Again, the loud people effect crops up. There may not be very many of them, but they make such a big deal out of it that there appear to be more.

First, I'm overreacting (for those who didn't notice) because I think it's worthy and because I feel tired of many things i read in this forum (many != most). Also bored while waiting for my vacations "to arrive".

Second, it's different to vote for one and ask espionage to be in game yes or yes than to vote for only have it if it's new and innovative (does shiny new in 3d with musical effects and rotable sliders count as new and innovative?). There are systems out there that aren't based on sliders and that could be used. Yet they wouldn't be new and innovative. But they wouldn't be sliders.

People in general didnt like so much Gal Civ II's system (Twilight) but I found it to be the best. Not uber or something but at least it was a system I would actually use, not being overcomplicated and yet it was usefull and I would use it every game. Not like Civ IV's that didn't seem so worthy (it's not bad just not... interesting/easy/worthy enough to use it in every game).

If BoogieBac comes and says "There won't be espionage because we think we cannot do anything better than sliders." (or just any other reason), I'll accept it because Stardock has the final word about everything in the game and if they say "A" it's because it's really "A" and not just an opinion. That later "A" mutates into "B" is unrelated. But meanwhile, I don't think it's a waste of time to have them develop a system (that doesn't ned to be new and innovative or then not use it). I don't think it's fair to think that Stardock cannot do it and/or that we really need an uber system for it.Population as a resource should give you a good idea of things to come (still waiting for that FAQ ffrom Frogboy and see if he explains it to check if it's really interesting or just some streamlined system that adds to few).

The espionage thread is a good example of why espionage should be in. But I personally want it because it adds to the game (altough still seeking one that amkes it good enough... Gal Civ II is somehow close but not enough, not by far) and because combat-diplomacy-magic-espionage-research-economy are the pilars of a solid TBS (yeah, MoM didn't have much espionage per se... it also had a really bad diplo system) but only if you can balance them and not just ignoring some and paying too much attention to others. I want the whole package not just a part of it.

What I don't really know is why I bother writing all this. *reads up* Oh yeah, bored.

 

PD loud people? I'll scorn anyone who deserves it and ignore the rest. Then I'll trust that Stardock can allow the luxury of ignoring them.

My bottom line on the spy system:

If SD determines that sliders is the best that they have time and resources for, I would want it in the game FOR THE SAKE of those that find it important/ I would likely never use it, but there are certainly enough people that it matters to that it should be in.

I would really like to see one of the races be consummate spy masters, I think it was MoO or MoO2, they had a race that was abysmal at research, but it didn';t matter because they just let others do the R&D and they stole it. There were a lot of downsides, one thing was they were pretty universally distrusted if not downright hated. But their espionage was so powerful that it made them serious contenders in the game. The Darloks. Had to Google that.

Anyway, I don't even remember that many details, and honestly it may have just been slider driven espionage as well. I guess what made it good was it was not an afterthought, it really seemed to be well designed and thought out, and if you played them it sucked you in and was fun. I am sorry, but paying 30 credites per turn per empire to get notified by RNG of something happening or the occasional notification that you stole a tech, and also needing tp pay a cost per turn for counter espionage - not trying to be a loud person, but to me that is the opposite of fun.

Another thing that would make spies more valuable, and this has been brought up before, is other kingdoms/empires need to be a bit more secretive about their information. Why send a spy in to find out what techs they know, if you can just open a diplomacy screen, start a trade, and see a list of all their techs?

 

Good luck to you spy folk, I really have hopes that we can have a solid spy system that can deliver on the fun side of spying. I really think a great way of doing that would be to have a Canon race that specialized in be sneaky bastages. Being able to design your own race with those abilities is not enough imo, it just seems to "afterthought-ish".