Changes to Sins combat

from Sins Forums

Range in sins is rather unimportant, being in the middle of an enemy fleet is just as bad as being directly in front of an enemy fleet (assuming the same ships are firing at you)

So what i have been thinking about is a change to how the combat in sins plays out. I am not a mod-god so i don't know if this is possible, but what about giving weapons both maximum and minimum ranges?

This way, two fleets would start far apart and would fire on each other with their long range weapons (lrms, caps), then, as the fleets close on one another other weapons (Auto cannons, waves, lasers) would start to fire along with the long range weapons.

At this point, nothing has changed from normal sins, but i propose that the turn rate of lrms and caps be lowered so that mobile ships (mainly lfs) will be able to out-manuever them and hit the support ships in the rear.

At this close range, the long range weapons of caps and lrms would be ineffective and would stop firing. Other weapons, like those on HCs, lfs, support ships, and secondary cap weapons would continue to fire. The main change to combat would be the roles of the different caps and some ships, like the lf.

Battleships have large firing arcs, so they are built for this kind of warfare. Ships like the Marza, however, are more like super-lrms with all their weapons at the front, so they should be protected from flankers.

Lfs have mobility, but in sins now that counts for nothing. They are not used once lrfs are researched. With this kind of combat, they could be used as flankers, hit the enemy in the side where their main guns can't hit them. Of course, they would need their own lfs to counter this.

Lrfs would still counter lfs though, so a flanking attack would be vulnerable at long to medium range.

I think this would add a bit more tactical depth to the combat, and if this sounds familiar to any of you, it is based off the description of combat in Mass Effect.

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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

I'd agree with you that some changes need to be made to the Sins combat system.  The one problem I see with your suggestion is that you've just made Advent (particularly with repulse) into a god.  With their side panels, illums would always be able to hit something (you can't be close up to every illum in the Advent fleet.  At least half of them are going to be shooting you with their side weapons!), and with repulse they're now able to keep all their weapons firing all the time. 

I don't think this would kill LRF in general, either.  All that one would need to do is spread out his fleet somewhat.  You can't get within the minimum range of all the enemy LRF, and the remainder will be shooting at your light frigates.

Personally, I do think increasing teh turn speed of light frigates would be a good idea (rather than lowering the turn speed of LRF).

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Darvin, i was actually thinking about the illum when i wrote that, with side beams they are nearly impossible to flank. I think it could be done if the side beams are made MUCH weaker. Like a marza, they would concentrate most of their firepower straight ahead, with weak side beams.

The advent are already near-invincible in the late game (one reason why i play them) and they do not need anymore advantages.

My idea was to make battles more like artillery duels in the start, and then give lfs some usage without changing their stats.

When you think about combat in space, it seems like mobility would be important, trying to hit the weaker parts of enemy armor. I think something like this should be implemented in Sins, and this hopefully will get more people to think about it.

One feature i would like to see with this is the ability to make small flotillas of frigates that will move together in a loose formation (like a fleet, just not as strict with reforming and all the problems with fleets). This would make it easier to handle the flanking and counter flanking with lfs that is the central component of this new combat style.

I hope some modders aor maybe even devs see this...

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

A minimum range on lrfs has bee proposed before, and personally I like the idea, it gives them a definitive weakness that can be taken advantage of, plus it would give people a reason to use the 'loose' fleet cohesion so the lrfs minimum ranges overlap less. I've long thought that long range frigates in this game are too powerful, and I agree with Raging Amish that they should have an increased range and firepower at some cost (whether it be a minimum range or low hp or whatever), much like long range units in most strategy games.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

My idea was to make battles more like artillery duels in the start, and then give lfs some usage without changing their stats.
End of quote

One of my ideas was to add a new unit type, an "area of effect" artillery cruiser which would be particularly effective against huge swarms of tightly packed enemies (battleball counter, anyone?).   Advent would have the weakest artillery cruiser, Vasari would probably get the strongest, and TEC would come down the middle.  This would greatly help late game scenarios which are currently just free wins for Advent.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 4

My idea was to make battles more like artillery duels in the start, and then give lfs some usage without changing their stats.


One of my ideas was to add a new unit type, an "area of effect" artillery cruiser which would be particularly effective against huge swarms of tightly packed enemies (battleball counter, anyone?).   Advent would have the weakest artillery cruiser, Vasari would probably get the strongest, and TEC would come down the middle.  This would greatly help late game scenarios which are currently just free wins for Advent.
End of Darvin3's quote

I like this idea, i'm guessing that it would be countered by lfs? because then flanking would become even more important. Lfs need to be made more agile though, maybe not an increase to speed, but turn rate definently. Get in, disrupt enemy support/artillery, and hit somewhere else before the lrfs turn...

This would be a great counter to the battleball, once the cruisers drained the guardians AM on shield projection, the advent would have to spread out and thus weaken the fleet (hopefully) enough to give the TEC or Vasari a chance.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I think LFs definitely need a turn-rate buff. I definitely like the LRF as artillery idea.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

On the topic of artillery cruisers, I posted these elsewhere before:

TEC Torwick Artillery Cruiser (tech level 4)

Abilities:

Incendiary Grenade:  fires a single explosive round which deals large amounts of damage over the target area of effect.  Has long range, but also has a minimum range.  The projectile takes time to reach its target destination, and therefore is less effective against moving enemies.  This special ability has a minimum range as well as a maximum range.

Shock Grenade (researched, military tech level 5):  similar to the incendiary grenade, except instead of dealing damage the shock grenade temporarily shuts down all units (friendly and enemy) caught in the area of effect.  Starbases and capital ships are not affected.

 

Advent Malsura Inquisitor (tech level 5)

Abilities:

Judgment [channeled ability]:  all units caught in the area of effect take damage over time while this ability is being used.  Shield mitigation falls at an increased rate while under the effect of judgment.  Multiple inquisitors using judgment stack for damage, but not for the shield mitigation reduction effect.

Castigate (researched, military tech level 7) [channeled ability]: all units caught in the target area of effect have their attacks and special abiities disabled.  They must leave the area of effect in order to have their abilities restored.  The synergy with repulsion is extremely powerful (push them back into castigate's area of effect...), which is why this ability is so high level.

 

Vasari Jakosul Annihilator (tech level 3)

The Jakosul has a specialized attack; it can target any number of enemies simultaneously with its basic attack (wave  attack type, of course), but they must be within its firing arc and between its minimum and maximum range.  Consider it like a cone version of missile barrage (with correspondingly reduced damage and a minimum range).   It doesn't begin with a special ability, unlike the other artillery cruisers, but appears earlier in the tech tree.  It should have a researchable ability, but I'm not sure what that should be.

 

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Those sound pretty cool Darvin

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

those sound really cool, darvin3. perhaps some sort of phase-out bomb for the vasari cruiser (i presume they would be cruisers, not that it really makes a difference)? would these ships have normal attacks too, or would they be like the ogrov and the solanus?

i also like the minimum range on the lrfs and the other changes proposed in the op. this would create real tactical opportunities for the first time in sins

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Artillery cruisers are great, thanks for the models darvin. Does anybody know how to make those?

I think repulse needs to have a smaller range though, otherwise the advent could push anything trying to flank the fleet right back into the line of fire.

I was also thinking about abilites, with caps like the marza, you would want to keep it out of the middle of the fight and thus most of the enemies would be out of range of its abilities, i am not sure how to fix this since increasing their range would make them much more powerful. (MB or gravity warhead from halfway across the grav well...)

Lastly, the Antorak marauder, with a buff to speed and turn rate would be the perfect cap for assisting the flanking attack, giving the vasari a distinct late game fleet on fleet advantage that seems to be lacking now.