

but it not that great at what its SUPPOSED TO DO late game.

With the illum nerf, Vasari are IMO the strongest late game faction.  I don't see a problem.  It's not great at what it does late game, but it's still a useful tool.

Reply #848 from Sins Forums Top

Since the vasari SB is the vasari anti-structure weapon, I see no problem giving the disintegrators an upgrade to help it FULFILL ITS ROLE AS AN ANTI-STRUCTURE WEAPON.  Upping disintegrators wouldn't make the thing OP or allow it to kill fleets any better.  It would just help it DO ITS JOB OF KILLING STRUCTURES.  Ogrovs and Adjudicators don't have problems killing structures, why should the orky?

Reply #849 from Sins Forums Top

Ogrovs don't have problems killing single structures quickly.  Starfish don't do crap to single targets(SBs included) but do better with groups of targets.  They are not that great at any rate and you would be better off with bombers.  Orky at least can damage other things and does decent damage to structures.  It is more comparable to starfish in its anti-structure role but at least it can take a hit and not be wasted resources after a run or 2 of SC without doing what they were built to do(like starfish).

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #850 from Sins Forums Top

Grey, after playing with an orky last night, I'm gonna have to throw out your statement.

I sent a FULLY (repeat, FULLY) upgraded Orky into a cloud of about 10-15 structures owned by the computer (TEC), and it had virtually ALL guns firing on everything - it took around 20+ volleys from the disints to kill ANYTHING.  A group of 10 Ogrovs?  One attack, and it's dead.

Again, I push for a 50% damage increase on Disints.