Is there any definitive answer for the defensive 'fleet bonus'

No such bonus, now or ever, according to Brad. (Someone should correct If Im wrong, but I recall him saying that the human player would build superfleets and it would be hard to code it into the AI)..

Check the PDF manual that's downloadable thru SDC. You can't get any more authoritative than that and it does clearly mention a small benefit for fleets that are attacked.



It doesn't give much detail to clarify what that means but it certainly does confirm that such a thing exists.
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Aren't the benefits just that a lower defense-valued ship gets the benefit of "protection" that when the fleet is attacked, it is the higher defensive value ships that are attacked first?

That's the funny thing, Aadik. I've read that post too where Brad clearly explained why he feels that fleet (attack) bonuses would unbalance the game. That is why I was dead certain that this "much proven in gameplay" fleet defense bonus is a bug. However, as Mr Lucky said, it is in the manual as a "tip".

I was taking out dreads with ease by fleeting starfighters in one of my games with the loss of 1 starfighter per dread. The bonus is overwhelming if it is working as designed. We had reports of Avatars being taken out by SFs. Personally, I am going to test it to the extreme and see if I can defeat Excaliburs with fleeted SFs in my games.

I'm also rather puzzled as to the silence of Stardock over this issue after seeing such a number of posts on this.

RayChua, when you say you were "taking out dreads with ease by fleeting starfighters" were you attacking the Dreads, ar baiting them into attacking your SF fleets? How many SFs were in your fleets typically?

Not attacking Drizzt, there isn't any fleet attack bonus so you would need a horde of starfighters attacking sequentially to beat up one dread.

But if you defend as a pack, you could take out an attacking dread and lose probably 1-3 SFs.

Does other people's experience match mine? I think this has been toned down a little in 1.05.071 (although definitely still there.)

Fixed.

Does CariElf's "fixed" mean

"The bonus is a bug and we took it out."

or

"We wanted there to be a bonus, but it was too big."

?

It was a bug.  There wasn't supposed to be a defensive bonus and technically there wasn't.  There was, however, a logic error that was causing the ship to be destroyed.

Then what does the manual mean when it says:

Tip: While combat is resolved one-on-one, if the defender is in a fleet, they do get some bonuses,
reflecting the support the other ships can provide.

(a) All - it is possible for the manual to be wrong, and for it to omit stuff. However, I wrote that sentance, and Brad okayed it, so...

(b) Cari - can you confirm with the guys - my understanding is that there was a bug, and it is now fixed, but that there was also a deliberately introduced bonus. If that ain't so, then I need to start logging bug reports (because I sure see a bonus in my games). BTW, see if someone will provide the formula, would ya? It would be great to get the combat simulator updated to allow simulating fleet engagements...

I would ask that Stardock seriously consider the wisdom behind introducing a fleet defense bonus as that would lead to the inevitable question as to why fleet attack was so unequivocally rejected.

If ships could give covering fire defensively, why not supporting fire on the offensive?

Since when? This (1.05.71) or next patch?

I do not want fleets attacking/defdending together... That would vaporize a big part of strategy in this game! Fighting a war with many small spread combats is much more fun than wars between few huge fleets per empire!
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I agree- I read the manual and was more puzzled than anything regarding the bonuses. On subject, I think the idea of a small fleet modifier (for attack and defense) may have some merit, but there should be some negative associated with it as well- a fleet is less likely to be able to get out of a situation, so to speak. In essence, I could see a slightly positive attack and defense bonus if it were countered with something akin to a speed negative (since its harder to coordinate a fleet) while in battle...

It's fixed for the next update; whether that's another 1.05 or part of the expansion beta remains to be seen.

There were never any deliberate bonuses built into fleets just because they're in a fleet; they were only intended to help move ships around. 

I believe that the sentence in the manual refers to the fact that the best ship for the battle is supposed to be picked.  So if you have a transport and a battlecruiser in the fleet, and the AI tries to attack the transport, it will have to face the battlecruiser instead.

 

CariElf,

Thanks for the clarification. It makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, fleets are too reduce movement micromanagement *only*.

It means though that the weakest part of the game, the documentation, remains an issue. A good manual doesn't have to give all the game mechanics away but it should provide the essentials; and what it does explain ought to be clear, or at least correct.

Saying:

"Tip: While combat is resolved one-on-one, if the defender is in a fleet, they do get some bonuses,
reflecting the support the other ships can provide."

when you mean:

in a fleet "the best ship for the battle is supposed to be picked. So if you have a transport and a battlecruiser in the fleet, and the AI tries to attack the transport, it will have to face the battlecruiser instead."

is pretty poor. Especially for the *new*, *improved* manual.

GalCiv remains a fine game, but there is a lot of tedious trial and error to understand how things actually work.

I must respectfully disagree with this statement. There are 2 specific tactical advantages that it seems fleets provide, above and beyond the micromanagement issue:

1)You can fleet ships together in order to protect weaker ships such as transports and colony ships. This is a big deal!

2) You can fleet ships with high defense/low attack values with other ships of high attack/low defense and get the best of both.

I think that this is what was meant by the term "bonus" in the manual. Not so much a numerical bonus in the calculations, but a bonus in a more general sense, allowing you to do the types of things mentioned above that you couldn't do with single ships.

I'm no expert, though. Just what it seems like to me.

LifeWish:

Certainly your point 1) is valid and I'm sure most people don't send their transports around unescorted.

I'm not sure how well point 2) will work. It will always choose the 'best' ship to take the brunt of the attack, whatever the heck that means. I've heard conflicting opinions on how they decide which is the 'best' ship.

I'm sure the developers at Stardock can decide what works best in the game. But I just want them to tell us what that is! The documentation is, to put it mildly, inadequate.

LifeWish,

To your point 1)

You receive this "bonus" always. Anytime a transport and a combat ship are in the same square, the combat ship will be attacked first. It makes no difference whether they are oficially in a *fleet* ot not.

Tou your point 2)

You receive this bonus never. Whenever two combat ships share a square the first defender is chosen by some as yet unexplained algorithm. It's speculated to be the ship with the highest combination of Attack and Defense values but it is certainly not the ship with the highest Defense value only. In any event, whether the ships are in a *fleet* or not doesn't matter in the slightest, they only have to be in the same square.

Again, fleets only come into play when moving ships—will you do it one at a time or as a *fleet*?

In essence, attacking with a fleet of similar ships is the same as attacking individually with each ship outside of a fleet....though there is no movement required.

OronHaus:

That brings up a related question that has bugged me for some time now. Let's say I have 3 frigates in an official 'fleet,' and I choose to attack a target with that fleet. It seems like one and only one attack happens - my 'best' ship attacks their 'best' ship. It might take me several turns to destroy the target. However, if the ships are not in a 'fleet' I can attack the same target 3 times on the same turn (once with each frigate). That's sounds more logical in many cases. I want to destroy that target now, in one turn, using all my ships. I don't want to send one ship in to fight while the other 2 cheer from a distance ...

Am I missing something?

I think I did see that (though I lost the battle). I un-grouped the fleet and attacked individually by selecting the ship on the right...I think. I'll try again tonight in the hotel (ahh...business trips) and see if I'm accurate. My memory might just be off. Anyone else know?

Drizzt DoUrden,

I believe you are correct my Drow friend. My understanding is that attacking with a fleet uses up one movement point from each ship in the fleet. So in your example, if you have one move left you can attack once as a fleet or three times individually.

Certainly bug-like, if not an actual bug. Really not to hard to work around though.

I agree Mr. Lucky, it's not hard to work around, as long as you REMEMBER! It's like paying for propaganda in a low-morale colony. I NEVER remember to cancel that when I've solved the morale problem. I guess it's a minor point, but from now on I will have to try to remember to un-fleet my ships right before I attack anything. And then to re-fleet them again so they can move together. Sigh ... maybe I'm just in a complaining mood today. We all know the game is great or we wouldn't be wasting time on this forum.

So you've had some experience with the Drow eh? Surprising you're still alive ...