Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
                                                    Ryat                        Sivcorp               Runesia
                                                    DirtySanchezz           GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile               Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike            lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                  Kitkun                 Agent of Kharma
                                                    Hrabandur               -Ue_Carbon          Qu4r 
                                                    CrazyElectron            Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

 

No Change Needed-

 

 

 

1,701,487 views 913 replies
Reply #801 from Sins Forums Top

(claps eagerly upon reading Deciever's post) Hear, hear! :D

+1 Karma! k1

Reply #802 from Sins Forums Top

But in THIS patch (1.05) I threw around the same amount of illums, supported by a progen, a halo, illusions and guardians at a fully upped Orky and barely made a dent in it. Ggranted I had to kill a baby transcenscia first, and was taking fire from, the survivng half of that earlier fleet, but I had my illums 2/3 the way fully upped and that Orky still raped me illusions and all. So far im liking the reduced power of illuminators, they are still tough as nails, but they dont just rip everything to shreds anymore.

That was you, Deceiver?

Keep in mind I had pretty well researched every relevent technology on the military tree (maxed out phase missiles, armor, hull, starbase weapon banks and durability upgrades, etc.) so that starbase was pretty well as good as they come. 

 

 

 

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #803 from Sins Forums Top

Aye it was :) . You had a fully upgraded starbase, absolutely as high as it gets, as you stated, but I also had my illuminators research quite high up, and it wasnt a shred fest as per normal. Took me awhile just to get through that Transcencia with 1 defense upgrade. The bug fix made a massive difference. I'd say had I had my upgrades maxed and it was just Your orky versus my fleet, I still probably woulndt have beaten it, and if I did, it would be by a hair.

Reply #804 from Sins Forums Top

Tell me Deceiver, wouldn't a fully upped Transcencia screw you just as royally with its meteors and disorient? Wouldn't an Argonev be as much of a nuisance when backed up by a small fleet, permanently repaired and rebuilt?

Being a tough nut doesn't solve the problem. Sure I can max all armor stuff in the military tree, give the orky 4 def ups and frontal shields and 2 offensive ups. But that orky will be doing less than a trancy without meteors, 20% less against lrfs and 30% less against HCs; it will not have enforced loyalty, not strike craft, no debris vortex, no merchant bays. It gives absolutely no profit to have - all of that only in order to be NO WORSE in combat than any other SB with 2 less ups bought and 5500 creds not spent.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Orky should do the same amounts of damage as other SBs do on the same offensive ups level to ships. It should do slightly/moderately more to other starbases than they do to it. Building 4th def and 3rd off upgrades should make the orky royally better in combat, because there is just one more slot available for enforced loyalty and THAT's IT.
Right now, building 3rd off finally allows the orky to catch the other damage-wise, cause below that upgrade level it is WORSE.
Stoopahd.

Reply #805 from Sins Forums Top

Orky - can - move.

Other - SB -can't.

 

IMO it is reason of relatively weaker offence capabilities of Orky. You pay % of firepower and armor for ability to relocate your SB if needed. Of course in direct combat 5up Orky will die to 5Up Transcendentia or Argonev... but none of them is able to move.

Anyway - what is wrong with increasing number of Orky build slots?

Reply #806 from Sins Forums Top

I didnt say the Orky was fine now, not by any means. I was just saying it withstood an illuminator fleet no problem, and its a relief to know that illuminators wont be swatting orkies like flies anymore. I still think that the Orky deserves some sort of large fleet punishing ability to keep late game fleets from just running it over like roadkill. I think the root of the problem is that disintegrators dont scale like every other weapon. As the game progresses, shields get tougher, hulls get stronger, armor get thicker, but disintegrators stay the same. I really think the 3rd offensive upgrade (for as expensive as it is) should also upgrade the firepower of disintegrators, and I certainly woulndt mind if it added some splash damage to them to allow the Orky to damage more than a set number of targets like the other SBs can do (ie meteors/BRB). At least something that will make a person think twice about trying to just plow through the Orky and overwhelming it with numbers. I see the difference as a Damage cap: Orky can only do a set amount per second to a fleets hp, where as Argonevs BRB can erase a fleet in an instant, and Trascenscias can pummel close proximity fleets with space rocks. Both those abilities give those Starbases an unlimited potential for damage, where as the Orkies is fixed. I think splash damage on disintegrators would allow it more potential damage, without imbalancing the fact that it moves. It would give it a weaker AOE effect than the other two, but an AOE effect nonetheless. That aside, there needs to be a way to upgrade disintegrators damage. As anti-module damage, you can upgrade the damage of Ogrovs and Adjudicators, but not disintegrators, and theres something wrong with that.

Arthanis- The problem I have with increasing upgrade slots is as follows. 1) Increasing upgrade slots would really only serve to better the Orkulus's surviveability, as one would no doubt sink the extra two upgrade slots into its defensive abilities. I dont think thats the Orkies problem though. I think its problem is its capped damage output. The game I played with Darvin today illustrated this point. It took my Transcencia under 2 minutes to destroy half, and critically damage the rest of my opponents illuminators. Had I been TEC, his fleet would've been gone in an instant. The battle with Darvins fully upped Orkulus lasted well over 10 minutes, during which time I could have replaced a large portion of my fleet (it was an end-game battle so I didnt, i was just Kamikazing my fleet into my enemies defenses for Ss and Gs). The problem was, his Orkulus, despite having every upgrade possible, could not overcome my 1 progenitors lvl 3 shield restoration coupled with guardians shield projection. I only started to lose ships when I ran out of AM and the remaining half of my Advent opponents fleet started picking off my ships. Eventually, after a long drawn out fight, the Orkulus finally wore down my fleets overall HP to the point where I started losing ships 2 to 3 at a time, and could not restore shields fast enough due to lack of AM. But what if I had more than 1 progen? what if I had subjugators to help keep my ships healthy? The battle would have gone on for much longer than would against either of the other two SBs. Orky doesnt dish out enough damage to overcome repair and support abilities later in the game, where against Trannies and Argies, it doesnt matter how much you can repair and support your fleet, you're gonna take some severe damage. And 2) I would expect quite a bit of protest from Orky haters out there for giving it 2 more upgrade slots than any other SB, no doubt they would cite "THE DAMN THING CAN MOVE!!" as their reasoning. But I agree it really isnt fair to have 1 Sb with more upgradeables than the others. A better solution would to focus on making the Orkies current upgrades serve it better, and maybe give it reasonable AOE damage.

Reply #807 from Sins Forums Top

Deceiver's post above QFT.

 

Orky - can - move.

Other - SB -can't.



IMO it is reason of relatively weaker offence capabilities of Orky. You pay % of firepower and armor for ability to relocate your SB if needed. Of course in direct combat 5up Orky will die to 5Up Transcendentia or Argonev... but none of them is able to move.

You got it wrong Arthanis:

Orky - can - move
Other - SBs - can't

So:

Orky has reduced firepower which it needs to pay double for and waste an extra slot to make even with other sbs,
reduced (as in - none) fleet supporting capability (no boons, no production, no disorient - which helps your fleet as well)
no aoe effects (no red button, meteors, disorient)
no good money-making effects (one merchant bays, crappy colony pods which you don't have slots for anyway!!!)

the orky pays in both firepower AND general utility.

And for what? Moving. Mooooooving sloooooooowly. If something wants to run away, it will. If something wants to skip the orky, it will. Hell, it's even doable to kite the orky around a planet with siege frigs!
Sure, you get to cut the ogrov's range advantage short. That's a big bonus. You get to bring LRMs into disintegrator range - great thing, counting how laughable damage disintegrators do to LRfs. What else... you're not gonna catch carriers, so forget it.

The ability to move is big, but not really big enough to justify the orky being nerfed in ALL its functions.

+1 Loading…
Reply #808 from Sins Forums Top

Ok N3, so what in your opinion should be done with Orky to make this SB balanced?

Splash to Disints?

More Upgrade slots available?

More Healt/damage per upgrade?

Abilities buff?

Reply #809 from Sins Forums Top

Hmm, this is what I think should be done for the Orky's abilities-

1) drop deflector shield, or change it to be better. ATM it just isn't useful in many situations.

2) give it a fleet support-type abilities, whether it's something that cripples enemy ships a la Mass Disorient, or something that heals friendly fleets, or whatever.

3) if that isn't possible, than an anti-SB death beam would be the best option. The Orky simply doesn't have the firepower right now as noted.

Probably an interesting way to buff the Orky would be to make Debris Vortex suck up enemy SC (as suggested a couple page back). This would do 2 things- 1. make the Debris Vortex upgrade very attractive, and 2. make it useful for more than simply healing an Orky.

Reply #810 from Sins Forums Top

So what you guys are saying is that in addition to being very tough to crack and being able to move that you want to give it an AE to make it equivalent to the other 2 SB.  If thats so, I want my transcencia to be able to move and to be just as tough to crack.  That would be just lovely.  Then we can all have orky's and nothing would be different.  I would love to be able to rush a HW with a moving transcencia.  Can I place an order for illums to be tripled in damage too while I am at it?

So without the sarcasm....  you basically said your bunch of illums even with illusions did shit to the orky while he slowly wore you down because you ran out of AM on your shield restore.  My own experience has been the same.  You also say that they should be given an AE as well so not only can you not touch it but it can wipe out an entire fleet at the same time.  It sacrifices some offense by being hard to kill.  That seems to be the way it was intended/designed to be.  Basically any fleet that attacks it has to avoid it like the plague(pretty much what happens now unless you catch it building) and keep running around away from it or you will lose an entire fleet slowly but surely.  God forbid having someone rush your hw with it with a 1 or 2 skirantra because you won't likely be able to do anything but kiss your ass goodbye.  The orkulus certainly does not need buffed.  I am sure it would make quar, howthe, and the other vasari players happy though but being that does not mean its balanced.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #811 from Sins Forums Top

I completely agree with grey here.Look at vas.The thing can move.You put a pji in well and orky is a death trap.Not so for other sb.You just fly past them.You cant really use other sb for offense either.Vas have phase gates.Even one on sb.SO YOU CAN WARP YOUR FLEET FROM ANYWHERE TO SUPPORT IT.You cannot do this with others.If your fleet is away kiss sb goodbye to mass bombers or another vas sb.Add in a few subs and you can never retreat from an orky.Deflector is off for 30 sec you say?Well subs disable for 20 sec?Just one can disable 30-40 ships.The other benefit to orky is vas can use them for offense which cuts down on their fleet supply needs and bolsters their planets.Build speeds upgrades for the orky as well.Sneak a ship past his fleet and start sbing his worlds and killin all his structures and reinforcements.This tactic can make them double back and delay them for min while you build.I have used it.You give up defensive capabilities for offensive.The other sb are purely offensive period.What keeps other sb fleet killin abilities in check is they cant move.Meaning its up to you to sacrifice your fleet or not.With orky its up to defender when he attacks.Vas have the tools to defend against any attack.Subs are really op more so then repulse.

Oh ya dont preach to me bout subs tier 6.We are talkin about fully uped sb and huge ilum fleets here.You have neutrals and plenty of time to get 5-10 subs or phase traps.Even overseers more easily.Vas have hands down the strongest disabling and healing abilities of the game.They have best mines ingame too which can destroy entire fleets same amount of time as meteor.

Here is what i mean.used ork on back worlds and defeated much larger fleet without an orky even.

http://www.filefront.com/15501241/Mine%20ownage.record

Reply #812 from Sins Forums Top

What is wrong with increasing Orkulus upgrade slots to 10? IMO it has potential of fixing all problems. Vas player to get same firepower as Advent/TEC player will be still forced to buy 2 extra upgrades, but will still have enough slots for something extra.

Reply #813 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting N3rull, reply 807
Deceiver's post above QFT.

 
Orky - can - move.

Other - SB -can't.



IMO it is reason of relatively weaker offence capabilities of Orky. You pay % of firepower and armor for ability to relocate your SB if needed. Of course in direct combat 5up Orky will die to 5Up Transcendentia or Argonev... but none of them is able to move.
You got it wrong Arthanis:

Orky - can - move
Other - SBs - can't

So:

Orky has reduced firepower which it needs to pay double for and waste an extra slot to make even with other sbs,
reduced (as in - none) fleet supporting capability (no boons, no production, no disorient - which helps your fleet as well)
no aoe effects (no red button, meteors, disorient)
no good money-making effects (one merchant bays, crappy colony pods which you don't have slots for anyway!!!)

the orky pays in both firepower AND general utility.

And for what? Moving. Mooooooving sloooooooowly. If something wants to run away, it will. If something wants to skip the orky, it will. Hell, it's even doable to kite the orky around a planet with siege frigs!
Sure, you get to cut the ogrov's range advantage short. That's a big bonus. You get to bring LRMs into disintegrator range - great thing, counting how laughable damage disintegrators do to LRfs. What else... you're not gonna catch carriers, so forget it.

The ability to move is big, but not really big enough to justify the orky being nerfed in ALL its functions.

N3, you just about said it all.

Being able to move does NOT instantly make the Orky superior to other ships.  Damage dealt is downright pathetic, and one of those damage types ISN'T UPGRADED AT ALL.

So, to reiterate, my opinions on what should happen:

1.  Boost Disint. damage by 50%
2.  Make Pulse Beam Upgrades affect Disints.
3.  Change Pulse Gun damage to Composite (Currently Anti-Heavy (good luck catching carriers!))

Seriously, people, the Orky's had to put up with enough bullsh!t already.

Reply #814 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Arthanis, reply 812
What is wrong with increasing Orkulus upgrade slots to 10? IMO it has potential of fixing all problems. Vas player to get same firepower as Advent/TEC player will be still forced to buy 2 extra upgrades, but will still have enough slots for something extra.

Why should Vasari have to pay for two more, enormous-cost upgrades just to be on par with Advent and TEC? It sounds like a great idea but the costs for upgrades makes it negilable.

Reply #815 from Sins Forums Top

Why should Vasari have to pay for two more, enormous-cost upgrades just to be on par with Advent and TEC? It sounds like a great idea but the costs for upgrades makes it negilable.

 

Because you start with mobility. Nobody force you to build all 10 upgrades, but if you want, you can get mobile equivalent of ther factions SBs (for extra cost). In simple words you pay for extra mobility - if you want extra mobility AND same firepower as other space stations, you must pay extra. Anyway, If you already have 8 upgrades buying another 2 is not going to kill your eco.

Giving Orky same firepower for same cost as other factions have AND keeping it only one mobile Space Station in game (mobility is giving HUGE versatility boost) is unfair. IMO these 2 extra upgrade slots are giving Orky nice boost without making it OP in anything (since everything cost...)

With 10 upgrades you can build all armor/weapon upgrades + lvl2 ability upgrade and you still have slot for something extra (tradeport? phase stabilizer?). Yes, you pay slightly more then TEC/Advent - but don't underestimate value of relocating SB during/before/after battle...

Reply #816 from Sins Forums Top

1. Boost Disint. damage by 50%

2. Make Pulse Beam Upgrades affect Disints.

3. Change Pulse Gun damage to Composite (Currently Anti-Heavy (good luck catching carriers!))
Points 1 and 2 would suffice.

If we do 3., we may go beyond the call of duty. The anti-heavy is there to balance out the anti-module on disintegrators. Let me check....
I updated my excel chart (which I used to give these results) with the composite attack type stats and changed the Orky's pulse guns to that damage.
I thought the chart would go bananas, but it didn't. It almost perfectly jumped into position! However, domage done to light armor went crazy high.
Right now a zero-upgrade orky does 27,9 DPS* to light armor. Argonev does 21.9, so that's already better (it's the first off up that screws the deal, because argonev receives another 24DPS while Orky's disintegrators do 4!!!!!!! DPS to light armor). If we change Pulse guns to composite, we would get 55.9 basic DPS* done to light armor! Now that's double the argonev here, that's OP!

No, I think that points 1 and 2 might do. The worst thing is not the LRFs but the HCs, and doing 1 and 2 will help this case immensely. 

I THINK THE BEST WAY TO BALANCE THE DAMAGE on the Orky would be to:

- balance the damage of all weapons (nerf pulse guns to ~120 dps total from 149, buff Disints to ~110 from 73, leave PMs or nerf a bit) to roughly what Argonev does
- make all damage types capital just like all other SBs do.
- give Disintegrators (only) a scalable effect like Vulkoras' assault specialization, which is:
-- on level 1 offensive, each shot does extra e.g. 80 damage to structures
-- on level 2 offensive does e.g. 120 extra damage
-- on level 3 off does ~150.

Voila, all damage fair.

Reply #817 from Sins Forums Top

I still think that the Orky deserves some sort of large fleet punishing ability to keep late game fleets from just running it over like roadkill.

Disagree; the other starbases get these abilities because they cannot move.  It would be too much for the mobile Orkulus to be capable of uncapped area of effect abilities.  I think it's perfectly fair that an Orkulus can be taken down brute force by a sufficiently large fleet, and the TEC/Advent starbases have abilities that can make this effectively impossible.  The TEC and Advent starbases are trivial to avoid since they cannot move, but the Orkulus, especially supported by a fleet, has effective control over the entire gravity well.

Keep in mind that by the time such a late-game fleet that can steamroll an Orky exists, Vasari should have all their important late-game techs, including phase stabilizers which enable them ultra-fast response with their fleets, and possibly their omniscient phase jump sensors to have perfect intel on where your fleet is at all times.  As far as I'm concerned, Vasari would be utterly unstoppable late game if their starbase was stronger than it is now.

Reply #819 from Sins Forums Top

As far as I'm concerned, Vasari would be utterly unstoppable late game if their starbase was stronger than it is now.
so... are for or against tweaking the orky's damage so that it deals similiar pain to the other two SBs with its guns without having to waste an extra 2700 creds and an upgrade slot?

Also I disagree that heavy cruiser spams are completely late-game stuff. One can have a decent amount of HCs in 30 minutes if fed. Diplomacy might push that back a bit, but I do not think it would be as dramatic a change.
On the other hand, phase stabilizers are expensive both to make enough labs AND research AND build. I usually find myself building a Kostura before I really find a need for phase stabs.

I do, however, agree that Debris Vortex is enough for the Orky in terms of AOE effects. It can move, no AOEs, that's fine. But its damage HAS to be respectable for the Debris Vortex to work - a progen shield restore spam on a bunch of illums or a hoho spam on a bunch of kodis is enough to nullify 80% of a FULLY UPGRADED orky's damage. That's just wrong! Ok, I can attack only a handful of enemies instead of blasting them all at once, but let's at least make those few targets FEEL IT!

Reply #820 from Sins Forums Top

328/9=~36.4

Does that to all targets before damage type.

Tell me if I'm doing something stupid. Trig test fried my math brain.

I'm not sure what you're doing wrong or whether you really are. Someone (Ryat or you) showed a simple way to add up damage of each bank on Pulse guns and magically got the tooltip DPS. So I figured the tooltip DPS is DPS on all banks, I divided it by four and used the number as my basis.

I think it may be the "DamageApplyType "OVERTIME" " thing that has something to do with the problem.
Either the tooltip lies (which it generally does not when you reap through the numbers), I got misled and my chart needs fixing or that OVERTIME thing screws up your simple calculation.

Reply #821 from Sins Forums Top

Ah, you might be right. I didn't look at the in-game info card.  :X

But thanks, I've been wondering if everyone magically knew something I didn't. :P

 

:fox:

Reply #822 from Sins Forums Top

It sounds against to me.  I don't see how it could be taken another way.  Minds is not advocating that vasari be unstoppable.  The thing is that you want to orkulus to be tougher than the other 2 SB and do the same amount of damage too.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  You want to have it all but thats not balanced.  The orkulus trades damage dealing for tanking ability and mobility.  If an orkulus engages with a TEC or advent SB, it chooses when and how long.  If it goes poorly it can always move out of range.  Plus facing the SB to attack it allows frontal shield to work too decreasing the dps against it.  Phase stabilizers are an option.  Whether you see the merit to research it or not, it has its utility.  Vasari sometimes can be everywhere at once while the other 2 races can't.  That has a LOT of value.

Adding available slots is a bad idea as well especially if its not across the board rather than just vasari(which sounds to be what you are suggesting).  It sounds as if you seek to give unfair advantage to vasari if you just want to give extra to vasari.  The way things are now you have to make a choice about what you want your SB to do so.  Do you sacrifice an ability to have more health/damage or vice versa?  Adding more slots takes the specialization out. 

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #823 from Sins Forums Top

so... are for or against tweaking the orky's damage so that it deals similiar pain to the other two SBs with its guns without having to waste an extra 2700 creds and an upgrade slot?

Yeah, nothing wrong with that.  I'm more speaking about adding uncapped area of effect abilities or other upgrades that would make it dramatically more powerful than it is now.  Bringing its less useful upgrades in line is something I fully support.

Also I disagree that heavy cruiser spams are completely late-game stuff. One can have a decent amount of HCs in 30 minutes if fed. Diplomacy might push that back a bit, but I do not think it would be as dramatic a change.

How many HC's we talking about here?  20?  30?  Those won't roll a fully upgraded starbase.  With support they may beat one, but they won't "roll" it.

I usually find myself building a Kostura before I really find a need for phase stabs.

Depends on the map.  If you've got two front-lines more than 8 jumps apart, phase stabilizers are game winners.  If most of your fighting is within a 3 jump range, you don't need them.  Of course, in these cases we can probably assume your fleet is on standby to support these starbases anyways.

Reply #824 from Sins Forums Top

I see your point Grey, Minds and Darvin, and agree that 10 upgrade slots is not fair. But I still think that it totally SUCKS that disintegrators do not scale with the game, and wouldnt mind if they were upgradeable. I like the idea of tieing them to pulse beam upgrades, since those are crappy anyways. I just cant accept disintegrators doing the same damage when enemy structures can get shields and shield mitigation and increased armor, Hp and repair. The Orkulus just isnt a great assault unit at all, its just not efficient enough.

Reply #825 from Sins Forums Top

The Orkulus just isnt a great assault unit at all, its just not efficient enough.

Have you ever fought a good Vasari player.  They warp in and immediately mine up your system.  Overseers boost the constructing starbase to full health before you can blink.  If you're not back in two or three minutes, they have your world locked down.  That starbase has overseer support, the overseers are protected by a minefield, and the Vasari a big fleet in backup.  The Orkulus is a powerful assault tool.  Expensive and less efficient?  For sure.  But still one of the most powerful tools in the game.